30-06 Silvertip Bullet

[Bucksnort1]

Many years ago, I obtained a handful of 180 grain, silver tip bullets. I loaded a few for testing but never fired them. Today, I retrieved them for testing. I checked overall length and found them to be 3.145". After referring to some loading manuals, I see the overall length should be a maximum of 3.340" with some being shorter because of bullet style and or powder.

I pulled a bullet and found there are two cannelure rings. I seated mine to the one closer to the tip. If I seat to 3.340", the mouth of the case lands between the two cannelures. It looks a bit strange. Is this ok?

[RC20]

I am a bit confused.

I see the overall length should be a maximum of 3.340" with some being shorter because of bullet style and or powder.

Are you talking about lead tip bullets in general?

As yours have no ID, the only way to really find out is to put one in a sized but non powders case.

Set it to LONG length over similar bullets, and then put in the gun and very gently tyr to close the bolt.

It should stop short of closing. YOu may need to tap on the handle with a screw3 driver.

Then seat it .020 deeper and re-check. At some point you may close the bolt, if you open it and its sticky, do the tap thing. Shorten it another .020 and try it.

That will be pretty good. As long as the charge is mid range or lower ok, idea is to not be at the lands so you don't cause a pressure pulse.

You can refine it more if you want or just go with that.

The best tool is a Hornady Ogive unit that is more accurate than the using the TIP and even more so for lead tipped.

[Scoits]

Should be ok, if all else is to std

[Bucksnort1]

RC20,

These are not lead tipped bullets. They were produced by Winchester but I'm not sure when, perhaps around the 1970s. The exposed silver tip looks similar to the ballistic silver tip Winchester is now producing except the newer ones have the very sharp pointed tip; whereas, mine are pointed but not to a very fine point. I think the tip is made of aluminum. It is not soft like lead.

[Bucksnort1]

Here is a photo of the bullets, which are not mine but this is what they are.

[RC20]

Interesting.

Same situation applies. You have to be more careful measuring to any tip as the variation from bullet to bullet is much larger than the OGIVE.

Still can be done, just give it a bit more space off the lands.

If not yours someone else? Same bullets?

Remain a bit confused on the specifics but the general is understood (or so I think)

I assume the 30-06 refers to what you are shooting them in, i.e. 308 caliber.

I would like some of those to try in a Model of 1917!

[Bucksnort1]

RC20,

I do not remember where I got these bullets. I just recall having them for a long time. I remember buying Winchester silver tips for hunting in Texas in the 1960s with my Remington 721, which is the rifle I will use when I shoot them. They were factory produced. I will follow your instructions. I found the photo on line. The canelures look the same and the tip looks the same.

[F. Guffey]

I see the overall length should be a maximum of 3.340"

I have a boo that list 30/06 maximum overall case length for different chambers, I determine the length of the chamber before I determine the maximum length of the case. because I do not know what the smith was thinking when he cut the chamber.

Set it to LONG length over similar bullets, and then put in the gun and very gently try to close the bolt.

and then tap it with a screwdriver?

I believe that is a bad habit. there is a good chance the bullet will stay in the lands when the case is extracted.

There is another fool method, problem, it must be difficult because I am the only reloader that uses the method and or technique.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

I have bullets with hard tipped pointed ends. I do not shoot them because in my short life I have only managed to purchased 3 boxes of 100 bullets each. My bullets are 270 and 308.

So; what is a reloader to do with bullets a reloader can not replace? I moved them to the collectable drawer.

F. Guffey

[Pathfinder45]

Here's what I would do: Ignore the cannelures. Take a fired case that was fired in your rifle. Ever so slightly, flatten the neck into a very slightly out-of-round oval shape so that it will still chamber, but also have a slight grip on the bullet. Now, seat one of those Silvertips into that case, to an extra long length that is the longest length that will fit in your rifle's magazine and still feed reliably, which will likely be about .010" shorter than the magazine. Next, take a magic-marker and completely cover the exposed portion of the bullet. Now put this test-round directly into the chamber by hand, not from the magazine, and close the bolt on it. Then carefully extract the case, hopefully with the bullet still attached; but don't worry if the case extracts leaving the bullet in the barrel because you can simply push it out gently with a cleaning patch followed by the cleaning rod from the muzzle. Try not to damage the bullet, but examine it carefully for bright marks where the dye from the marking pen has been disturbed, notably by the rifling,if it touched there, and also if the bullet was pushed back further into the case. From the information you gather in this test, you can establish your own C.O.A.L. for that bullet in your rifle. For example, in my 270, Sierra, Speer, and Nosler bullets never touch the rifling, and thus, my maximum over-all length is only limited by the length of the magazine. But with Hornady bullets, I have to seat them to a shorter length because the shape of those bullets causes them to be crammed into the rifling when loaded to the limits of the magazine. Keep in mind that if you are loading to a longer than standard length because it just works so well in your rifle, it might well be too long for another rifle of the same caliber. It is no small wonder that factory ammo works as well as it does when they have to load it to function in every rifle of that caliber. I hope this helps. Remember, everyone; "Ya gotta have Silvertips.".

