5.7mm Johnson

[hdwhit]

I recently joined The Firing Line, so apart from my Introduction post, this is my first time posting here.

I have a Plainfield/Iver-Johnson Carbine chambered in 5.7mm Johnson (a/k/a 22 Spitfire) which is simply a 30 Carbine case necked down to 22.

I have been attempting to load for it since I bought it in 1983.

• I have the load data published by Pacific Cartridge prior to the Hornady acquisition.
• I have the load data published in Cartridges of the World
• I have load data provided by the research department at the American Rifleman.
• I have been in contact with Melvin Johnson's son who worked with his father at Johnson Armaments.
• I bought custom made forming and trim dies from RCBS.
• I have RCBS reloading dies.
• I have had the chamber cast and it conforms to the dimension of the case produced by the forming dies.
• I ream the case neck after forming to ensure is within the range RCBS gave me in the instructions that came with the forming dies.
• And yet, even working from below the minimum loads in the published sources, I get signs of excessive pressure.

I would like to know if there is anyone here who has any experience with the cartridge that can help me work out what I'm doing wrong with my load.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

[HiBC]

I don't know what is going on.I have no experience with the 5.7.
Seems like you have been quite thorough.

My hunch,odds are your old load data may be out of date.DuPont is not making powder.The Hogdon surplus powder is gone.
A lot of the same powder names are still in use,but that powder is made by different folks at a different facility using different processes and maybe a different recipe.

Published charge weights today are not the same as they were in the day of the 5.7.

I don't know the exact safe pressure for the M1 Carbine.Its not full modern bolt action.Its someplace in the 40 k's ,probably CUP.

What pressure signs are you seeing? More to the point,is it about strength,or how the gas system is responding?

[hdwhit]

HiBC wrote:
I don't know the exact safe pressure for the M1 Carbine.

Your supposition was very good. The Carbine was rated for 40,000 CUP.

DuPont is not making powder.

Yes. But, the little Johnson carbine grabbed my attention in the 1980's and I've still got 1980's vintage IMR-4227, IMR-4198 and Hercules 2400.

What pressure signs are you seeing?

The typical ones of smashed primers, flow of the primer cup around the firing pin, distortion of the headstamp and ejector marks on the case head.

[RC20]

See if you can get some quick load data run (ok once in a while)

You can just use less powder as well.

[hdwhit]

RC20 wrote:
See if you can get some quick load data run

I don't have Quickload, but someone on another site who does ran 35 and 40 grain loads using Hercules 2400 and IMR-4227 and Quickload was coming back saying to start at 12.5 grains with 40 grains (same as the load published by Pacific), but I was already down at 11.5 grains as the lightest load that would function the action and I was still getting pressure signs.

[dewcrew8]

wdwhit, I would love to start reloading for this guy also !! were is the 1st place to you started looking for info! I do have the dies and brass.This 5.7 j has
been sleeping to long !

[HiBC]

Once again,I know nothing about the 5.7.
You are using what might be called slow pistol powders,good for the 30 Carbine.
There is quite a difference in expansion ratio between the straight sided carbine case and the necked down 22.
A cartridge like the 221 Fireball IS NOT interchangeable,but it might give you some leads toward a more ideal powder choice.
So might the 22 Hornet and 218 Bee.
Some of the lower vel .222 benchrest loads might also suggest powders.
Myself,I'd look to slower,more "rifle" powders and then sneak up on chrono'd.not estimated,5.7 velocities.
I take primer reads as worth watching,as part of the total picture.
But brass extrusion into the ejector is a pretty definitive "Whoa!"
A wild guess,a powder like Benchmark might be worth a try.

[hdwhit]

dewcrew8 wrote:
were is the 1st place to you started looking for info

• I started with a Pacific Reloading manual which gave me some potential load data.
• I then moved on to Cartridges of the World which discusses the cartridge's history.
• I purchased case forming and trim dies from RCBS and their support staff provided information on the cartridge.
• I contacted The American Rifleman and asked what information they had. They had some historical data and some load data very similar to the Pacific data.
• In 1993, I was stricken with a neurological condition that nearly killed me, left me handicapped and caused me to shelve this project for some years.
• I returned to this project in 2011 and did a number of internet searches for information. Sites like:

• http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_ij.html
• http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/
• http://www.milsurps.com/
• http://www.johnsonautomatics.com (and the associated forum)
• http://www.imageseek.com/5.7mm
• All were helpful. The ImageSeek forum was able to hook me up with Melvin Johnson's son, who had worked for his father's company and he was able to provide a wealth of information.

In addition, I have compiled a fairly large body of empirical knowledge from my attempts to load and fire hundreds of rounds.

[hdwhit]

HiBC wrote:
A cartridge like the 221 Fireball IS NOT interchangeable,but it might give you some leads toward a more ideal powder choice.
So might the 22 Hornet and 218 Bee.

