Those Who Have a Concealed Weapons Permit, Please Read.....

[smince]

but my take on it was/is the only one who wins a fair fight is the won who cheats.

"Always Cheat! Always Win!"-Clint Smith

[LICCW]

Funny thing, the situations that i wold have most needed a gun in during my life, I didn't have one on me, and now that I carry for work I have never been in a situation where I felt I needed to draw. I used to wrok in NYC when i first got out of college and I took trains, subways, etc. on a regular basis. I also worked in the family business on the weekends, I was a busy boy. Anyway, being in subways, tarins, and the streets of NYC before Rudy Guiliani cleaned up areas like Times Square taught me situational awareness. At that time pepper spray was even a no no in NYC. You couldn't leagally carry just about anything other than a small folding knife. I was accosted by bums, threatened by lunatics on the subway, saw "bystanding apathy" first hand, etc. Now that I am of higher means, and live in a nice part of the suburbs, and can legally carry "during the normal course of business" I draw upon the lessons learned from my 'ol work days in the city to avoid just about every potential problem I could practically face on a daily basis. So no, I've never had to draw, but I feel we all have more control over that than we may initially think by using that grandfather of all skills, situational awareness. I approach carrying from an avoidance view. If i'm doing a delivery and am thus carrying, I'll go the long way around to avoid going through some lowsy areas if possible. I feel you want to behave as if you are unarmed. Do the things you would do if you were not carrying first, then, knowing you are armed, use it only if absolutely necessary. Some guys fall into a syndrome of "I'm going to get milk at 2 AM if I feel like it, after all, I'm licensed to carry, so why should I not go. I feel like cereal right now! If someone tries to rob me, I've prepared." I'm not accusing anyone on TFL for this behavior, but I have heard guys at the range say stupid things like "I like double action revolvers because if someone comes in my house I wamt thenm to hear the cocking sound and scare the s**t out of 'em". Point is, carry, but use situational awareness (often just common sense) first. And don't worry.

[WhyteP38]

Some guys fall into a syndrome of "I'm going to get milk at 2 AM if I feel like it, after all, I'm licensed to carry, so why should I not go. I feel like cereal right now! If someone tries to rob me, I've prepared."

I've encountered that attitude before. That's when I begin asking questions.

"How do you know your gun or ammo won't malfunction?"
"How do you know you can draw your gun before the BG stabs or shoots you?"
"How do you know the BG isn't a better shot than you?"
"How do you know the BG doesn't have four or five buddies coming at you from different directions?"

Of course, all of those questions are valid anytime. But there are things you can avoid and things you can't. For the things you can't avoid, be prepared; that's the best you do.

For the things you can avoid ... there are two places to be during a gunfight: There and somewhere else. If given a choice, I prefer somewhere else. Life's a lot easier--and longer--that way.

[smiling cobra]

The best gun to have is one nobody knows you have.....avoidance of confrontation is #1....Not to be a victim is also #1...I feel secure and relieved in the florida gun laws...which also state that the relatives who survive the BG....or the BG...if it is a legalshoot...cannot sue you for your actions in civil court....you are protected as a law abiding citizen should be......I find the cockroach mentality of the slackers who rob,steal,and intimidate who want my "stuff" quite tiresome....and I will not be a victim...remember drink....drive...and eradicate the bad guy responsibly...

[armedandsafe]

I have carried more than not for over 40 yers. I could probably think hard and count the times I've drawn AND presented, but one sticks in my mind. I was a LOT younger and dumber then.

I got gas in Gallup, NM one morning about 02:00 and was pulling out when a young lad jumped into the passenger seat, presented a small .22 revolver and demanded a ride out of town. I whipped onto 66 and took the car up to about 100mph. Then I turned on the dome light and pulled my 1917 .45 from the holster strapped to the door. He promptly threw his gun into the back seat and tried to hide between the seat and his door. I called State Patrol on the CB and they met us in Farmington.

Pops

[Pointer]

!Elmer Keith said that the best way to win a gunfight is to avoid it !!

+1

As a civilian I never had to... I'm glad too!

Walking through "dark" and dangerous "valley of the shadow of death" I always have my hand on the gun because I know I'm not the "baddest dude" in the valley.

[Dennis2]

All sanguine advice and numerous opinions I won't argue with on this forum. A couple respondents have a handle on "when to draw and use"! In my opinion there are three concepts that determines when it comes out of the holster. I feel those are legal, moral and threat. The golden rule comes to mind. Just because something under the law makes it legal doesn't make it moral if other actions were more prudent. When you loose the rounds, there are no taking them back! As a combat veteran who has taken life as his military obligation, it is a life altering experience. You best think if you will be held accountable by our Lord on judgement day for taking a life, regardless if it was legal.

