car jacking question

[torque]

the other day a woman was carjacked at a redlight, held at gunpoint, forced to drive and then beaten and raped. This has me worried, it's a small town and my wife is wanting to get her chl now. If someone tries to get in your car and if there's someone in front and behind where you can't drive off, do you have the right to shoot through the window or do you have to wait until they are inside to defend yourself?

[ppcpilot]

Here in La, a car is considered an extension of your home...I would think if a deadly weapon is pointed at you from the outside and you are hemmed in, regardless of the state, you gotta do what you gotta do to protect your life!

[Manedwolf]

Simplest answer.

LOCK THE CAR DOORS AT ALL TIMES!!!!

Most carjackings don't involve breaking anything...they just run up, grab the handle, yank open the unlocked door and threaten the driver.

Lock your doors, and all that will happen is that you'll be alerted when they pull on the handle. Then you can use several thousand pounds of metal as a weapon.

And who cares if there's cars behind and in front of you! Don't hit them hard enough to hurt the occupants, but causing a fender bender and blaring horns is better than being killed, and will sure attract attention!

(BTW, if you fire most handguns in a car with the windows all up, trying to shoot through the window, say byebye to your ears...the sound pressure has nowhere to go. AFAIK, eardrum rupture is quite possible. Windows down is quite something else, it'd be loud, but the sound pressure wave has somewhere to go.)

[Musketeer]

I encounterred the situation first hand in FL back in the early 90s while deliverring pizza. I had just pulled into a spot in the housing projects, you could say I stood out. As soon as I stopped a car blocked me into the spot, the passenger jumped out, ran up to my passenger door and tried to open it. Other people had been carjacked/kidnapped recently in the region. They were taken with the car to an ATM where their account had as much as possible taken. At the minimum those people were roughed up some, I believe one was kiled.

As soon as the attacker looked up from the locked door he was trying to open he saw the muzzle of my S&W model 36 and then was blinded by the 6 cell maglite I shined into his face (possibly not the best thing though as it reflected a fair amount off the window back into the car). He turned and ran, the car took off and I nearly threw up. If his hand had come into view with a gun I would have shot him through the window without hessitation.

State laws may vary but you are almost always allowed to use deadly force if

1. You cannot retreat or do so without putting yourself at greater risk.

In your hypothetical you cannot get away without exiting the car which would likely put you at greater risk.

2. Your life is in immediate and credible danger. The attacker must have indicated intention, capability and opportunity.

Does he have intention? An armed attacker by virtue of being armed and attacking you has indicated intent. If the carjacker is coming at your wife he has indicated intent.

Does he have capability? A gun would indicate this clearly. A knife or a significant disparity of force (large man vs. small woman) would also indicate capability.

Does he have opportunity? With the weapon he has can his intention of causing harm be carried out at present. A car jacker with a knife is not an does not have opportunity if he is locked outside the car. If he attempts to break the window and appears to have the ability to do so he does have opportunity. A gun outside your window indicates opportunity.

If your wife cannot get away and the three requirements of intention, capability and opportunity are present it does not matter what side of the window the criminal is on.

[Samurai]

The important thing about carjackings (assuming all-else has failed, and you ARE getting carjacked) is thus: NEVER, and I mean NEVER continue to ride with the carjacker. If you have to break ALL FOUR arms and legs jumping out of the car, then you DO IT!

I heard someone quote some "FBI statistics" once. The word was, if you have a weapon pulled on you during the commission of a crime, you have a 4 out of 5 chance of coming out completely physically unharmed, as long as you stay where you are. Once you allow yourself to be re-located, you have a 1 in 5 chance of even surviving.

Translation: NEVER allow yourself to be re-located. Think about it: Criminals re-locate you in order to do things to you that they can't do out in public! If you are ordered to come with the assailant, just flat-out REFUSE to go with the person. Jump from the moving car. Take off running. Do what you've got to do. But, do NOT just ride along in the car and hope everything will be ok. It WON'T!

[brickeyee]

"If someone tries to get in your car and if there's someone in front and behind where you can't drive off..."

Stop pulling up so close to the vehicle in front.
ALWAYS leave anough room to make a sharp turn into the next lane.

[Manedwolf]

That, too. I never stop-tailgate for a number of reasons, that being one of them. Always leave room to manuever.

[Big Calhoun]

+1 on keeping cars door locked. Another tip is to not pull up so close when you have to stop at a light. If I'm in a sketchy nieghborhood, I'll leave maybe 6ft 'slack' space between me and the car in front. Just enough to punch it into a hard turn.

