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Old September 20, 2017, 08:59 AM   #1
Kimio
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Good reading material for the development of revolvers?

I was wondering if there is a good resource out there that can help explain how we eventually went from single loading gate revolvers to break top and ultimately the more well known and iconic swing out cylinder designs for revolvers.

I understand the reasoning behind going from one to the next, but I never did quite know why the swing out design didn't come sooner instead of the break top.

I assume it was due to technological and metallurgical limitations of the period, but having a more definitive explaination would be really neat.
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Old September 20, 2017, 05:18 PM   #2
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Sixguns by Elmer Keith

Straight from the source.
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Old September 20, 2017, 08:10 PM   #3
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I'm pretty sure break top revolvers were around before single loading gate revolvers were around. At least S&W was producing them before Colt was making the Single Action Army and before that everything was percussion caps, flintlocks or something similar. At least that's my understanding - I could be wrong...

The designs were revolutionary at the time. Looking back it's obvious that they are inferior, but they were good enough. It's not like people were going to the range and shooting hundreds of rounds per week. Honestly I'm kind of surprised how many Colts and S&W's are still serviceable 120+ years after manufacture.

The break top revolver has at least one major advantage over the swing out cylinder in that in can eject the rounds in the same motion of opening the cylinder.
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Old September 20, 2017, 08:34 PM   #4
Jim Watson
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S&W American came out in 1870, Colt SAA in 1873.
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Old September 20, 2017, 08:38 PM   #5
Driftwood Johnson
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Howdy

The very first Top Break revolver was the large, Number Three size American Model that S&W introduced in 1870. This predated the Colt Single Action Army by three years. The SAA is the quintessential 'cowboy' revolver and is what most folks think of when they think of a single action revolve that loaded through a side gate.

However Colt made some Conversion Models that converted their Cap & Ball revolvers to cartridges, employing a side loading gate, a bit earlier. The first of these, although not commercially successful, was the Thuer Conversion which first came out in 1869. The Thuer Conversion was followed by the Richards Conversion which was produced from 1873 until 1878. This was followed by the Richards-Mason Conversion in 1877 and 1878. Another Colt conversion simply called the Open Top was produced in 1871 and 1872.

There were also cartridge conversions of Remington revolvers done during the Civil War, I'm not exactly sure of the year. Some of these used a side gate too.
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Old September 20, 2017, 08:38 PM   #6
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The Gun and It's Development by W. W. Greener has a short chapter on pistol development.
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Old September 20, 2017, 08:41 PM   #7
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Yup

Much quicker to dump the empties out of a Top Break and reload than load a side gate revolver one chamber at a time.

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Old September 20, 2017, 09:41 PM   #8
Driftwood Johnson
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Howdy Again

I doubt if you will find all the answers to your questions in one place.

I can tell you that as far as Smith and Wesson was concerned, they made three basic designs of revolvers over the years. The first were the Tip Ups. So named because in order to load them you popped a latch at the bottom of the frame and rotated the barrel up, much like the Remington double derringer. Once the barrel had been rotated up you pulled the cylinder forward out of the frame to load it. Then you replaced the cylinder in the frame and rotated the barrel back down again, snapping the latch into position. Then you were ready to shoot some more.

This photo shows the three different sizes of Tip Ups, the #1 at the bottom, the #1 1/2 in the middle an the #2 at the top. The #1 was a tiny 7 shot revolver chambering a cartridge we would call the 22 Short today. The #1 1/2 was a five shot 32 Rimfire and the #2 was a six shot 32 Rimfire.






This photo shows a #2 broken open ready to be reloaded with six more 32 rimfire rounds. The rod under the barrel was used to poke the empties out of the chambers.






Some of the history of early revolvers is based more on patent law than other factors such as power or material strength. Colt's patents on his revolver mechanism expired in 1857. Up until this time, all revolvers had been percussion, meaning they were loaded with loose powder and ball and a percussion cap was affixed to a nipple at the rear. (yes, there were a few flintlock revolvers, but not many).

During the middle of the 19th Century metallic cartridges were new technology. An employee of Colt named Rollin White had the idea of boring the chambers of a revolver completely through, so a cartridge could be loaded in from the rear. White brought his idea to Colt, but in what was probably the worst business decision of his life, Colt passed on the idea. Probably because the demonstration models were very crude. So in 1855 or so White patented the idea himself.

