Emergency v. tactical reload on pump shotguns for HD: Is conventional thinking wrong?

ezmiraldo · February 28, 2016, 09:02 AM

Guys and gals -- sorry for a long post. But, I need help from y'all thinking through procedures for reloading pump shotgun for SD/HD use (not competition or hunting)..

Let's define the terms first.

By "emergency" reload (sometimes called "combat" reload) I mean when the gun is totally empty, and one has no time or cover to fill the mag tube with rounds. In this case, one places the round directly into receiver chamber while the pump is back, and then moves the pump forward to place the round into the barrel, making shotgun ready to fire.

By "tactical" reload I mean when the gun is totally or partially empty, and one has either time or cover to top off the mag tube with new rounds. In this case, one inserts rounds into mag tube until it is full.

Most of today's best schools/instructors who teach use of pump shotguns for HD/SD teach the following when shotgun is totally empty:
(1) break the firing position, then place butt of the stock into one's "working space" (or lean it against one's side for support) and rotate the gun so holding shotgun is easier, loading is more comfortable, and one can see ejection port, then
(2) do emergency reload first and then proceed to tactical reload.

I have to question both recommendations, and want to know what everyone thinks.

First, breaking the firing position (where one's sights are no longer aligned, and shotgun is positioned such that it will take 1-2 seconds to make an aimed shot after shotgun is loaded) appears unnecessary if one has muscle strength to keep shotgun in firing position while reloading. Breaking the firing position is useful for looking at the ejection port while doing reload (it makes reloading faster and helps diagnose the problem). However, what happens when shotgun is used in a dark room (e.g., during mid-night home invasion or tactical operation)? It is impossible to see ejection port. Also, most instructors preach (for very good reasons) learning to manipulate one's firearm without having to look at it (operating lights/lasers, reloading, clearing malfunctions, operating safeties, etc.). Being able to manipulate one's firearm without having to look at it makes one also more efficient and quick even during daylight because one's eyes can be used to scan for threats, monitor environment, etc.

Second, it appears "emergency" reload can cause more problems than it solves. Emergency reload appears only useful when shotgun runs dry ("click" instead of "bang"), in which case it is supposed to save time while bringing shotgun back into action. However, what happens when one has a bad primer strike and decides to perform emergency reload because one isn't looking at the ejection port? Double-feed. When primer is bad, and one mistakes this for an empty gun, one racks the pump back ejecting unfired round (so far so good) which simultaneously places a new round into the lift area; then operator, thinking the gun is empty, places another round into ejection port area doing emergency reload effectively jamming the action because two rounds are being forced into the barrel at the same time (oops). This creates a really bad problem, which will take time to solve, under circumstances when one has no time to solve them (i.e., emergency reload is used when there's no time/cover). Again, this assumes that operator is unable (because of darkness or being visually pre-occupied with other things) or unwilling (because of training not to look at the gun while manipulating it) to look at the ejection port area while manipulating one's shotgun.

Another reason emergency reload appears to be a bad idea is that it helps develop a bad habit -- operator trains to think it's OK to wait until gun runs dry ("emergency reload to the rescue") instead of training to top off rounds immediately after rounds have been fired.

Finally, if one insists that breaking the firing position to look at the ejection port is absolutely necessary while doing emergency reload, I have to ask: Wouldn't it take the same amount of time to simply hold the shotgun in firing position and do tactical reload? This takes about the same amount of time, and one's sight picture is still in place (which makes one more ready for potential re-engagement).

Does this make any sense to anyone? Am I not realizing some fatal flaw in my approach? Let me know what y'all think. Currently, I'm leaning towards phasing out emergency reload (as unnecessary, and potentially harmful to speed of shotgun operation) from how i train to use my pump mossberg 500, and just going with tactical reloads while holding shotgun in firing position. Looking forward to your thoughts.

g.willikers · February 28, 2016, 09:33 AM

Isn't that the way the competition shooters do it?
Keep the stock solidly against the shoulder, directly reload the chamber, and/or the mag tube from the bottom?