Fortunately I have never had the misfortune to have had to pull a concealed weapon. If I personally ever have to pull it, it will not be for show! I will do everything possible to avoid it, including running, retreating and hiding to avoid having to use deadly force.

We have a God given right to protect ourselves, our property and our family from harm. Using deadly force must always be the very last resort.

[Garand Illusion]

Some guys fall into a syndrome of "I'm going to get milk at 2 AM if I feel like it, after all, I'm licensed to carry, so why should I not go. I feel like cereal right now! If someone tries to rob me, I've prepared." I'm not accusing anyone on TFL for this behavior, but ...

To me, this is America. It's a free country, where everything is available all the time. If I want cereal at 2:00 .am. and I'm out of milk, then by damn I'm going to go get milk from the local 7-11. With gun or without, I have a right to step outside my door and do business with anyone I want to.

If I want to go to a concert or play downtown that doesn't get out until late, then I'm going to do that too. Again, armed or unarmed.

Fear of b.g.'s is not going to make me a prisoner of my own home.

The most likely thing to happen BY FAR is ... nothing bad. None of these places are as crime ridden as some would have you believe.

The second most likely thing to happen is that somebody robs me without hurting me. That would suck, but as long as I'm alive and unhurt when the situation ends I'm fine with that.

The third most likely thing, which is HIGHLY unlikely just about anywhwere in America, is that someone tries to hurt me (likelihood would be higher if I were a woman, of course).

The things is ... we sometimes talk about sheepdogs vs. sheep here. And it's a state of mind. Someone afraid to go out at night, irregardless of what type of weapons they do/don't carry, is a sheep. A sheepdog walks without fear wherever it goes, because that's its nature. Not that it can't be hurt, but that it refuses to let the predators make it live in fear and will stand up to them when forced to.

America is the land of the free and the home of the brave. Not the land of the "free to cower insider their homes with their doors locked after dark because they're not brave enough to go outside."

Be situationally aware, especially when it seems most important, and carry whenever you can, but don't be a victim by living in self imposed fear.

[riverkeeper]

Deleted double post

[riverkeeper]

Never drawn but ‘hands on’ 3 times.

Last was a 3 way night ambush where showing eye contact confidence,OC and a Koppo took #1 out of the game and while turning to visually follow him picked up #2 coming in fast at about 45’(which had just been my 6 oclock), he stopped then walked on toward me & #1…. I backed out toward some good cover at 12’ behind me, pulled OC off hand, hand on jacket pocket piece, scanned and picked up #3 coming in fast at 40 ‘ from my new 7 o clock… faced him and he veered off at 30’. #2 quickly said, ‘Hey guys let’s head down to the station and see what’s happening.’ Some luck, confidence, obvious defense gear and a little scanning OR who knows? EDIT -- This whole thing went down in about 4-5 seconds tops.

Crazy Rott came running at me off leash but controlled him with my voice and gestures.

At night two bangers changed direction toward me when they saw me. Coldly looked at them till about 30' where I held 'precious’ handle as I casually headed into the street between 2 parked cars and crossed the street. They stopped, turned and headed back.

[petemo]

Allot of guys passed on some good info. I have had a permit for as long as I can remember. I guess when I first became of age. I have had military training and I guess the best thing I can tell you is this.
When the gun come out a perp may or may not run. Drugs may be a factor.
A direct and certain threat to life or limb should be the only reason to draw a weapon.It is easier to walk away. It may hurt your pride but taking someone out should ONLY be a last resort.
petemo

[LICCW]

Garand Illusion: Hold on now. Sometimes being careful does not make one a sheep. I kind of take offense to the analogy. I worked as a bouncer in a dive bar in Tampa in college. Saw lots of sheepdogs get the snot beaten out of them because they didn;t know when to avoid wolves and the like. or couldn't tell the wolves in sheep's clothing Under your theory, in our free society, a young woman should be able to walk down the streets in any neighborhood wearing a short mini dress and high heels with no fear of some drunk bothering her. Would you tell your daughter to go out and get you the milk if you knew the local convenience store was the hang out of MS-13 just to teach her not to be afraid. I've been through too many scrapes to start thinking of my freedom instead of my safety.

