Complete Martial Arts

Rosco P. Coltrain · February 11, 2000, 04:37 PM

I was reading a previous thread about Martial Arts here and I would like to make a few points that were never made in the thread.

1- There is a difference between martial arts and the sports junk that is passed off as martial arts. Judo, Karate, Sumo-kata, et cetera are sports, not martial arts. While they do have elements that are adaptable to personal protection they are designed as sports.

2- Any martial arts training should include training with weapons. Knives, firearms, baseball bats, police batons, any weapon that you might encounter today.

3- Martials arts training that does not include strength and fitness training is hopelessly limited. Why do you think Chuck Noris is busy pimping those fitness machines of his? Most serious martial arts students are also seldom without a set of handgrips of some sort.

4- A lot of elements of martial arts are often left out. Do you know how to move silently? Hide effectively? Evade pursuit? These are all important aspects of self defense. If you enemy cannot find you, it is alot harder for them to hurt you.

ctdonath · February 12, 2000, 10:34 AM

1- There is a difference between martial arts and the sports junk that is passed off as martial arts.

I wouldn't necessarily call them "junk". What makes a martial art an "art" is included emphasis on beauty, spirit, philosophy, etc. Karate can be learned purely as sport or technique, and handguns can be taught with artistic factors.

2- Any martial arts training should include training with weapons. Knives, firearms, baseball bats, police batons, any weapon that you might encounter today.

While such education is certainly a good idea, requiring the inclusion in a particular art may be counter-productive. A given tool has limitations on its use, and its range of use may simply not fit within a given martial art. Handing a sword to a boxer simply doesn't work.

Learning multiple martial arts is more what you're looking for. I've addressed different systems to have access a spectrum of weapons: gun, sword, knife, stick, hand. Depending on the situation and tools needed, I'll switch to a different system.

3- Martials arts training that does not include strength and fitness training is hopelessly limited.

Strength is one thing, fitness is another.

Strength may be irrelevant for some people: regardless of how strong they try to be, some just won't be strong enough (hence the need for equalizing tools). One instructor emphasizes the "Bambi vs. Gozilla" issue: my petite 5' girlfriend simply will never have enough raw strength to fight off a burly 6' rapist...but if she knows certain techniques and throws her total weight against one of his joints, she'll win.

Fitness is obviously necessary. Don't forget that it includes knowing your own abilities and limitations. A shuffling, crippled old man can still drop a thug via a cane if he can employ techniques adequately thru appropriate fitness.

Why do you think Chuck Noris is busy pimping those fitness machines of his?

Because it makes him truckloads of cash. Period.

Most serious martial arts students are also seldom without a set of handgrips of some sort.

...IF that student needs strong hands for his techniques. Strong hands are not particularly special in the techniqes I study.

4- A lot of elements of martial arts are often left out. Do you know how to move silently? Hide effectively? Evade pursuit? These are all important aspects of self defense. If you enemy cannot find you, it is alot harder for them to hurt you.

"The most difficult kata is kata #37: Run Away."

Your comments make me wonder: what do you actually study?

Svt · February 12, 2000, 12:03 PM

Ah, the endless debate of what actually is martial arts. Rosco, you have no idea what the purpose of martial arts is. Mind, body and spirit can over-come any power punching show-off. If I was faced with a situation, I would first try to run-away. Even though I know I can kill the man with my fists and feet and of course, my firearm. I still would rather run-away.
I was not allowed to learn any other discipline until I mastered Shaolin Kung Fu. Since my father is of Chinese descent and my mother Vietnamese, I spent 11 years being a student of Kung Fu.
Kung Fu is amazing that there is no strength requirement. No hardcore Chuck Norris workout. What gets a workout is your mind and reflexes. I guarantee you a 5’5” Kung Fu Grandmaster will destroy a 6’4” 250 power punching, muscle rippling “martial arts champion”. You can not replace reflexes and anticipation.
If you train in true martial arts, you train to relax your mind and spirit. You do not train for the sole purpose of being a lethal fighting machine. That is not the purpose of martial arts.
At age 16, I took up Muay Thai Kick Boxing. With Muay Thai, I learned speed, speed, and placement. Most think you have to lift a ton of weights to be a strong puncher. Not true. A perfectly placed punch can be lethal.
With the many years of martial arts training, I came into the Army with a “nothing can destroy me” mentality. I went through airborne, air assault, and best of all, Ranger School. I served 4 years as part of Alpha Co. 75th Inf. 2nd Ranger Bn.
All that, and I stand 5’5” 110 lbs.