Ben Dover · February 28, 2016, 09:53 AM

It would be my opinion that unless one is an infantryman in Afghanistan, the need for a high speed reload of a slide action or semi auto shotgun is more theoretical than actual.

If one has expended the full seven rounds of buckshot and/or slugs, and one is still in mortal danger, the best method of reloading is the least of your problems.

Reinforcement, or strategic redeployment would be a preferable solution.

g.willikers · February 28, 2016, 06:38 PM

It's got to be better to have the skill and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
Whatever the choice of weapon, especially for something as serious as self defense, knowing how to use it to full advantage has to make sense.
That would seem to include quick and effective reloading of the weapon, along with every other aspect of using it.

Kilrain · February 28, 2016, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Dover

It would be my opinion that unless one is an infantryman in Afghanistan, the need for a high speed reload of a slide action or semi auto shotgun is more theoretical than actual.

If one has expended the full seven rounds of buckshot and/or slugs, and one is still in mortal danger, the best method of reloading is the least of your problems.

Reinforcement, or strategic redeployment would be a preferable solution.

Bill Jeans, of 80s/90s Gunsite fame used to say, "If you can't solve your problem with five or six rounds of 12 gauge buckshot, you probably ain't going to. Your problem is probably going to solve you." That is a pretty accurate statement.

Of course, the opposite of that is, "I never want to be killed for lack of shooting back." Also pretty accurate.

I suspect that for most(not all) non-military firefights, the former is more accurate.

bamaranger · February 29, 2016, 04:08 AM

Back in the day when the shotgun was THE patrol long gun, I worked with quite a few people learning same. One thing that was immediately apparent was that there are folks out there, often female, but males as well, that cannot easily maintain a "firing position " with the shooting, hand at the pistol grip, butt at the shoulder, and weapon pointed in the direction of the threat, while the other hand manages the reload. This problem is compounded when you have a shotgun tricked out with with a full length mag tube that is full or nearly full, of ammo. I suspect that this issue is at least partially responsible for the partial dismount of the gun in some instances. This strength issue is one reason I am a big fan of a light, handy, minimally tricked out AR carbine for folks who have strength issues.

In competition, I see folks, sometimes some very talented folks, who shoot their shotgun dry, (come to think of it, not just shotguns) despite an attempt to "keep up". In the chaos of a gunfight, it could only get worse. BAck in the day, we used both techniques: tac and emergency in our quals, so that shooters would be working both styles under pressure for score. And folks would choke on that too. Towards the end, we started working transition drills to handgun, utilizing the trend to slings on long guns to retain same and reload the long gun later when it was more tactically sound to do so.

buckhorn_cortez · February 29, 2016, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Another reason emergency reload appears to be a bad idea is that it helps develop a bad habit -- operator trains to think it's OK to wait until gun runs dry ("emergency reload to the rescue") instead of training to top off rounds immediately after rounds have been fired.

You're manufacturing a problem in an attempt to make a point.

You train to do both, it's not like you instantly forget how to do one or the other. If you're truly training for different scenarios, you use the most efficacious method for the situation.

johnwilliamson062 · March 2, 2016, 07:46 PM

See, this is why I sold all my pumps.

FITASC · March 2, 2016, 07:50 PM

Quote:

(not competition or hunting)..

Load it up, get behind the bed, point at door, call 911, shoot bad guys if they come through door; repeat as often as necessary.

ezmiraldo · March 3, 2016, 10:08 AM

thanks folks... your comments make me feel good about my revised procedures... i agree that one probably will never have to reload in a typical home-invasion situation, but if we get there, i think tactical reload will to do it.

Sharkbite · March 3, 2016, 11:18 AM

Quote:

However, what happens when one has a bad primer strike and decides to perform emergency reload because one isn't looking at the ejection port? Double-feed. When primer is bad, and one mistakes this for an empty gun, one racks the pump back ejecting unfired round (so far so good) which simultaneously places a new round into the lift area; then operator, thinking the gun is empty, places another round into ejection port area doing emergency reload effectively jamming the action because two rounds are being forced into the barrel at the same time

Some fallacies built into that premise.

