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Old January 5, 2001, 08:55 AM   #1
student2
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Hello everyone I have been reading this site for a while and decided to join in. Just to introduce myself I am 5' 8" about 180lbs and have no experience in hand to hand martial arts. Have trained in Kendo for 10 yrs and have a BS degree.

On to the question. This last new years eve after a fireworks show downtown a friend and myself decided to take public transportation home. What a mistake. The bus turminal was totally packed with people like sardines, and tempers were short. After being pushed and pushing towards the doors for the bus, tempers were even higher and it finally broke. A young black kid (approx 20 yrs old 6' tall and skinny) started to get in to a verbal argument with someone in the crowd I assume about 15 ft away. Then lunged toward that person. There were people shoulder to shoulder between the two. As the kid lunged through the crowd girls started screaming as they were being run over by the kid. I at this point was right behind the kid and grabbed the back of his jacket holding him back. The kids girlfriend was also trying to hold him back but I think that I was doing most of the work. The shouting continued and he lunged a few more times. I did not let go untill his other friends moved in and held him back and tried to calm him down. They were about 4 to 5 young males of mixed race. The things his friends were saying were "you can beat the sh*& out of him" and " he is just a punk" etc. There was no visible police presence and no one called security. There was a sea of people behind me so I could not get to the terminal to get security. Strangly, no one else did anything. I was the only one that grabbed the kid besides his girlfriend until his other friends moved or pushed in and that was it. No one seemed to care or were afraid of getting involved and getting in to a fight with the group. This group of kids pushed towards the front of the mass of people seperating them a little more from the person that the kid was shouting with. But it then errupted again with a shouting match and his friends holding him back and threats of beating the sh%$ out of the other person at the next bus stop. after a while I had enough, since we were near the front I pushed through and walked out of the terminal via the bus exit probably not the safest thing and started to walk happy that there was no crush of people or idiots.

My question is what could I have done if the kid had decided to come after me. The fact is that he did not know that I had held him. He was totally focused on the other person and I assume thought that his friends were holding him back. Did I do the right thing? I reacted with out thinking in responds to the screaming. I assume that this situation is rather tame compared to other situations that I have read about.

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Old January 5, 2001, 09:33 AM   #2
ctdonath
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Sounds like you did the right thing: restrained one of the antagonists without directing his ire toward you. No harm done besides much nervousness and yelling.

I assume that this situation is rather tame compared to other situations that I have read about.

Consider what could have happened: you were trapped like a sardine in a can, and if most of those sardines had started fighting or panicking, you would have had no options.
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Old January 5, 2001, 11:54 AM   #3
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What I've found that works is a quick, quiet, but very pointed... "Quick - chill out - the cops are coming, and they'll arrest ALL of us!"

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Old January 6, 2001, 12:21 AM   #4
Gary H
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Thank God for your B.S. Degree

Highly trained B.S. is sometimes what it takes.
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Old January 11, 2001, 02:05 AM   #5
student2
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Thanks for all of your answers.

Gary a B.S. is not highly trained, now a Phd. they know how to balance it higher and deeper.

Bogie I don't know about the cool it line. I think that if the person really cared he would not have ignored the people that he was going over to get to the other person. I understand that it can jar a person into realizing what they are doing but in the heat of the moment I am not sure about this situation.

ctdonath I am also happy that the antagonist did not direct his ire at me. But I thought over the situation in my mind and I realized that I had no backup plan if he had directed his anger at me. The best thing to do was to diffuse the situation expecially because of the crowded conditions. But if saying that "the police were coming" or just to "calm down" did not work and he came at me then what? I would have hoped the crowd would help out and grab and constrain the person but no one was doing anything to stop him except for his girlfriend and me at that time.

I don't know maby I should forget about it. But the thought of freezing after getting into a situation bothers me.

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Old January 11, 2001, 01:05 PM   #6
SDforce
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proper response..

If he comes at you, keep your hands in front of you open and don't show any body language of wanting to fight or disrespecting him. At the same time, do not show any fear because he may feed off of that and attack you. Keep your hands in front of you to keep him back, while looking for an escape route through the crowd.