There are many roads that lead to the Way, but these contain but two common features: recognition and practice. By recognition is meant that meditation reveals the truth that all living things share a common nature, a nature concealed by the veils of illusion.

Second, adapt to your conditions. Mortals are ruled by their surroundings, not by themselves. All we experience depends upon surroundings. If we reap a reward or great boon, it is the fruit of a seed we planted long ago. Eventually, it will end. Do not delight in these boons, for what is the point? In a mind unmoved by reward and setback, the journey on the path continues.
------------------
Svt
RKBA!
NRA, GOA, VFW
Son's Place

Rangers Lead the Way

[This message has been edited by Svt (edited February 12, 2000).]

ddt4free · February 12, 2000, 06:39 PM

You can get some good stuff from sport martial arts and real martial arts as well. Growing up in a Town most noted for it's prisons I've kicked some butt and had my butt kicked and I will tell you that all the martial training in the world isn't worth a thimble full of experience in actual HTH.

My suggestion is to learn and practice practice practice the basics of as many arts as possible becoming an expert at only the most simple and powerful techniques. You will find only the simple stuff ever gets used in the real world. Some art's like Thai Boxing are designed on using simple techniques effectively. Do not neglect ground fighting and traditional wrestling techniques as most real fight's go to the ground quickly.

In General, learn hand techniques from japanese and southern asian styles, learn foot techniques form the Thai, Koreans and Northern chinese stlyes, learn throws grappling and Joint techniques from the Japanese stlyes and Greco roman wrestlers. Throw in a little all American bad attitude and you've just tranformed yourself into a can of whup ass!

stdalire · February 13, 2000, 03:28 AM

Greeting Rosco:
I will answer your questions/comments to the best of my knowledge.

I- There is a difference between martial arts and the sports junk that is passed off as martial arts. Judo, Karate, Sumo-kata, et cetera are sports, not martial arts. While they do have elements that are adaptable to personal protection they are designed as sports.

A. I consider all kinds of Martial Arts, like Karate and Judo etc. as for self defense purpose and sport if we will use to compete on top of the MAT at the clubs or for the throphy.

A dedicated martial arts player will embeded his arts to his spiritual life also and in any way or the other wherever is that person be, he do some kind of meditation in his martial arts training for the body health & coordination of body and mind. I studied Martial Arts for self defense not for trophy - that is my own opinion. And I have defeated several opponent in actual fight. Even now, in a true hand to hand fight, I will face any opponent even he is a big guy for I know I can also land a deadly blow to himself, but I am not understimating any opponent capability. Words is different from doing in actual.

2- Any martial arts training should include training with weapons. Knives, firearms, baseball bats, police batons, any weapon that you might encounter today.

A. Yes, I have training in Balisong, other Knives, Chaku, Sword (kendo) and Arnis (Way of the bolo). That is why in my community in my province and in Manila, I am noted for as being a silent man just attending my family affairs, and as karatista but I never been started a trouble but I have kicked several BG's and never fear any street ganster, perhaps if you are a mediocre man like me and live in a 3rd class subdivisions, you may be passing some drunkards making the street as their drinking session, and if you could pass those people without fear and never touched by them, that means they have respect with you not perhaps the personality but think twice because of the knowledge or skill of the person in MA for it has been proven in some instances. But to be frank with any one, I never use the martial arts weaponry (if I am holding one) not unless I know I will be killed and that is another story. My principles in life is, don't touch me nor hit me and I will be harmless guy and never start a fight.

3- Martials arts training that does not include strength and fitness training is hopelessly limited. Why do you think Chuck Noris is busy pimping those fitness machines of his? Most serious martial arts students are also seldom without a set of handgrips of some sort.

A. Yes, we really need strength and fitness training depending that suited of our expertise and can never be the same training with any one, you trained your knuckles so punch a a Makiwara with rope tied on the tip of the 2x4 lumber, if practrice Judo then have a partner to practice with. The Judoist people have their own way of training, so with the karatista and the Arnistador. But not brute force will always prevail that is why we have the so called techniques and tactical as being discussed and interpreted by many. The man from the very beginning of his existence develop a techniques and strategies to defeat his enemies be it a big animals or fellow human beings. Either he resorted to barehands weapon or with the aid of a material weapon of any kind. hard training has always a price. If like Chuck Norris portraying a Texas ranger, he needs a well shaped body to be fitted in his character in the TV or movie.

4- A lot of elements of martial arts are often left out. Do you know how to move silently? Hide effectively? Evade pursuit? These are all important aspects of self defense. If you enemy cannot find you, it is alot harder for them to hurt you.