[GeauxTide]

Winchester developed the Power Point in the 70s (or was it 60s?) to compete with the Corelokt. Many of the fellas I hunted with used 308s and 150 PP and had issues from no expansion to violent blowups on impact. The Silvertip had a tin (?) covering for the exposed lead and reportedly gave better overall performance. FWIW, I'd use them for target practice and get some Sierra, Speer, or Hornady.

[F. Guffey]

Here's what I would do: Ignore the cannelures. Take a fired case that was fired in your rifle. Ever so slightly, flatten the neck into a very slightly out-of-round oval shape so that it will still chamber, but also have a slight grip on the bullet.

'ever so slightly' Never occurred to me, I am the fan of all the grip I can get, most of the time that works to (about 40 pounds meaning it takes 40 pounds of pressure/weight to seat the bullet).....because when I finish locating the lands I use the test case as a transfer. After that? I use the test case/transfer again and again and again, what that means is 'ever so slightly' does not have enough grip but; it must work for those that have mastered the art of neck tension.

F. Guffey

[Bucksnort1]

Pfadfinder (that's German for Pathfinder),

More good advice. I've not read any responses about negatively affecting case capacity by determining the C.O.A.L. for this situation. Should I be concerned about pressure?

Also, you hit the nail squarely on the head when you state, "It is no small wonder that factory ammo works as well as it does when they have to load it to function in every rifle of that caliber". Kinda makes you wonder why we split hairs in this reloading business but I guess the manufacturers split hairs for non-loaders.

[MarkCO]

I load my 180 grain STs to 3.300 OAL for a Remington 700. But mine only have one cannelure. They have an Aluminum alloy tip.

Very good bullet that was ahead of its time. I have killed a lot of deer and elk with that bullet and still have about 200 left. I bought 1000 on close-out in the early 2000s for $125 if I remember right, not sure exactly what year. There was a time in 2007 to 2008 where they were selling at a premium on Ebay, $1-$2 per bullet.

[Don Fischer]

You loaded some for testing? What did you load them in? Before trying to chamber one I'd measure bolt face to bullet tip with a cleaning rod. That would leave the bullet touching the lands. Seat it deeper till it no longer touch's the lands. I don't know about those bullet's you have but Hornady bullet's also have that groove, if it's for crimping I don't know. On every bullet I reload just off the lands the groove is about a quarter inch forward of the case mouth. According to Hornady data, all my loads are way to long, but, they fit! I'm quite certain they would also fit if I loaded to that groove!

If you try them where they are at, simply close the bolt slowly and feel for any resistence at all. That resistance will likely be the bullet touching the lands, stop at that resistance and remove the round Look at the bullet where the ogive should be and you should see little scrape's around the bullet. Wipe them off with 0000 steel wool, seat the bullet a bit further and try again. When there is no resistance left, the bullet will be just off the lands. But one more problem. Let's say these fir fine right now, what gun were they loaded for and what is the powder and chg weight. You might want to simply consider pulling them and starting over!

[Unclenick]

The multiple cannelures will be for accommodation by different chamberings, some of which have throats closer to the case neck than others.

As already advised, see what length your chamber will allow. To use standard load data, seat the bullet about 0.030" deeper than that maximum length to avoid proximity to the lands raising pressure (can raise it about 20%).

Note that sometimes you can't easily push a bullet into a fired case because the case mouth is curled slightly inward. You can either expand that or slit the neck part way down its length with a Dremel tool or a hacksaw. Whether the fired case curl interferes or not depends partly on how wide the chamber neck is. After you set a bullet barely into the case, push it into the chamber with your finger until the case stops against its shoulder. I recommend you then gently push the case and bullet out from the muzzle with a cleaning rod. This avoids the bullet pulling out slightly, as can happen if you extract the case normally. If your neck is tight in the chamber it could come out too short, but it can't come out too long, which is what can make trouble. Measure the result. If you haven't done this before, do it several times to see how much your numbers vary and to be sure you didn't get a short reading because the bullet caught on the corner of the throat.

Once you have the maximum length, you can decide whether a cannelure is close enough to be of interest to you or not. It is usually only required to use one with a crimp for ammunition that is to be handled very roughly (lots of dropping). Occasionally it helps improve start pressure consistency to improve accuracy, so you don't want to reject it out of hand, either. Mostly its just another thing you can try. I've never found it necessary.

The other thing you have to discover is if the new maximum length still fits in a magazine or not. That's the main reason for the SAAMI standard maximum COL: magazine fit and feeding. Match shooters for long range normally load singly, so they don't care if it fits in the magazine or not, and as a result, often seat longer to have a little more powder space or because the longer bullet position proves to provide better accuracy.