If none of that works and you are forced to fight, use either hand (the heel of your palm) and drive up against his nose or chin... then wrap both hands against the back of his neck and pull his head down... execute a headbutt (with top of your forehead) to his nose... and run while everyone is in shock. Of course this is the last resort. A very effective one too as it will take the fight right out of him.

I can relate to your situations because I am about the same size as you, 5'8" 170lbs and I also have a college degree (a BA). I do not have 10 yrs in Kendo but I do have 4 yrs in Kyokushinkai Karate and 3 yrs in BJJ.
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Old January 11, 2001, 10:59 PM   #7
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I think we are forgetting the most important thing....

Sorry for the long post....

The altercation was really none of your business. In a situation like that you must keep in mind that if you involve yourself, you also involve those people with you. What if you had your girlfriend or wife or children with you are something erupted and you interviened(sp?)? You risk their lives as well as your own. While I have no problem risking my life, it is selfish to play with others lives. Also, even though you may be proficient in Kendo, most people who have trained in martial arts cannot fight because they never complete their training. Just because you have a black belt or some similar ranking in your art of choice should not give you the mindset that you could handle a situation like that. The only way that you become a good/great fighter is by getting into fights(sad but true fact). Given a choice of a black belt that has never been in a street fight and a street fighter, my money would go to the street fighter almost every time. Some may not a gree with this, but this comes from my own experience on the streets.

But, given a slightly different scenario, if the two people get into a physical altercation and one of them unjustly intends to take the life of the other, then by all means something should be done. I'm not one who is fond of gang-up fights either and have done my share or "even the odds" for people that I did not even know.

Basically it's a judgement call, one that will most likely have to be made in a split second, but with life experience the decisions will become more automatic.
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Old January 12, 2001, 04:11 AM   #8
student2
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gryphon

Thank you for your reply. I understand not getting physically involved in a gang style fight. I normally would probably get the police or security if the situation permitted. But in my situation we were in a crowd that was shoulder to shoulder and stomach to back. There I believe was a real danger of crushing people under. There were children and young people in the crowd, and when the person leaped to go after the other person he was going over the screaming people in front not caring if some one was crushed by him or by people trying to get out of the way. I grabbed him by reation, not after carefull thinking of whether I should get involved or not.

I belive in getting involved. If I see a fight or crime I think that people should get involved. If we do not get involved we are agreeing with the actions of the people that are commiting the action. enough of that off my soapbox.

I also agree that Kendo would have been useless to me, as it is japanese fencing. I understand that real street fighting where there are no rules and dojo rules are different. That is why I posted in this forum. what could I have done if the person came at me. I hope that you do not take this as a flame I do appreciate your viewpoint.


SDforce

I think that action would work in a one on one with a way out but with that many people around it would have caused the reaction I was trying to avaoid by grabbing the person in the first place.

student
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Old January 12, 2001, 10:30 AM   #9
cuerno de chivo
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It's always a judgement call, but instead of helping:

Girlfriends can put a high heeled shoe into the back of your head. Friends can gang up on you and beat the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] out of you. The badguy could turn on you. He could have a weapon (pistol, razor, knife, etc.). So could his friends.
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Old January 12, 2001, 07:54 PM   #10
Cheapo
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Ah, Grasshoppah!

Such is precisely why one must keep tuned to the Spiritual center. Without explanation, you will _know_ when to disappear or remain uninvolved, often without knowing why.

In one rural neighborhood spat, I actually *saw* the results of allowing it to escalate. The talking solution worked.
Later I learned that my friend's neighbors had already been physical in disputes, the argument I witnessed was remotely connected to a very longstanding and bitter squabble, and that I was NOT the only person there with a knife!

Trust your feelings. They may even act instantly and inspire (deliberate word choice) you to reach and and grab someone. Or walk away. It will depend on things which you will not know and may never know through your five senses.
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Old January 14, 2001, 02:08 PM   #11
gryphon
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I am absolutely not offended. It is difficult to make suggestions on subjects when you are not there to see what happended for yourself.

I'm not saying don't help people, what I'm saying is that by you interveining it is possible it could make the situation worse. When people do not know if bystandards are on one side or the other, they tend to feel that you are against them if you make some type of move. Thankfully, nothing more came of the situation than that.