[newerguy]

You have heard the two best pieces of advice, lock your doors, and keep enough space in front of you so that you can pull out around the car in front of you. You should be able to see road between your hood and the next car. It's for carjackings, if the car in front of you breaks down (which doesn't seem to happen as much as it used to), and in case you get rear ended.

If you can, keep your window rolled up when you are in a situation where you might need to worry about carjackers. (e.g., in a bad part of town, or in the mall parking lot, keep your windows up if you can; if you are on a county road where you aren't going to have to stop, don't worry about it.)

As for diving out of the car, if you are carjacked, that's probably good advice. Tuck your chin against your chest, and try and roll on your side if the car is moving. You want to jump far enough away from the car that you won't get run over, and you want to let yourself roll as many times as possible, because the longer it takes to stop, the less damage you will do to yourself, all other things being equal. That is by far not the best outcome, but it might be the best course of action you have left. Otherwise, if the guy makes you get out, run; if he makes you slide over, go out the passenger side.

[mlandman]

Put it in reverse and move the person behind back. Your life IS at risk. After you contact their bumper, floor it. You will move then and make a lot of tire squeal too.
In Fla, if they are attempting to remove you from your vehicle, deadly force IS justified:

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.--

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle

...but shooting them it will be REAL loud! Be aware that if you have less than a 9mm, you may not be able to shoot through your front windshield effectively.

[foghornl]

Leave enough room to COMPLETELY SEE where the rear tires of car in front touch the road.

That should leave you enough room for a tight turn, "hit the gas-n-go" manuever.

[john55555]

I already keep the doors locked and windows up. Making space fore and aft will now go into my "2nd Nature File."

I do a "Neighborhood Watch" Patrol..usually at night. I always keep my KAHR P9 under a small pillow on the passenger's side of the Jeep. If it ever came to having to use a weapon to save my life, I'd rather it be "right there" rather than under my seatbelt, IWB..my mode of concealed carry.

Seems there is no precaution to take, that I'm aware of, as far as "nose in" parking is concerned..to keep a BG from blocking you. I am not physically able to run..I do well to walk with a cane..so anything I do will have to be done while sitting in the car. This certainly limits my options, however it's made me very "aware."

[ZeSpectre]

There are a few related but separate issues that I would like to address in this situation.

The first issue may, or may not apply to you and/or your wife. If it doesn’t then please don’t take offense, I just feel that it is an important topic to bring up with regards to events like this one.

Issue #1) “reactionary gun affection”.
Something bad happens and someone immediately decides that “armed is the answer”. Fine if you are someone who already owns, trains, and is familiar with firearms capabilities and limitations. However this reaction is NOT GOOD and tends to create a seriously dangerous false sense of security (and possibly even a hazard to others) when it’s someone who has never so much as fired a gun before in their life.

Persons from the second category need to be fully educated regarding firearms use and responsibility including that serious and sobering question “honestly, could you actually stand there and shoot someone dead”. I’m always astounded by the number of people I’ve known who bought a firearm in reaction to a bad event and never even considered that all-important question. Once educated that person may commit to the responsibilities that accompany firearm ownership or they may choose to find an alternative.

Issue #2) Situational awareness and a “hardened” target.
Pay attention to what is going on around you. Check your mirrors. Keep a close eye on what others are doing. As others have said, you can significantly improve your chances simply by making sure your doors are locked, windows rolled up, etc. In other words deny easy access to the vehicle and your physical person.

It is also an excellent idea to make sure that you can retain some mobility with your vehicle. It’s not always possible but you should try.

Issue #3) Survival choices.
At this point I often get the response “but you can’t use lethal force in defense of property”.
When somebody grabs something of yours and runs and you were never directly threatened or coerced (say you see somebody a block away stealing your car or you arrive home just as a truck drives off with your television set) that is a property theft.

However, when someone displays a weapon (and ladies a fist is a weapon) and demands something, typically saying some variation of “gimmie XXX”. The full statement that needs to be clearly understood is “your <fill in item demanded here> or your life”. That’s the “deal” they are offering. THAT IS A DIRECT THREAT ON YOUR LIFE NOT A PROPERTY THEFT! It fills the legal requirements of means (has a weapon), motive (wants something of yours or wants you), and opportunity (is right there, in range). Clearly understand that at that point you are in a self defense situation and they are the enemy.

If that enemy offers you a “deal” like “co-operate and you won’t get hurt” you can safely assume that they are a LIAR. Trustworthy people don’t stick a weapon in someone’s face and demand stuff from them. No matter what they say or what “deal” they offer they are a LIAR and you must not believe them.