Early on, I did a comparative analysis of the volumes of the:

• 22 Hornet
• 22 PPC
• 221 Remington

for clues as to the starting load. I did have the Pacific and Cartridges of the World data to go by as well as the fact that commercially loaded 5.7mm Johnson cartridges used IMR-4227. Based on this, I started at 11 grains of IMR-4227 and bumped that up to 11.5 grains to get it to work the action.

I also tried Hercules 2400 and IMR-4198. The results from 2400 were comparable to IMR-4227. I could not come up with an IMR-4198 load that would reliably cycle the action so I did not move on to "slower" powders.

It has been suggested that among more recent powders, Accurate 5744 or Accurate 1680 might fit in the gap between IMR-4227 and IMR-4198 and do the trick.

[hdwhit]

HiBC wrote:
...sneak up on chrono'd.not estimated,5.7 velocities.

All of my test loads are chronographed.

[SHR970]

What primers are you using? I ask because back then Fed. 200 primers were listed in Hornady 4 AND by Fed. themselves as Pistol Mag. & small rifle. In 30 Carb. applications I ran into flat primers with start loads of H110 / W296. I switched to CCI and Win. and no flat primers.

If your load data is with Fed. 200 primers either change out to 205's or another small rifle primer.

[hdwhit]

SHR970 wrote:
What primers are you using?

Good question. When I started, the only primers I could get were CCI400 Small Rifle Primers or CCI BR4 Small Rifle Bench Rest Primers. They are the ones being deformed.

I can no longer easily get CCI primers locally, so I have switched to Winchester Small Rifle (WSR) primers. But, I still have 80+ rounds of formed, sized and primed brass primed with the CCI primers to use up before I get into the Winchester stash.

[hdwhit]

dewcrew8 wrote:
wdwhit, I would love to start reloading for this guy also !

If you are interested in discussing reloading the 5.7mm Johnson in more detail, please feel free to PM me.

Also, do you currently have a 5.7mm Johnson rifle? If so, was a commercial rifle purpose built as a 5.7 or was it an M1 Carbine that was converted? If converted, who did the work?

I ask because while it would seem that all that is necessary to make the conversion is to yank off the 30 Caliber barrel and spin on a 22 Caliber barrel, the fact the 5.7mm is a bottleneck cartridge with a pointy bullet as opposed to the round nose of the 30 Carbine means that converted rifles can have feeding problems with the rounds hanging up on the lip of the receiver if a feed ramp was not either soldered in place or built up out of brazing material by the company/gunsmith doing the conversion.

Also, there is some inconsistency in the barrels used by various manufacturers. Some actually have a 0.2230 bore. Others are 0.2240. The Johnson ones apparently had a bore somewhere around 0.2235. If you're asking the cartridge to not only propel the bullet down the barrel, but also "swage" it to a smaller diameter in the process, that can raise chamber pressures and affect performance.

You may want to have your chamber and bore case by a gunsmith (or do it yourself with Cerrosafe that you can get from Midway or several other sellers) to be sure. Be aware that Cerrosafe changes dimensions over the course of a few hours after it is cast, so you want to be ready to make your measurements as soon as you do the cast.

If your bore is 0.2230 or 0.2235, Sierra still makes 40 and 45 grain bullets in 0.2230 diameter that you can use. Check neck tension if you are using 0.2230 bullets as many reloading dies are supplied with expanders intended for use with 0.2240 bullets. You may need to contact your die maker and have them supply an expander plug for 0.2230 bullets. RCBS did not charge me for this.

[hdwhit]

I want to thank everyone who contributed their experience and ideas to answering my question. I am still oping to find someone who is successfully reloading the cartridge and can share that experience with me.

On other forums, I have found only four other people who admit to having attempted to load for the cartridge and none of them appear to be currently doing so. The heyday of the Carbine in civilian hands was in the 1960's. The 5.7 was only made by a few manufacturers/converters most doing their work in the 1960's and 1970's with the last being done in the late 1980's. Given that was now four decades ago, I suspect that most of the people who owned the guns and loaded for them have passed away or gotten so old that they don't venture on-line and that their heirs have no idea what to do with the rifles or the reloading equipment.

I don't like to think that I may be the last dinosaur walking around trying to make this cartridge work, but if I am, so be it. I will hope in the end to at least make sure that the last 5.7mm Johnson rounds made are well-crafted.

[dewcrew8]

mine was a conversion off a quality hmc carbine, with a nice aftermarket stock .I don't know when It was done .It was giving to me as a gift and they thought it was a basic 30 carbine.I only found out when I was trying to shoot it and the round wouldn't chamber .

[hdwhit]

dewcrew8 wrote:
...they thought it was a basic 30 carbine.I only found out when I was trying to shoot it and the round wouldn't chamber.

First, this is why I generally give cash for gifts. Less sentiment, I know, but also less chance of someone getting something they don't want.

Second, I can only imagine how you felt as the fact you had a wildcat cartridge on your hands dawned on you. After all, I went out looking for the rifle while you had it thrust upon you.

Third, congratulations on being bold enough to rise to the challenge!

Do you know for sure what the barrel diameter is? As noted in my previous post, it could be 0.2230, 0.2240 or anything in between.