Misfire

Bucksnort1 · February 9, 2019, 09:42 PM

All,

I'm usually darn good at quality control. When loading hand gun cartridges, I charge a specific number of cases then look in them to see if they look the same. One slipped past me and wound up with a bullet seated with no powder.

I heard no pop from the primer. This was for .357 with a small pistol primer. The bullet did not leave the case.

My question is this. Is there enough pressure from the primer alone to lodge a bullet in a barrel?

hounddawg · February 9, 2019, 09:49 PM

I can't speak for a .357 but those sub sonic 22LRs are just primer and have no powder in them

**44 AMP** · February 9, 2019, 10:00 PM

Quote:

My question is this. Is there enough pressure from the primer alone to lodge a bullet in a barrel?

Usually. Often there is enough force to drive the bullet completely into the barrel, sometimes only part way. In a revolver a bullet might stick part way into the barrel, extending back into the cylinder, tying up the gun.

It's actually rather rare to have a squib where the bullet doesn't move at all.

Technically, if the primer didn't go off, its a misfire, if the primer went off, and the powder didn't burn (because it wasn't there) or doesn't burn correctly (partial burn) its called a "squib". Pull the bullet and see if there are any scorch marks on the base. If yes, then the primer fired, and its a squib. If not, then we'll assume the primer didn't go off, making it a misfire.

Colorado Redneck · February 9, 2019, 10:08 PM

One time, my son bought a new Smith 357. Really nice firearm. My wife, son, daughter-in-law and I went to the range. I took a few hundred 357 handloads. My daughter-in-law was shooting that new Smith, when she encountered a squib load. The bullet left the case and lodged in the forcing cone. The base of the bullet protruded far enough into the cylinder that the cylinder couldn't rotate, thus locking up the action. That squib was one of my hand loads. The gunsmith told us it was "somebody's crappy hand load." I presume that squib had no powder. The gunsmith said if there had been even a very light charge, the bullet would have lodged in the barrel.

That's my experience.

higgite · February 10, 2019, 01:05 AM

Quote:

I heard no pop from the primer. This was for .357 with a small pistol primer. The bullet did not leave the case.

You didn't mention a couple of things, so I'll ask, no disrespect intended.
Did you restrike the primer or did you assume it fired on the first strike even though you didn't hear it?
Have you pulled the bullet to verify that there was no powder or are you assuming there was no powder because the bullet didn't leave the case?
Without those details, I'm wondering if you just had a high primer, not fully seated, that just didn't go off to ignite the powder.

Nick_C_S · February 10, 2019, 01:54 AM

Quote:

sometimes only part way. In a revolver a bullet might stick part way into the barrel, extending back into the cylinder, tying up the gun.

In 34 years of loading, the one squib I loaded did this ^^.

357 Magnum. It was a CCI 500 primer. The bullet was a plated 158 SWC (X-treme). The bullet jumped (taper) crimp but didn't completely exit the case. It stuck out far enough to lock up the cylinder. I had to drive it back into the case with a wooden dowel before I could open the cylinder. It sucked.

NoSecondBest · February 10, 2019, 02:37 AM

The above examples show something that's not always understood by a lot of handgun shooters who insist that a good crimp is needed with WW296/H110. The bullet has already broken loose from the crimp due to the primer alone before the powder is all consumed. The crimp is much less effective for burn that most think. I've loaded both of those powders (actually the same powder) with and without crimp and there is virtually no difference in load performance. ....just something to think about.

std7mag · February 10, 2019, 08:09 AM

Yes,
At least in my 45ACP.

Hence why i've learned that when i put powder in each case, i seat the bullet in that case.

That happened when i was trying to use my turret press as a single stage press. Hence why i also would recommend a turret press to a beginner.

rclark · February 10, 2019, 10:15 AM

Quote:

I heard no pop from the primer. This was for .357 with a small pistol primer. The bullet did not leave the case.

Therefore this has nothing to do with no powder. Your primer did not go off, otherwise the bullet would have left the case. As above did you try a 'restrike'? Sometimes if primer not seated properly a second hit will fire the cartridge ... or you just have a bad primer.