First we need to go back to basics and describe the PROPER way to run a pump Gun. It needs to be ingrained from the outset that it must be " press and PUMP". In other words, as soon as you press the trigger, you IMMEDIATELY pump the action. No hesitation, no delay. Press and PUMP.... reflexively and BRISKLY

This does a couple things. First and formost, it means you dont stand there with an empty chamber for any extra time. Second, should you have the above mentioned bad primer/dud round, it is immediately ejected from the gun and a fresh round chambered.

Think about running a revolver in a defensive encounter... Bang, bang, CLICK. You would immediately press the trigger again, bringing a fresh ctg under the firing pin.

A pump gun is much the same concept. Press and pump. Almost as one action. It doesent take long before you are shooting as fast as the semi-autos.

So, back to the above reload technique. Bang, bang, click..... Is the gun empty or is it a bad round? Well you have ingrained " press and pump " so there is already another round in the chamber ( if there are rounds remaining) so shoot again if needed. Its only when you get a second CLICK that you know the gun is empty (or your mag tube is damaged and not feeding). NOW is when you open the action, dump a round into the ejection port, and get to shooting.

Bang, bang, click, CLICK... now perform the "emergency reload". No dbl feed
Same as the above mentioned Revolver... Bang, bang, click, CLICK... RELOAD

February 28, 2016, 09:02 AM	#1
ezmiraldo Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2013 Location: one of the un-free states Posts: 240	Emergency v. tactical reload on pump shotguns for HD: Is conventional thinking wrong? Guys and gals -- sorry for a long post. But, I need help from y'all thinking through procedures for reloading pump shotgun for SD/HD use (not competition or hunting).. Let's define the terms first. By "emergency" reload (sometimes called "combat" reload) I mean when the gun is totally empty, and one has no time or cover to fill the mag tube with rounds. In this case, one places the round directly into receiver chamber while the pump is back, and then moves the pump forward to place the round into the barrel, making shotgun ready to fire. By "tactical" reload I mean when the gun is totally or partially empty, and one has either time or cover to top off the mag tube with new rounds. In this case, one inserts rounds into mag tube until it is full. Most of today's best schools/instructors who teach use of pump shotguns for HD/SD teach the following when shotgun is totally empty: (1) break the firing position, then place butt of the stock into one's "working space" (or lean it against one's side for support) and rotate the gun so holding shotgun is easier, loading is more comfortable, and one can see ejection port, then (2) do emergency reload first and then proceed to tactical reload. I have to question both recommendations, and want to know what everyone thinks. First, breaking the firing position (where one's sights are no longer aligned, and shotgun is positioned such that it will take 1-2 seconds to make an aimed shot after shotgun is loaded) appears unnecessary if one has muscle strength to keep shotgun in firing position while reloading. Breaking the firing position is useful for looking at the ejection port while doing reload (it makes reloading faster and helps diagnose the problem). However, what happens when shotgun is used in a dark room (e.g., during mid-night home invasion or tactical operation)? It is impossible to see ejection port. Also, most instructors preach (for very good reasons) learning to manipulate one's firearm without having to look at it (operating lights/lasers, reloading, clearing malfunctions, operating safeties, etc.). Being able to manipulate one's firearm without having to look at it makes one also more efficient and quick even during daylight because one's eyes can be used to scan for threats, monitor environment, etc. Second, it appears "emergency" reload can cause more problems than it solves. Emergency reload appears only useful when shotgun runs dry ("click" instead of "bang"), in which case it is supposed to save time while bringing shotgun back into action. However, what happens when one has a bad primer strike and decides to perform emergency reload because one isn't looking at the ejection port? Double-feed. When primer is bad, and one mistakes this for an empty gun, one racks the pump back ejecting unfired round (so far so good) which simultaneously places a new round into the lift area; then operator, thinking the gun is empty, places another round into ejection port area doing emergency reload effectively jamming the action because two rounds are being forced into the barrel at the same time (oops). This creates a really bad problem, which will take time to solve, under circumstances when one has no time to solve them (i.e., emergency reload is used when there's no time/cover). Again, this assumes that operator is unable (because of darkness or being visually pre-occupied with other things) or unwilling (because of training not to look at the gun while manipulating it) to look at the ejection port area while manipulating one's shotgun. Another reason emergency reload appears to be a bad idea is that it helps develop a bad habit -- operator trains to think it's OK to wait until gun runs dry ("emergency reload to the rescue") instead of training to top off rounds immediately after rounds have been fired. Finally, if one insists that breaking the firing position to look at the ejection port is absolutely necessary while doing emergency reload, I have to ask: Wouldn't it take the same amount of time to simply hold the shotgun in firing position and do tactical reload? This takes about the same amount of time, and one's sight picture is still in place (which makes one more ready for potential re-engagement). Does this make any sense to anyone? Am I not realizing some fatal flaw in my approach? Let me know what y'all think. Currently, I'm leaning towards phasing out emergency reload (as unnecessary, and potentially harmful to speed of shotgun operation) from how i train to use my pump mossberg 500, and just going with tactical reloads while holding shotgun in firing position. Looking forward to your thoughts. __________________ When Darth Vader killed the younglings, did anyone blame the lightsaber??? Last edited by ezmiraldo; February 28, 2016 at 07:36 PM.