I agree with most of the other responses. I also understand why most instructors do not teach certain things until they have students of advanced rank. Most lower ranking martial artists have to go through an "invincible and I can handle anything" period before they realize exactly what they are getting into. I used to be that way until one day in my youth I got out of control and seriously hurt someone. It wasn't until then that I realized the true consequences of knowledge without the proper mindset and temperment.
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Old January 15, 2001, 07:39 PM   #12
Travis McGee
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I am also a "get involved" kind of guy, so my hat is off to you for having the right stuff, unlike 90%+ of the sheeple. That said, a few thoughts: /1/ Think KNIFE. Watch the bad guys hands, be looking for a weapon, plan your responses in advance to the drawing of a knife or gun. /2/ Stay out of "rasslin range", you can't win, once you are "tied up" the goblin's friends will sling you to the ground and you are screwed. /3/ Judgement call: if you think that the punks can be swayed by a good line of BS, go for it. Humor, calming words, sympathy with their concerns etc may be all it takes, and that is to be preferred. OTOH if you have that "bad feeling", then hang back, like Mr. Sheep, while you get ready to intervene with maximum surprise and violence at the best moment. You will, depending on how it comes out, be "coomitting assault", so you will want to see a knife, or let him have the first swing at his victim, then you go in with your best sucker punch, knee kick, or joint breaking (aikido, jiujitsu) hold. At that point, you must put him out of the fight at once, so hold nothing back, avoid wrestling on the ground at all costs, and be prepared to fight his friends, so keep your back to the walls. /4/ Before TSHTF, look around and try to make eye contact with another big male who looks like he is also concerned. You may need a friend in a moment if it goes to hell. /5/ At least you will jump in, God bless you, I promise you you will have the chance to make a few "saves" in your life.
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Old January 16, 2001, 10:17 PM   #13
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The society we live in

There was a recent incident up in Anchorage. At high school two guys had a fight. It was broken up, and was planned to resume off campus. The two combatants met away from the school and continued the fight. Meanwhile over 150 students gathered and cheered on the fight. Nobody intervening to break it up. Whats more, is that several of the spectators were recording the fight on their hand-held video recorders. The fight went on, both guys landing blows and kicks until one was on the ground and pretty dazed. The crowd of kids cheered, "finish him! finish him!" as if it were a gladiatorial match. In which the other knocked him out, amist cheers. Those with the recorders went home and edited the recordings, with music and dialouge. Eventually parents got a hold of tapes and whispers of the incident and it became a huge issue up in the 49th state. Over 100 kids were suspended with the aide of the recordings and more deliberations over this continues.

In short, it sounds like your problem, similar to this one is what to do, and what is right. Is that above incident a diacotimy (sp?) of our fast-paced society? Should you have done something, could you have done something? What as a society are you responsible for? From the choice you made, it appears that it was the path with the least resistence (no pun intended). You did something, you tried to help but not getting apart of it, maybe it worked. I believe that people deserve whats comming to them. I'll defend the week and undeserved. I'm not gonna stick my nose in everything, thats how you get hurt. I always try to evaluate how a situation will affect me immediatly and in the long term. Its all in the choices you make. Choose your battles and conflicts wisely.
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Old January 18, 2001, 11:26 AM   #14
student2
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corsair

The incident that I was in is only similar in that they were fighting.

I was in a bus terminal with lots of people including familys. They were not wanting to watch a fight but go home. They reason that I grabbed the person was to keep poeple from getting crushed.

If I saw a planned fight where they are both mutual combatants I would not get involved. There was no true innocent in the way of the fight.

Travis McGee

your answer seems reasonable and I think that is what I will do in the future.

Oboviously talking is the best out of a situation like the one that I described. and hopefully the other person will respond and cool off. But I think that if the other person does attack me the proper response would be to try and restrain him and if that doesn't work something quick and effective where I will not be on the ground where his friends could attack me. Hopefull by this time some people with a conscience will also intervine and help.

I want to thank every one that asnwered this post. It has shown me different viewpoints to the situation and an insight to how some people think. Thanks again

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Old January 20, 2001, 02:07 AM   #15
Travis McGee
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Student2: Good thread, it is always worthwhile to go over in your mind what you would do in any emergency.
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Old January 29, 2001, 06:06 PM   #16
handgun357
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bogie has the correct answer this time.............
Sometimes just the mention of "cops" and "jail" are enough to settle things down.
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