[Garand Illusion]

When I said to be situationally aware ... if I drive up to the 7-11 and I see a bunch of MS-13 guys (or whatever) I'm not going to go in, armed or not. If I know a particular 7-11 is the hangout of such types then of course I'll drive a few blocks further (though I'd do what I could to get them out of there) and go to another.

Would I want my daughter to go to 7-11 at 2:00 a.m? ... well, yes I would. But I'd like her to be very careful, check out the situation as much as possible, and preferably have a 9 mm close at hand.

Yes ... sheepdogs do get beat up. And a sheepdog chooses his battles and how they are fought whenever possible.

But in the context of the above ... I stand by my saying that a sheepdog is NOT afraid of the predators and a sheep is. I mean no offense, and if I lived in a really bad neighborhood I would have to take some precautions. But I'd rather get beat down once living my life on my terms than never get a scratch while cowering in my house.

And yes ... I did spend a couple of years living in some pretty crappy places! I was lucky enough never to get beat down, But if I wanted to walk around the corner to get a pack of smokes at midnight ... I did it.

[LICCW]

Garand Illusion: I'm not telling you to cower in your house. Believe it our not there is a middle ground which lies between reckless bravado and cowardice. Its called prudence. I have seen way to many tough guys, gangsters, and pyschos end up dead or in jail with the "I'd rather get beat down once" attitude. Funny, when I was in school and the teacher told us to look around and that in 10 years many of us would be dead or in jail. I laughed. Yet 90% of the "tough guys" twenty years later are dead or in jail. I am sure that we are mixing signals here, that you don't mean what you are saying the way I am taking it. Don't tell your daughter its OK to go wherever she wants as long as she's armed. That's a very bad idea. I had a friend who decided to take a walk one night to get a snack at the quick-mart in town. While walking through a parking lot (and oh, by the way, he was a Marine at the time--not a sheep by definition) which was well lit and in a crowded section of own near the bars. He's Italian and had the high and tight. What he didn't know is some blacks and hispanics had a gang related dispute in that area earlier. Seeing him, a group of black gang bangers mistook him for a hispanic. Six of them attacked him. he did well considering the odds, but he was stabbed in the back, slashed cross the face, and shot at. The guy who shot missed him thank god, but he has an evil looking scar across his cheek to remember his walk that night. Yes they caught the guys, well, some of them. Not that he cared. He'd rather not be disfigured. Good luck to you, but please, for your own sake, be careful. And your daughter if you have one.

[Pointer]

The golden rule comes to mind.

Is that like...?

"Do unto others what you expect them to do unto you... but do it first."
No dis intended...

Just mixing in a spoonful of sugar so the "facts" won't go down so "bitter".

[DonR101395]

To me, this is America. It's a free country, where everything is available all the time. If I want cereal at 2:00 .am. and I'm out of milk, then by damn I'm going to go get milk from the local 7-11. With gun or without, I have a right to step outside my door and do business with anyone I want to.

When I said to be situationally aware ... if I drive up to the 7-11 and I see a bunch of MS-13 guys (or whatever) I'm not going to go in, armed or not. If I know a particular 7-11 is the hangout of such types then of course I'll drive a few blocks further (though I'd do what I could to get them out of there) and go to another.

An example of why it's not as free a country as you think. If it were truly a free country you wouldn't worry about a couple of thugs hanging out in front of the 7-11 you want to buy milk from.

I agree with being situationally aware, that applies anywhere you happen to be. Personally I like situational awareness as well as my CCW of choice. It ain't no death ray, but it gives me an additional tool in my toolbox. A nail is no good without a hammer.

[Rightwinger]

Additional Tool... A great way to put it.

I've never had to pull my firearm. I've had my hand on the grip once, but the situation changed.

[threegun]

I am also torn between the "I don't want to allow the badguys to win by forcing me to alter my way of living" and "putting myself in harms way to prove I am free". The way I see it, they have already forced me to alter my way of life. I have to carry a firearm and train withit. So if I want Milk at 3am I get it. I just go to a safer store.


Petemo,

It may hurt your pride

Amen. You use pride as a guage and eventually you will go to jail.

[Rightwinger]

Damn straight on that one.

Pride has lead to the downfall of men far more times than their opponents skillfull opposition has.

[seth]

in liberal Hawaii, you get a BG pulling a gun on you, he shoots you, he takes your wallet, he gets away clean.

You draw your gun? You get sued for public endangerment and brandishing a deadly weapon, and CCW is illegal too.

You shoot a home intruder? You get sued for improper use of deadly force (yes, this has happened before here--- a farmer shot a home intruder in the countryside and the BG sued him!)