RC20 · February 10, 2019, 10:44 AM

Quote:

My question is this. Is there enough pressure from the primer alone to lodge a bullet in a barrel?

The is in 9mm, don't ask me how I know!

RC20 · February 10, 2019, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Therefore this has nothing to do with no powder. Your primer did not go off, otherwise the bullet would have left the case. As above did you try a 'restrike'? Sometimes if primer not seated properly a second hit will fire the cartridge ... or you just have a bad primer.

Being something of a bad example of a reloader I can tell you that is not true.

You don't hear a primer going off because there is no boom. I have done it in pistol and rifle.

The bullet may move, but lots of factors such as crimp, bullet, case etc that changes the results from one guys round to the next.

A 357 has a fair amount of room and he used small pistol primer (looks like non magnum). I do know rifles will move a small amount but not into the rifling.

I did at least one no powder fire in a 9mm and it went into the barrel. Very small case, not much crimp (gentle tapered)

Bucksnort1 · February 10, 2019, 11:30 AM

higgite,

No disrespect taken.

I did restrike the primer.

I did pull the bullet with the inertia hammer type puller. When I pull a bullet, I carefully dump the contents into a loading pan. There was no powder in the pan, only the bullet.

Someone asked about residue on the bottom of the bullet. I examined it carefully and did see what looked like residue; however, I was not able to scrape anything off with my fingernail. These bullets have a graphite coating. I compared the bullet base with a fresh bullet. Bases of the non-loaded bullets are a shiny; whereas, the pulled bullet was not.

I also examined the primer and compared it to fresh primers. To be honest with you, I think the primer did not go pop, or whatever it does, so I think I had a bad primer in a case with no powder.

The case was charged with 5.6 grains of Unique. Primer is a Winchester small pistol and it was seated properly. I am not into mass producing cartridges so I take my time. Each time I seat a primer, I slide my index finger over case head to see if they protrude and sometimes, I place the primed case on the smooth bench to see if it rocks and rolls.

mikld · February 10, 2019, 11:37 AM

Yes. BTDT a couple timed early in my reloading career. My first was in 1970 when using a Lee Loader, 38 Special. My second and last was in the early '80s when I first reloaded for my 44 Magnum on my first bench press. Both times no powder, a sickening "pop", and a bullet lodged in the barrel. That's when I refined my reloading "style" and haven't had an OOPS! since...

F. Guffey · February 10, 2019, 11:40 AM

Quote:

My question is this. Is there enough pressure from the primer alone to lodge a bullet in a barrel?

I have never seen a primer fail to launch the bullet into the forcing cone.

And then there is the assume part. Did you assume the primer was busted when the firing pin hit it? And then there is the possibility the primer backed out of the primer pocket.

And there is the possibility you obtained the record amount of crimp/bullet hold.

F. Guffey

Nick_C_S · February 10, 2019, 12:11 PM

Quote:

I heard no pop from the primer. This was for .357 with a small pistol primer. The bullet did not leave the case.

Quote:

Therefore this has nothing to do with no powder. Your primer did not go off, otherwise the bullet would have left the case.

With my squib event (see post #6), there was no sound either. But the primer did indeed discharge. All I heard was "click." I assumed the primer did not detonate; so I attempted to open the cylinder to index it back so I could re-stab the primer. But I couldn't open the cylinder - it was at that moment when I realized I had a no-propellant squib; and the primer did indeed discharge.

So just because there was no sound does not mean the primer didn't detonate. And it doesn't mean the bullet will fully leave the case either. I know this from first-hand experience.

T. O'Heir · February 10, 2019, 02:00 PM

"...the primer alone to..." Yep. As mentioned, your primer didn't go off though.
"...don't ask me how I know!..." I know, but I'm not tellin'. snicker.

F. Guffey · February 11, 2019, 10:34 AM

Quote:

And it doesn't mean the bullet will fully leave the case either.

The cylinder was locked, it could not be rotated, the hammer could not be pulled back and then there was the trigger' it could not be pulled.