Finally, do not, under any circumstances allow the criminal to relocate you. At the initial crime scene the criminal may not be completely in control. There may still be witnesses, escape opportunities, medical help, etc. available to the victim. However this will NOT be the case once the criminal is able to relocate you to the second crime scene as the criminal will take you to the secured location of their choosing and then proceed to do as they please with you. Cops call the second crime scene the “graveyard scene” or “doom scene” for a reason.

Look I’m going to be honest with you. In a worst case scenario where the criminal decides to shoot (stab, choke, beat, etc) then where do you stand more of a chance of survival, in the mall parking lot where someone might call for help or back in the woods after several hours of rape, torture, and whatever else the criminal decides to do?

Be alert, be secure, but if all else fails FIGHT BACK!

[Freakdaddy]

This may sound a little unorthodox but drastic times calls for drastic measures. If someone jacks your car on the passenger side wanting you to take them to the ATM or wherever, why not give them the ride of their life?

Drive erratic and drive fast! Do anything that will draw attention to your vehicle so hopefully other people will call 911 and cause the police to find you. If it's late at night, smash your vehicle into a light pole, stoplight, another vehicle...anything that will deploy the airbags. Most vehicles anymore have dual airbags and although can be disorienting when set off, you will be expecting it and not the perp which might buy you enough time to get out of the vehicle. I know all situations are different (passengers, location, etc.) but hopefully will you be prepared and have some kind of plan in action in place so you're not necessarily winging it.

All the tactics and situational awareness already posted is great but once the perp is in your vehicle, the rules have dramatically changed. Maintain the element of surprise and do what the perp isn't planning on you doing. Use whatever tools are at your disposal but most importantly, FIGHT BACK! This could very well be your last stand, at least try to go out swinging. At least this is what I'd like to think I'd do LOL! Just my thoughts.

[torque]

freakdaddy:

I thought about that myself, run it up to about 100 or so and just slam on the brakes as hard as I can. Ever seen the hitcher? when they did that and he went through the windshield? I know it was just a movie and he probably wouldn't go through the windsheld, but it would definately do some damage to the carjacker.

[Samurai]

You forget: The whole time you're in the car, driving "erratically," the guy's in the passenger seat with a gun on you! What if he shoots you in the thigh, and then tells you to stop driving so fast, or the next one goes in your head? Then what have you done? You've just gotten yourself shot, and you've given away the fact that you intend to resist/run! You've put HIM on alert!!! (NOT SMART!!!)

No, driving erratically isn't the way to go. Fact is, you DON'T want to be NEAR this person anymore. Your goal isn't to scare THEM away, your goal is to get away YOURSELF. Bail out of the car, and run! That's the only way to go.

[Freakdaddy]

Yeah, much better for him to shoot you as you try to exit the vehicle as opposed to him shooting you while you're driving "erratically" and the perp thinking "S**t! Now how in the hell I'm gonna stop this MF'n car??!!". Removing yourself, although a great option, may not always be viable.

The funny thing is if you comply and die, we criticize the victim for not doing anything. You do something and die, we criticize those actions as well. Until you're actually in the situation, who knows how you'll handle it and what the outcome will be. I'd personally like to think that I'd have enough awareness to get my gun out and defuse the situation before it turned into a crime. But then again, I'm always prepared at the computer!

We could keyboard commando this thing till we're blue in the face. The fact is, none of us are wrong. We offer our views...brainstorming mind you...hopefully giving each other an "arsenal" of tactics that might actually save our life someday for whatever uncompromising position we may find ourselves in. Just my thoughts...right or wrong, take it for what it's worth.

[re_kenney]

Greetings;
Last weekend, while exiting and interstate ramp, I apparently made the mistake of taking the ramp too slowly for some "Gansta" type in the car behind me. When I pulled up to a red light I was number 5 in my lane. (the left lane) The offended person behind me changed to the right lane (they would have been number 2 at the stop light. Low and behold he took it upon himself to stop adjacent to me, and roll down his window. As it turned out my windows were already down. At first I thought it might be someone asking for directions, or perhaps trying to advise me that I had a flat tire. In other words I had not yet figured out the caliber of person I was dealing with. I turned to him and said; "Whats up"? It was then I began to figure out that this was no polite encounter. There was lots of loud "Boom Boom Gansta Rap music coming from the adjacent vehicle and the driver was attempting to giving me a "nasty stare". I pulled my Glock-36 from its belly holster and placed it (in my hand) on the passenger seat. I am fairly sure my Gansta friend was not aware of this action. We sat there for a few seconds staring at each other. He never said a word. Then, for no apparent reason he pulled away. This incident left me to ponder what would have happened had this encounter not been so benign and that car had been filled with three of four of his little gansta buddies (with guns). Does anyone have some advice?