About that time Daniel Wesson came up with the same idea, totally independently of White. Wesson took the idea to his old partner Horace Smith and Wesson designed a little revolver, which eventually became the little #1 Tip Up. But when they did a patent search they discovered that the idea had already been patented by White. Smith and Wesson attempted to buy the patent rights from White, but he refused to sell. Instead he licensed S&W to produce their revolvers paying him a royalty of 25 cents for every revolver they made.

The White patent expired in 1869. Daniel Wesson was sure all the other revolver companies would be ready with their own revolver designs for cartridges, so he decided to come up with something really revolutionary to catch the others flat footed. This was the big 44 caliber single action revolver that eventually became known as the American model. It came out in 1870 and it was the first Top Break revolver. The American model was a big, powerful revolver, much bigger and more powerful that the little Tip Ups. As it turned out, Colt was busy making Conversion revolvers that converted their percussion models to cartridges, as stated the SAA did not come out until 1873. As already mentioned, the S&W Top Break system automatically ejected all the empties when it was broken open, and could then be reloaded much faster than a revolver with a side loading gate.






The main drawback to any Top Break revolver is that because the frame and barrel are two separate pieces, the frame can stretch over time from powerful loads, so eventually the latch may not be as secure as it originally was.

I can't tell you much about other company's revolvers with side swing cylinders, other than Colt first brought one out in 1889.

The first Smith and Wesson revolver with a side swinging cylinder was the 32 Hand Ejector 1st Model which was introduced in 1896. S&W called these Hand Ejectors because unlike the Top Breaks, which ejected their empties automatically, the side breaks could not employ the same sort of ejector mechanism. Instead the empties had to be ejected manually, or By Hand, by pushing back on the ejector rod.






Smith and Wesson followed the 32 caliber HE with the 38 Military & Police Model of 1899 in 1899. This was the first revolver chambered for the then brand new 38 Special cartridge and it set the pattern for all S&W double action revolvers that followed.

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Old September 20, 2017, 09:59 PM   #9
James K
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"...we eventually went from single loading gate revolvers to break top and ultimately the more well known and iconic swing out cylinder designs for revolvers."

Well, WE (in the US) took that general path, but in other countries the origin of the revolver was the pepperbox pistol. The Colt designers chose to use a loading gate because it worked into the original percussion design, the gate filling the gap originally used for the capping groove; that was part of adapting the tooling for percussion (1851/1860) revolvers with a minimum of change. (Sam was gone by then, but his philosophy of getting by with minimal effort still prevailed.)

Jim
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Old September 21, 2017, 12:56 PM   #10
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So, given that it's not a good idea to eject with a swing out cylinder except straight downward, did the Smith break top, for instance, dump a lot of black
powder gunk around the ejector star upon ejecting when the gun was broken
open in the horizontal position?

Or did users quickly learn to break open the revolver with the muzzle pointing
up?
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Old September 21, 2017, 06:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Sixguns by Elmer Keith
Yep...it's a great read. Rod
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Old September 22, 2017, 09:15 AM   #12
4V50 Gary
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UncleEd - Almost all of the black powder gunk would be in the cartridge case with some residue on areas between the forcing cone and the cylinder face.
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Old September 22, 2017, 01:25 PM   #13
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The picture shows an S&W No. 1 above a Rollin White type .22 from about the same time. It is marked "Made for Smith & Wesson by Lowell Arms Co. Lowell Mass." This allowed the gun to be sold even though it was a patent infringement with its bored through cylinder. Note the Lowell has a solid frame with a side loading gate and a push type ejector rod. I am not sure of its precise date, but pretty sure it predated the Colt SAA. Sorry about the picture not being here. I will use something other than Photobucket.

Last edited by McShooty; September 22, 2017 at 01:32 PM.
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Old September 22, 2017, 01:53 PM   #14
UncleEd
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4V50 Gary,

So none of the gunk within the cartridge case would or could fly
from it and into the ejector star area when the casing was
forcefully ejected with the muzzle pointing down?
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Old September 22, 2017, 02:04 PM   #15
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Here it is.
Smith and Rollin White.jpg
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Old September 22, 2017, 02:22 PM   #16
4V50 Gary
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Oh it'll get dirty as all revolvers do; but it's not the mess that a cap 'n ball will be. At least there's no grease to clean off.
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Old September 22, 2017, 02:42 PM   #17
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Driftwood Johnson is good reading material.