That is what happened to the shooter at the firing range; standing next to me. I stopped shooting and then put all of my stuff up. It was then we offered to help him. We got a dowel and a small hammer to drive the bullet back into the case. We emptied his 357 Model 66 S&W and then gave the pistol back to him. He immediately started loading 6 more rounds into the pistol. He did not have a clue if the 6 rounds had powder, no powder or twice as much powder as recommended. It was not long before he got mad and left. We offered him all the ammo he could use, we offered to help him with his reloading, we offered to give him equipment and components. We could not convince him it was possible to determine the amount of powder in each case before firing.

F. Guffey

RC20 · February 11, 2019, 11:04 AM

Quote:

I also examined the primer and compared it to fresh primers. To be honest with you, I think the primer did not go pop, or whatever it does, so I think I had a bad primer in a case with no powder.

You clearly have a good handle on this but the odds of a bad primer with a case with no powder in your case and diligence is almost too low to calculate I believe.

Was it a non magnum primer? How heavy a crimp?

Ricklin · February 11, 2019, 11:07 AM

Yes, a 9 mm will stick a bullet in the barrel, I was fortunate, the next round would not chamber.

TailGator · February 11, 2019, 05:39 PM

Quote:

I also examined the primer and compared it to fresh primers. To be honest with you, I think the primer did not go pop, or whatever it does, so I think I had a bad primer in a case with no powder.

Quote:

You clearly have a good handle on this but the odds of a bad primer with a case with no powder in your case and diligence is almost too low to calculate I believe.

I agree, but I would call it a very happy coincidence. I have only made one squib, it was in 9 mm, and the primer lodged the bullet in the barrel. Not having to drive out a lodged bullet from an uncharged case because the primer didn't go off is extraordinarily good luck in my opinion.

Grey_Lion · February 11, 2019, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucksnort1

To be honest with you, I think the primer did not go pop, or whatever it does, so I think I had a bad primer in a case with no powder.

Primer is a Winchester small pistol and it was seated properly.

The typical primer will make a significant amount of sound. Take one out into the driveway some time and throw it down forcefully on the pavement. I had a deformed primer once and did this to "dispose" of it. It's almost as loud as the firing of a chambered round.

In a solid load process, the odds of having a bad primer go into one case which got no powder is incredibly slim..... - give up the lotto, you've blown your luck on this one event.

Happy this event ended without mishap.

I initially used Winchester primers but switched to CCI after the first 1100 WIN. I've had better luck and performance from CCI 500's in pistol.

Old 454 · February 12, 2019, 07:10 AM

I had a lot of squibs in my 454 Casull.

Loading 38.2 grains of H110 using small rifle primers... would not light all of the powder.
Switched to a small rifle magnum primer and not one squib since then

RC20 · February 12, 2019, 06:31 PM

Ok, as this is not a squib but a primer only ..........

If it was primer, it contained in a heavy gun, surrounded by a sound deadener and contained in the bullet.

It not open air or a no bullet in the case.

I am assuming but with ear muffs on?

Its a larger case than a 9mm which goes only a bit into the barrel.

Now I am going to have to build a non powdered 44 special and see what it does in a revolver. I will let you know.

F. Guffey · February 14, 2019, 04:05 PM

A shooter brought 5 failed to fire 30/06 rounds over to be checked for fail to fire. I pulled the bullets and powder and then I removed the primers. I installed the primers back into the came cases they were removed from and then reinstalled the primers.

I dug out one of my M1917 rifles and then chambered the cases one at a time and pulled the trigger. It was noisy.

I measured the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head before I started and I measured the length of the cases after I busted the primers. I thought about calling the Aberdeen Armory because workers there claim the firing pin striking the primer shortens the case from the shoulder to the case head .005".

And then there is the "Rest of the story". The rest of the story goes something like the shooter purchased a new 30/06 Ruger rifle with two boxes of new R-P ammo. 5 pf the first 120 failed to fire. He then passed the 5 failed to fire rounds to 4 shooters with 30/06 rifle in an attempt to determine if another firing pin would bust the primers in the failed to fire cases. All of the shooters took at least 2 attempts. So I figured there were at least 10 attempts at busting the primers.