February 28, 2016, 09:33 AM	#2
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Isn't that the way the competition shooters do it? Keep the stock solidly against the shoulder, directly reload the chamber, and/or the mag tube from the bottom? __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

February 28, 2016, 09:53 AM	#3
Ben Dover Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2013 Location: High up in the Rocky Moun Posts: 665	It would be my opinion that unless one is an infantryman in Afghanistan, the need for a high speed reload of a slide action or semi auto shotgun is more theoretical than actual. If one has expended the full seven rounds of buckshot and/or slugs, and one is still in mortal danger, the best method of reloading is the least of your problems. Reinforcement, or strategic redeployment would be a preferable solution. __________________ The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower It is very important what a man stands for. But it is far more important what a man refuses to stand for.

February 28, 2016, 06:38 PM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	It's got to be better to have the skill and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Whatever the choice of weapon, especially for something as serious as self defense, knowing how to use it to full advantage has to make sense. That would seem to include quick and effective reloading of the weapon, along with every other aspect of using it. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

February 29, 2016, 04:08 AM	#6
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,300	stuff to think about Back in the day when the shotgun was THE patrol long gun, I worked with quite a few people learning same. One thing that was immediately apparent was that there are folks out there, often female, but males as well, that cannot easily maintain a "firing position " with the shooting, hand at the pistol grip, butt at the shoulder, and weapon pointed in the direction of the threat, while the other hand manages the reload. This problem is compounded when you have a shotgun tricked out with with a full length mag tube that is full or nearly full, of ammo. I suspect that this issue is at least partially responsible for the partial dismount of the gun in some instances. This strength issue is one reason I am a big fan of a light, handy, minimally tricked out AR carbine for folks who have strength issues. In competition, I see folks, sometimes some very talented folks, who shoot their shotgun dry, (come to think of it, not just shotguns) despite an attempt to "keep up". In the chaos of a gunfight, it could only get worse. BAck in the day, we used both techniques: tac and emergency in our quals, so that shooters would be working both styles under pressure for score. And folks would choke on that too. Towards the end, we started working transition drills to handgun, utilizing the trend to slings on long guns to retain same and reload the long gun later when it was more tactically sound to do so.

March 2, 2016, 07:46 PM	#8
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	See, this is why I sold all my pumps.

March 3, 2016, 10:08 AM	#10
ezmiraldo Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2013 Location: one of the un-free states Posts: 240	thanks folks... your comments make me feel good about my revised procedures... i agree that one probably will never have to reload in a typical home-invasion situation, but if we get there, i think tactical reload will to do it. __________________ When Darth Vader killed the younglings, did anyone blame the lightsaber???