NY pistol permit DENIED!!!

[Glenn Dee]

I understand what your saying Peetza.. My point is that in no way could any section of PL240.20 (Disorderly conduct) be considered a serious offence in the state of NY. There are serious offences within acts against public order, such as 205.30 (resisting arrest), or Public lewedness, or some violations of the PHL (public health law).

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee

My point is that in no way could any section of PL240.20 (Disorderly conduct) be considered a serious offence in the state of NY. There are serious offences within acts against public order, such as 205.30 (resisting arrest), or Public lewedness, or some violations of the PHL (public health law).

You're right about that, but it's the unlicensed operation that's going to bite him. On an even more basic level than that is the "moral character" clause. The judge can simply say (and has, apparently) that he would not be convicted of those charges if he was of "good moral character". Right or wrong, they can and do. No court in NY is going to find that to be "arbitrary and capricious".

[firstnonly]

Thanks for everyone's info...

The charges on my disposition were a 240.20 for disorderly and 0511 01A for Agg Unlicensed Operation 3. Only other thing on my record is a few speeding tickets (which led to the suspension in the first place). It is possible that the judge is weighing more on the misdemeanor license charge.

I did speak with a lawyer who offered to file the article 78 for me at a cost of $1500.......He felt he may be able to get it approved through that, but if not the next step would cost in the price range of $5000.

To file an article 78 on my own costs a little over $300, but from what I understand the proceedings after that require a lawyer, so doing it on my own may be a waste.

I have a little time to appeal, but this looks like it could turn into a costly venture.

[crashm1]

Project Camaro said "Disorderly conduct is a serious crime and I can't say I'm suprised you were denied because of it. Here in WI your background would not have passed with that either. You can appeal as many times as you want but that is on your record for the rest of your life.
In the future think before you break the law."

I think you are confused. WI doesn't have any gun permits for him to be denied. We have no CCW permit, we can open carry without a permit, we don't need a permit to purchase or posses either a handgun or rifle and a disorderly conduct offense is a misdemeanor the vast majority of the time which would also not show up on a NICS or WI handgun background check.

[Expypate]

You may want to contact http://www.murthalawfirm.com/. They specialize in denials and may be able to help you. Worth a call.

[RDak]

FWIW, I think you should definitely go with an attorney on this one.

With your record, I doubt you would be granted a pistol purchase permit here in Michigan either. And, any hopes of a CPL would have a much lesser chance of approval IMHO. (This, in a very gun friendly state like Michigan, is what I believe would occur at the first level of approval IMHO. You add in the very anti-gun flavor in New York and it's "lawyer time".)

Now, that said, most violations are given an 3 year period of no criminal activity before they are disregarded in Michigan. Is it that way, or similar, in New York?

Go with what the lawyer tells you IMHO. Your record is not good IMHO as far as getting a license to purchase a pistol. And, that is how it would also be in a gun friendly state like Michigan IMHO.

I mean disorderly conduct and aggravated operation without a license..........not good IMHO. Shows disregard of the law and improper behavior when out in public. So for a few years you might just be out of luck if you get what I mean.

ETA: In Michigan, the operation without a license has to be the second offense though IIRC and disorderly conduct carries a 3 year suspension for a CPL. Are there any statutes that describe what parameters are used in New York for getting a purchase permit?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Are there any statutes that describe what parameters are used in New York for getting a purchase permit?

You may not mean it exactly like that but in NY it's not a "purchase permit". Once you have the permit you are allowed unlimited purchases, they just have to be added to the permit before you can actually take the gun home from the FFL. Technically, the judge does have to approve each purchase but I have never once heard of a denial of a purchase after a permit has been issued.