For the fightsman's revolving pistol, Bill Jordan.
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Old September 23, 2017, 12:17 AM   #18
Driftwood Johnson
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Quote:
So, given that it's not a good idea to eject with a swing out cylinder except straight downward, did the Smith break top, for instance, dump a lot of black
powder gunk around the ejector star upon ejecting when the gun was broken
open in the horizontal position?

Or did users quickly learn to break open the revolver with the muzzle pointing
up?
Howdy

I shoot Black Powder out of S&W Top Break revolvers a lot. In fact I never shoot them with Smokeless powder. I shoot lots of cartridge revolvers, rifles and shotgun with Black Powder.

First off, as has been stated, most of the soot gets blasted out of the barrel. Of course some of it gets deposited in the bore, and some gets blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap and deposited on the front of the cylinder and recesses of the frame window near the barrel/cylinder gap. But as has been stated, very little soot remains in the cartridge case. What remains in the case has been blasted against the sides and rear of the case, and stays there, it does not come out of the case until you soak the cases in water to dissolve it.






It would be very awkward to break open a Top Break with the muzzle pointing up. The gun is not designed for that. It would be awkward to grasp the barrel with it pointing up while swinging the frame around underneath. Trust me on this. Instead you grasp the frame with the right hand, (assuming your are a righty) and pop the latch with the thumb of your right hand. At the same time you grasp the barrel with your left hand and rotate it down.

The extractors on a Top Break are extractors, not ejectors. Just like a modern revolver. So if you rotate the barrel down quickly, there will be enough momentum as the extractor pulls the empties out and then pops down again for the empties to be thrown clear. Unfortunately this does not always happen. Just like with a modern revolver, if an empty does not get 'ejected' it can slip under the extractor and be a real pain in the butt to get out. It usually involves some cursing and skinned fingers. I have found the best way to do this is to flick the revolver sideways while rotating the barrel. That way the empties are more likely to be thrown clear and less likely to fall back down under the extractor.

In any case, very little soot falls out of the cases.
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Old September 23, 2017, 12:30 AM   #19
Driftwood Johnson
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Quote:
The picture shows an S&W No. 1 above a Rollin White type .22 from about the same time. It is marked "Made for Smith & Wesson by Lowell Arms Co. Lowell Mass." This allowed the gun to be sold even though it was a patent infringement with its bored through cylinder. Note the Lowell has a solid frame with a side loading gate and a push type ejector rod. I am not sure of its precise date, but pretty sure it predated the Colt SAA. Sorry about the picture not being here. I will use something other than Photobucket.
Howdy

Interesting point. Rollin White, who held the patent for bored through cylinders, had licensed Smith and Wesson to produce revolvers with bored through cylinders. Although he never sold the patent rights to S&W, he licensed them to make revolvers using the idea set out in his patent, and they paid him a 25 cent royalty for every revolver they made.

White set up the Rollin White Arms Company in Lowell Mass in 1861 to help S&W meet the demand for their revolvers. Almost all the revolvers made by the Rollin White company were marked they were made for S&W. White liquidated his holdings in this company in 1864, and the assets were purchased by the Lowell Arms Company. When the Lowell Arms Company started making Tip Up revolvers with bored through cylinders they were in direct violation of the White patent. In his deal with S&W, White had been charged with policing the patent, and absorbing all costs associated with policing the patent. Accordingly, he sued the Lowell company, but did not succeed in making them stop production until about 7500 revolvers had been produced.

The fact that S&W had written into their agreement with White that he had the responsibility to enforce the patent, was because Daniel Wesson was a crafty New Englander who had learned the hard way to cross all the Ts and dot all the Is when writing a contract. He had been burned as a young man when his brother Edwin dropped dead one day and Daniel lost all his personal tools to Edwin's creditors.

I have read that because of his responsibility for policing the patent White died penniless, but I am not sure if that is quite true. However he did have to spend a lot of money chasing down patent infringements.
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