NOW! there were rounds that no attempt was made at firing the new rounds. I measured the length of the failed to fire rounds, I measured the length of the l cases that fired from the shoulder to the case head and I measured the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head on the cases I chambered and busted.

I used fail proof home made gages when measuring the length of the cases from the shoulders to the case head. Was I surprised? No; even thought the firing pins in my M1917 are killer firing pins I have never agreed with that silly story about the firing pins driving the case forward and smacking the case into the shoulder of the chamber hard enough to shorten the case.

I did ask if they would consider other possibilities.

F. Guffey

gwpercle · February 14, 2019, 06:43 PM

Yes , in a J frame S&W , 38 special , a primer ignited and drove the jacketed bullet half way into the forcing cone , the Good Lord left the other half of the bullet protruding into the cylinder,
the young fool , who did the reloads , tried to cock the pistol again but it was locked up tight....thank You Dear Lord for saving my ignorant self.

A soft lead bullet, in a 38 special , the primer will be drive the bullet past the forcing cone into the barrel , the cylinder will turn and the gun can be fired again ! That situation will get you into trouble....but I learned... no bang , no recoil, no hole in target , anything out of the ordinary.....STOP !
You might have a problem !

I also learned it's OK to get real anal about powder charging .. I inspect each case for powder at least twice now...maybe three times .

Gary

February 9, 2019, 09:42 PM	#1
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,121	Misfire All, I'm usually darn good at quality control. When loading hand gun cartridges, I charge a specific number of cases then look in them to see if they look the same. One slipped past me and wound up with a bullet seated with no powder. I heard no pop from the primer. This was for .357 with a small pistol primer. The bullet did not leave the case. My question is this. Is there enough pressure from the primer alone to lodge a bullet in a barrel?

February 9, 2019, 09:49 PM	#2
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	I can't speak for a .357 but those sub sonic 22LRs are just primer and have no powder in them __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

February 10, 2019, 08:09 AM	#8
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Yes, At least in my 45ACP. Hence why i've learned that when i put powder in each case, i seat the bullet in that case. That happened when i was trying to use my turret press as a single stage press. Hence why i also would recommend a turret press to a beginner. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

February 10, 2019, 11:37 AM	#13
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Yes. BTDT a couple timed early in my reloading career. My first was in 1970 when using a Lee Loader, 38 Special. My second and last was in the early '80s when I first reloaded for my 44 Magnum on my first bench press. Both times no powder, a sickening "pop", and a bullet lodged in the barrel. That's when I refined my reloading "style" and haven't had an OOPS! since... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

February 10, 2019, 02:00 PM	#16
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...the primer alone to..." Yep. As mentioned, your primer didn't go off though. "...don't ask me how I know!..." I know, but I'm not tellin'. snicker. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

February 9, 2019, 10:08 PM	#4
Colorado Redneck Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2008 Location: Northeast Colorado Posts: 1,993	One time, my son bought a new Smith 357. Really nice firearm. My wife, son, daughter-in-law and I went to the range. I took a few hundred 357 handloads. My daughter-in-law was shooting that new Smith, when she encountered a squib load. The bullet left the case and lodged in the forcing cone. The base of the bullet protruded far enough into the cylinder that the cylinder couldn't rotate, thus locking up the action. That squib was one of my hand loads. The gunsmith told us it was "somebody's crappy hand load." I presume that squib had no powder. The gunsmith said if there had been even a very light charge, the bullet would have lodged in the barrel. That's my experience.

February 10, 2019, 02:37 AM	#7
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	The above examples show something that's not always understood by a lot of handgun shooters who insist that a good crimp is needed with WW296/H110. The bullet has already broken loose from the crimp due to the primer alone before the powder is all consumed. The crimp is much less effective for burn that most think. I've loaded both of those powders (actually the same powder) with and without crimp and there is virtually no difference in load performance. ....just something to think about.