[T. O'Heir]

"...this is what they are..." And they're absolutely fabulous bullets. Totally different from the current Silvertip that is the same thing as a No$ler Ballistics Tip and a Hornady SST. This Silvertip is actually a semi-jacketed bullet with an Al cap over the exposed lead. Shot a ground hog with a 220 out of an M1 Rifle(no affect at all.), years ago. Blew the entire off side into mush. Have a bunch of 150's loaded in .308 for my semi'd M-14. No issues with that either. Feeds like hot dam. Plan was a deer load until the ATF exported their stupid once an MG always an MG nonsense and made my semi'd Winchester M-14 too evil for hunting.
Anyway, load 'em to 3.340" or the same length you load any other 180. (Assuming you have a 180 grain load now.) Forget the cannelure altogether. No need to crimp as neck tension is enough. No tapping, cleaning rods or ogives involved.
Forget the whole off-the-lands stuff too. That's a 100% trial and error, unnecessary, load tweaking technique done after you have a load for a particular bullet weight. Not worth fiddling with when you only have a few bullets. 3.340" works just fine.
"...when they have to load it to function in every rifle of that caliber"..." That's what SAAMI is for.

[Bucksnort1]

I will load to 3.340" and forget about the cannelures. I have other .308, 180 grain bullets with no cannelure and have had no problems with them.

[F. Guffey]

I will load to 3.340" and forget about the cannelures. I have other .308, 180 grain bullets with no cannelure and have had no problems with them.

I am one of the very few reloaders that uses bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get, most others use neck tension. When it comes to bullet hold I like 40 pounds, that would include a few pounds either side of 40, if I can believe R. Lee my case neck releases the bullet before the bullet leaves, that has got to be fast.

Again, if I can believe Lee I do not have to worry about my necks being the same thickness all the way around the neck if it is not touching the chamber neck area.

F. Guffey

[RC20]

I see a lot of advice about crimp cases, slit them etc.

Downside is significant, if the bullet grabs the lands and pulls out you have bad data.

Ergo, if its a tight resized case, you can gently close the bolt and feel that, tap it out and check on the Ogive (best, end ok)

You carefully measure what went in and what came out. If it goes long it pulled on the bullet enough to move it out of the case.

I have not had that happen on a sized case which is why I use one.

Once it stops grabbing, you know you are close. You can fine tune it a bit if you want by using a inertia tool to get the bullet out a bit or just load another case.

Regardless, if it goes in and you move .020 back you are either a bit long or just right.

You actually know where the lands are.

The key is gently on the bolt, a screwdriver handle or plastic mallet with a gentle tap gets it out. Again gentle taps.

I have used the Hornady comparator and it is off by a fair amount (.030). Its safe but does not tell you where you are at for sure.

If you load long and close to the real lands, you know to approach that with reduced loads and not max loads to start with, even if you had max .020 further back.

Its simple and uncomplicated.

[F. Guffey]

Its simple and uncomplicated.

It all depends on who is saying "all you gotta do is etc. etc.".

And then life is much easier on a reloader if he knows how to zero a gage, next come the gage, I understanding reloaders are conditioned to use the term 'head space' at every opportunity so "It's simple and uncomplicated" is not true if they do not understand there is a chance they are using a comparator. Life could be real simple for a reloader if they knew the difference between a head space gage and a comparator.

I do not use a comparator, I do not use a head space gage, I transfer the dimensions of the chamber to the seating die and then zero. I believe the problem starts when forum members try to talk the subject to death.

F. Guffey

[Pathfinder45]

Perhaps, in my previous post #10, above, I may have been misunderstood.....
I was referring to using a fired, un-sized case, a bullet, and a magic-marker to use as measuring devices only, and not making an actual loaded round of ammo. You want the bullet to be easily, but not accidentally moved for this procedure. The case needs just enough grip on the bullet to hold it from falling out and to scrape the ink off the bullet as it is pushed into the case by the rifling. After you get all the measurements you need, make all the real ammo you want. And yes, if you do this right, you wont ruin the bullet for actual use later. The whole procedure is simple as pie, until misunderstanding and confusion sets in.

[jersurf101]

Pathfinder's method works well and is the one I use to find my max COAL to the lands. A wooden Dowell that fits down the bore is helpful. Bullets can stick m in the lands and give a false reading but I do the test and measure 10 or 12 times. This tends to highlight false readings. The magic marker on the bullets let's you know when you are there.

[briandg]

It is an aluminum cap. The second groove is only decorative. If you load to the reeded canellure you should be loaded to factory specs. you can generally use the measurements interchangeably with others of similar shape with start charges. The silvertip was designed for heavier game. T h e cap was meant to delay expansion, limit explosive expansion. The extra ring showed that the core was "locked" into place. Since all of that aluminum had to be torn open before full mushrooming happened, the bullet had slowed down to velocity that could prevent over expansion.

[briandg]

Factory loaded silvertip.


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