A BG approaches you with a knife, and you are unarmed. You call him a pu$$y because he's, well, a BG with a knife. He turns around and sues you for sexual harrassment.

[junglebob]

Interesting to see a state with worse laws than Illinois. No duty to retreat here, and you can defend yourself in your own home or business with a firearm.
I gather that Hawaii "may issue" is a joke, since the number issued can be counted on one hand.

[delta58]

Drawn once in about 20 years but glad I had numerous times!

[Garand Illusion]

In case you're still reading this, Liccw -- I'm really not trying to debate with you. But the way you put in your opinions as common sense bothers me. Only you know what to do to stay safe; I'm just saying that the safety we require is relative.

Garand Illusion: I'm not telling you to cower in your house. Believe it our not there is a middle ground which lies between reckless bravado and cowardice. Its called prudence.

Very true. Everyone knows this. But one man's "prudence" is another man's "cowardice." Although it was before my time, I know of my people too "prudent" to go to Vietnam, so they moved to Canada instead.

I have seen way to many tough guys, gangsters, and pyschos end up dead or in jail with the "I'd rather get beat down once" attitude. Funny, when I was in school and the teacher told us to look around and that in 10 years many of us would be dead or in jail. I laughed. Yet 90% of the "tough guys" twenty years later are dead or in jail.

The one's who went to jail were criminals. I'm not talking to criminals here. As to how the other tough guys died ... those things just happened. I'll bet the majority of them died doing something risky but fun (motorcycle riding) or stupid (driving drunk) or just like random, the same as the non-tough guys.

I am sure that we are mixing signals here, that you don't mean what you are saying the way I am taking it. Don't tell your daughter its OK to go wherever she wants as long as she's armed. That's a very bad idea.

No ... it's not. I want my daughter to have the best possible mix of courage and common sense and "prudence" possible, but I never want her to be a prisoner of fear. Stay out of a few select areas, and this country overall is pretty safe.

I had a friend who decided to take a walk one night to get a snack at the quick-mart in town. While walking through a parking lot (and oh, by the way, he was a Marine at the time--not a sheep by definition) ... Seeing him, a group of black gang bangers mistook him for a hispanic. ... he was stabbed in the back, slashed cross the face, and shot at. ... he has an evil looking scar across his cheek to remember his walk that night. Yes they caught the guys, well, some of them. Not that he cared. He'd rather not be disfigured.

So one night your friend went out and was attacked. I guess he could have stayed home with the doors locked and avoided that, but only ONE night was he attacked. How many hundreds of nights would he have to NOT go out and stay home with the doors locked to avoid that? And then even being at home, he could have been the victim of some "wilding" gang members who took him unawares in his own bed.

I'm not against prudence, but we Americans like to think of our country as "land of the free, home of the brave." We can't be free if we're too afraid to leave our homes after dark, and we damned sure aren't brave.

BG's don't like places with lots of decent people who will actually call the police and witness against them. Lots of decent people are a very bad thing for them. So they avoid those places.

So ... the more decent people out there at any given time, the safer it is for all and the less secure the BG's free.

Over the last 2 centuries, several million young American's have died to create and protect our freedoms. The did unprudent things, like charge ashore at Iwo Jima, or climb out of the trenches in Flander's Field, or even go to Iraq. Unprudent and more dangerous than about any neighborhood in America all.

We owe it to those people and live free. And yes ... you might get unlucky and get hurt. But how much of life will you miss if you base your existence on trying not to get hurt?

So I do have a daughter ... and while she's still very young, I never want her to fear to experience life. I hope she doesn't get hurt ... but if she does, I also know she'll be strong enough to deal with it.

[FireBreather01]

From the CCW class I took -- don't pull your weapon unless you intend to fire.

I would correct that by saying - 'don't pull your weapon unless you are PREPARED to fire'. To imply, or even state, that you can only draw if you are going to shoot is, IMO, reckless. As most of the posts on this thread have indicated, the mere act of drawing one's weapon and being sighted by the BG is usually enough to avert a potential violent encounter. If that's the case then that's all that is required - reholster, regroup, and move on.

(Although I would recommend following up by immediately filing a report with the local law-enforcement agency to document the threat)

[Rightwinger]

FILE A REPORT

I'll agree with that one, if only to get a description of the person who accosted you out to the officers on duty. Odds are that the person who caused you to draw your pistol is not going to turn from crime IMMEDIATELY, and has never done it before. Letting them know is a public service.

Plus you could avoid a ridiculous "brandishing" accusation.