In any case, yes, there are parameters in NY for approval of the permit. I posted them on the last page:

The law reads:

S 400.00 Licenses to carry, possess, repair and dispose of firearms.
1. Eligibility. No license shall be issued or renewed pursuant to this
section except by the licensing officer, and then only after
investigation and finding that all statements in a proper application
for a license are true. No license shall be issued or renewed except for an applicant (a) twenty-one years of age or older, provided, however,that where such applicant has been honorably discharged from the United States army, navy, marine corps, air force or coast guard, or the national guard of the state of New York, no such age restriction shall
apply; (b) of good moral character; (c) who has not been convicted
anywhere of a felony or a serious offense;

and then:

Section 3, para B

The licensing officer shall no later than ten business days after the
receipt of such investigation, determine if the applicant has been
previously denied a license, been convicted of a felony, or been
convicted of a serious offense, and either approve or disapprove the
applicant for exemption purposes based upon such determinations.


Notice that in this particular case the applicant has a double, maybe triple whammy.
1)(In the mind of the judge)Questionable moral character.
2)Conviction of a serious offense.
3)Prior denial for a permit.

The legal definition of "offense" in NY is found in Penal Code 10, Section 1; "Offense means conduct for which a sentence to a term of imprisonment or to a fine is provided by any law of this state or by any law, local law or ordinance of a political subdivision of this state, or by any order, rule or regulation of any governmental instrumentality authorized by law to adopt the same."

Notice that the definition does not specify that "offense" is actually a CRIME.

So, what we have here is a situation wherein the applicant has been a record of TWO "offenses".... "serious" is left up to the judge. The applicant can easily been seen to NOT have "good moral character", again, solely left up to the interpretation of the judge, and the applicant has been previously denied for a permit which is implied by the law to grounds in and of itself for a denial.

Now, the ONLY hope for a reversal by a court of the decision to deny of permit is if the court finds that the denial is "arbitrary and capricious". We can argue all day (or all week on the internet) about whether or not the decision is "fair" or "right" but it CERTAINLY is NOT "arbitrary and capricious".

[maestro pistolero]

With your record, I doubt you would be granted a pistol purchase permit here in Michigan either.

You need a pistol purchase permit in Michigan?

[CelticWolf]

Thanks to the gun board for filtering less than desirable people to own/carry a pistol. These are not the people we want representing the gun owning/toting community.

[CRUE CAB]

To the original poster, dont ever enlighten anyone on the 'net about your personal run ins with the law.
Unless you want to be viewed as the next Scarface.
Too many super citizens that have never even gotten a ticket will chime in about how you should be jailed for anything that required action from the police.

[maestro pistolero]

Thanks to the gun board for filtering less than desirable people to own/carry a pistol. These are not the people we want representing the gun owning/toting community.

The OP has said nothing about toting a gun or representing anyone. He merely wants a gun for his house and the range. Some attitudes here seem to assume owning a handgun is some sort of privilege. It isn't.

Unless you are a felon, domestic abuser, the subject of a restraining order, insane, or on drugs, you are not disqualified from the fundamental right under the constitution. This is a denial of rights by local ordinance. After incorporation, this could not withstand any level of scrutiny that is applied to core constitutional rights. Under strict scrutiny, the OP would have even have to be issued some sort of carry permit, or be able to carry w/o a license.

Some of you haven't been paying attention.

[CelticWolf]

By owning a pistol you represent the gun community.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by crue cab

dont ever enlighten anyone on the 'net about your personal run ins with the law.
Unless you want to be viewed as the next Scarface.
Too many super citizens that have never even gotten a ticket will chime in about how you should be jailed for anything that required action from the police.

Originally Posted by maestro pistolero

Unless you are a felon, domestic abuser, the subject of a restraining order, insane, or on drugs, you are not disqualified from the fundamental right under the constitution. This is a denial of rights by local ordinance. After incorporation, this could not withstand any level of scrutiny that is applied to core constitutional rights. Under strict scrutiny, the OP would have even have to be issued some sort of carry permit, or be able to carry w/o a license.

I, for one, am making no judgements whatsoever as to the character of the OP or his "worthiness" to own handguns, nor am I making any statements as to the theoretical constitutionality of the statutes and/or decisions. I am merely pointing out the way that it is. That way that it "should be" is of little consequence to the OP at this time.

[CelticWolf]

You urinate outside in Michigan its considered a sex crime. You have to register as a sex offender.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Going nowhere - all meaningful advice given to the OP by now.

Closed