[Ric in RIC]

Guy jumped on my motorcycle once I was cutting through a marginal part of town at a stop sign.

Guy jumps on the back of my bike ( I was about 17 at the time) saying ..."give me ride, I live right up there!" and points to the right.

I yell get off now!!!

He keeps saying "give me a ride give me a ride!".

I pull off and dump the clutch and take off....we go about 300 yards all the while him clawing at my jacket trying to hold on.

He starts yelling "HERE HERE STOP STOP!".

Ok......

Slam on the front brake and feel his face hit my helmet, come to an almost stop and gun it and he disappeared off the back.

I never looked back and never went that way again.

Scared the crap out of me as a kid.

You have to question the sense of anyone who jumps on any motorcycle.

Either way I don't think he'd ever do it again.

[mlandman]

torque posted -
I thought about that myself, run it up to about 100 or so and just slam on the brakes as hard as I can. Ever seen the hitcher? when they did that and he went through the windshield? I know it was just a movie and he probably wouldn't go through the windshield, but it would definitely do some damage to the carjacker.

Your average street tires can generate less that 1 G in braking (DOT approved racing tires can generate 1.25 - 1.5 Gs when they are hot) and you are loading the fronts at the expense of the rear grip. You have, most likely, an ABS system, that reduces your braking from maximum tire adhesion (that's their job after all, to let the tires keep rolling so you have "control"). Your passenger is as a guess 40" from the windshield and 20" from the dash. If you fell 15" bounced off the dash and continued on 15" to the glass 9less than 1 G remember), I doubt you would get even moderately hurt. Personally, I could easily put my hand out and brace myself during a panic stop, and fire a round . If you plowed into a solid object (telephone pole for example) at 25 or 30 mph you COULD knock the bloke to disorientation and scram. Remember to have your seat belt on tight and do NOT lock your elbows. The air bags will deploy at those speeds.

That's pretty funny Ric in RIC

[Bruxley]

re kenny

What was effective in how you responded was the verbal address and stare you mentioned. This demenor is 'disarming' in it's self. The look I imagined you having was 'I'm ready....what are you going to do'. A show of strength without a challenge. The unbroken eye contact will make people start to doubt. The lack of challenge made it easy for then to think....'ahhh forget it'.

Good job.

BTW......HEED the wisdom imparted by so many others....DO NOT go with the BG. Take the asphalt (w/ cruise control set?) because they ARE going to kill or mame you.

[Odd Job]

Many good points already. To summarise:

1) Preventing being boxed in or being surprised at your window is the number 1 objective.
2) Leave space in front of your vehicle, to manoeuvre.
3) Keep your doors locked and windows closed (enough to keep a hand out).
4) If they break your window or get in, drive into the car in front and lean on the horn. The carjacker won't hang around.
5) In the US I would say don't let someone relocate you. In SA they will probably take you a few miles at least, to verify that you don't have a timed immobiliser (anti-carjacking device). I would play it by ear in SA.

[Odd Job]

I must add that if ever someone bumps you from behind, take the keys out of the ignition if you intend to get out of the vehicle. There is a car theft stunt where team A bumps you from behind, but they don't get out of their car. When you get out to see what their problem is, team B gets in your car and drives off.

[oldbillthundercheif]

I've seen an airbag up close and personal twice and would not advise wrecking into something on purpose in an airbag equipped car for any reason. I know the idea was only thrown out as a wild "what if" idea, but airbags are nasty. Awful nasty. It's a shotgun shell with a sack on it.

I had one go off late as I was leaning forward after a crash at 15mph tops. The bag caught my neck and chin with an uppercut shot and knocked me completely stupid. Ripped the skin of my neck open too. I would have been in no condition to deal with a badguy in the passenger seat.

The other time I met Mr. Bag was when I hit a curb at about 30mph. If I had been conscious I could have hit the brakes and avoided the trees downrange after I went over the curb but once the sack hit me I was just meat along for the ride. All I remember is "oh, hell, I'm gonna hit that curb" followed by a white flash and a 20KHz tone (a famous writer called this sound "the song of the sausage-creature"). The world came back into focus and I realized that my car was resting on its side in a wooded area. Who knows how long I was out... 10-15min probably. Bad concussion. No fun at all.

Airbags are bad for situational awareness!

[wayneinFL]

I've never had an airbag deploy on me, thank God. None of my cars have them, but my last two company vans have, and it's always bothered me driving with that bomb in the steering wheel in front of me. It gives me the shivers thinking about it.