February 10, 2019, 11:30 AM	#12
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,121	higgite, No disrespect taken. I did restrike the primer. I did pull the bullet with the inertia hammer type puller. When I pull a bullet, I carefully dump the contents into a loading pan. There was no powder in the pan, only the bullet. Someone asked about residue on the bottom of the bullet. I examined it carefully and did see what looked like residue; however, I was not able to scrape anything off with my fingernail. These bullets have a graphite coating. I compared the bullet base with a fresh bullet. Bases of the non-loaded bullets are a shiny; whereas, the pulled bullet was not. I also examined the primer and compared it to fresh primers. To be honest with you, I think the primer did not go pop, or whatever it does, so I think I had a bad primer in a case with no powder. The case was charged with 5.6 grains of Unique. Primer is a Winchester small pistol and it was seated properly. I am not into mass producing cartridges so I take my time. Each time I seat a primer, I slide my index finger over case head to see if they protrude and sometimes, I place the primed case on the smooth bench to see if it rocks and rolls.

February 11, 2019, 11:07 AM	#19
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,011	Don't ask Yes, a 9 mm will stick a bullet in the barrel, I was fortunate, the next round would not chamber. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

February 12, 2019, 07:10 AM	#22
Old 454 Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2011 Location: Chesterton Ind. Posts: 822	I had a lot of squibs in my 454 Casull. Loading 38.2 grains of H110 using small rifle primers... would not light all of the powder. Switched to a small rifle magnum primer and not one squib since then

February 12, 2019, 06:31 PM	#23
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Ok, as this is not a squib but a primer only .......... If it was primer, it contained in a heavy gun, surrounded by a sound deadener and contained in the bullet. It not open air or a no bullet in the case. I am assuming but with ear muffs on? Its a larger case than a 9mm which goes only a bit into the barrel. Now I am going to have to build a non powdered 44 special and see what it does in a revolver. I will let you know. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

February 14, 2019, 04:05 PM	#24
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	A shooter brought 5 failed to fire 30/06 rounds over to be checked for fail to fire. I pulled the bullets and powder and then I removed the primers. I installed the primers back into the came cases they were removed from and then reinstalled the primers. I dug out one of my M1917 rifles and then chambered the cases one at a time and pulled the trigger. It was noisy. I measured the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head before I started and I measured the length of the cases after I busted the primers. I thought about calling the Aberdeen Armory because workers there claim the firing pin striking the primer shortens the case from the shoulder to the case head .005". And then there is the "Rest of the story". The rest of the story goes something like the shooter purchased a new 30/06 Ruger rifle with two boxes of new R-P ammo. 5 pf the first 120 failed to fire. He then passed the 5 failed to fire rounds to 4 shooters with 30/06 rifle in an attempt to determine if another firing pin would bust the primers in the failed to fire cases. All of the shooters took at least 2 attempts. So I figured there were at least 10 attempts at busting the primers. NOW! there were rounds that no attempt was made at firing the new rounds. I measured the length of the failed to fire rounds, I measured the length of the l cases that fired from the shoulder to the case head and I measured the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head on the cases I chambered and busted. I used fail proof home made gages when measuring the length of the cases from the shoulders to the case head. Was I surprised? No; even thought the firing pins in my M1917 are killer firing pins I have never agreed with that silly story about the firing pins driving the case forward and smacking the case into the shoulder of the chamber hard enough to shorten the case. I did ask if they would consider other possibilities. F. Guffey

February 14, 2019, 06:43 PM	#25
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	Yes , in a J frame S&W , 38 special , a primer ignited and drove the jacketed bullet half way into the forcing cone , the Good Lord left the other half of the bullet protruding into the cylinder, the young fool , who did the reloads , tried to cock the pistol again but it was locked up tight....thank You Dear Lord for saving my ignorant self. A soft lead bullet, in a 38 special , the primer will be drive the bullet past the forcing cone into the barrel , the cylinder will turn and the gun can be fired again ! That situation will get you into trouble....but I learned... no bang , no recoil, no hole in target , anything out of the ordinary.....STOP ! You might have a problem ! I also learned it's OK to get real anal about powder charging .. I inspect each case for powder at least twice now...maybe three times . Gary Last edited by gwpercle; February 14, 2019 at 06:51 PM.