Oh! yes, I practice all the elements of silence, surprise, evasion, and deception etc. these are all parts of Martial Arts. I escaped the Military Camp during my Marine Basic Training in the Marines, for I found out that soldiering is not for myself but I am ready to serve my country in another way if needed.

There are more things to discussed but I limit myself to that point. What you have mentiened Rosco are all parts of the Martial Arts training.

We should note that many expert who are not famous but are true assassins.

Thank you,

[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited February 13, 2000).]

February 11, 2000, 04:37 PM	#1
Rosco P. Coltrain Junior member Join Date: October 7, 1999 Posts: 267	I was reading a previous thread about Martial Arts here and I would like to make a few points that were never made in the thread. 1- There is a difference between martial arts and the sports junk that is passed off as martial arts. Judo, Karate, Sumo-kata, et cetera are sports, not martial arts. While they do have elements that are adaptable to personal protection they are designed as sports. 2- Any martial arts training should include training with weapons. Knives, firearms, baseball bats, police batons, any weapon that you might encounter today. 3- Martials arts training that does not include strength and fitness training is hopelessly limited. Why do you think Chuck Noris is busy pimping those fitness machines of his? Most serious martial arts students are also seldom without a set of handgrips of some sort. 4- A lot of elements of martial arts are often left out. Do you know how to move silently? Hide effectively? Evade pursuit? These are all important aspects of self defense. If you enemy cannot find you, it is alot harder for them to hurt you.

February 12, 2000, 10:34 AM	#2
ctdonath Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 1999 Posts: 1,904	1- There is a difference between martial arts and the sports junk that is passed off as martial arts. I wouldn't necessarily call them "junk". What makes a martial art an "art" is included emphasis on beauty, spirit, philosophy, etc. Karate can be learned purely as sport or technique, and handguns can be taught with artistic factors. 2- Any martial arts training should include training with weapons. Knives, firearms, baseball bats, police batons, any weapon that you might encounter today. While such education is certainly a good idea, requiring the inclusion in a particular art may be counter-productive. A given tool has limitations on its use, and its range of use may simply not fit within a given martial art. Handing a sword to a boxer simply doesn't work. Learning multiple martial arts is more what you're looking for. I've addressed different systems to have access a spectrum of weapons: gun, sword, knife, stick, hand. Depending on the situation and tools needed, I'll switch to a different system. 3- Martials arts training that does not include strength and fitness training is hopelessly limited. Strength is one thing, fitness is another. Strength may be irrelevant for some people: regardless of how strong they try to be, some just won't be strong enough (hence the need for equalizing tools). One instructor emphasizes the "Bambi vs. Gozilla" issue: my petite 5' girlfriend simply will never have enough raw strength to fight off a burly 6' rapist...but if she knows certain techniques and throws her total weight against one of his joints, she'll win. Fitness is obviously necessary. Don't forget that it includes knowing your own abilities and limitations. A shuffling, crippled old man can still drop a thug via a cane if he can employ techniques adequately thru appropriate fitness. Why do you think Chuck Noris is busy pimping those fitness machines of his? Because it makes him truckloads of cash. Period. Most serious martial arts students are also seldom without a set of handgrips of some sort. ...IF that student needs strong hands for his techniques. Strong hands are not particularly special in the techniqes I study. 4- A lot of elements of martial arts are often left out. Do you know how to move silently? Hide effectively? Evade pursuit? These are all important aspects of self defense. If you enemy cannot find you, it is alot harder for them to hurt you. "The most difficult kata is kata #37: Run Away." Your comments make me wonder: what do you actually study?

February 12, 2000, 12:03 PM	#3
Svt Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2000 Posts: 467	Ah, the endless debate of what actually is martial arts. Rosco, you have no idea what the purpose of martial arts is. Mind, body and spirit can over-come any power punching show-off. If I was faced with a situation, I would first try to run-away. Even though I know I can kill the man with my fists and feet and of course, my firearm. I still would rather run-away. I was not allowed to learn any other discipline until I mastered Shaolin Kung Fu. Since my father is of Chinese descent and my mother Vietnamese, I spent 11 years being a student of Kung Fu. Kung Fu is amazing that there is no strength requirement. No hardcore Chuck Norris workout. What gets a workout is your mind and reflexes. I guarantee you a 5’5” Kung Fu Grandmaster will destroy a 6’4” 250 power punching, muscle rippling “martial arts champion”. You can not replace reflexes and anticipation. If you train in true martial arts, you train to relax your mind and spirit. You do not train for the sole purpose of being a lethal fighting machine. That is not the purpose of martial arts. At age 16, I took up Muay Thai Kick Boxing. With Muay Thai, I learned speed, speed, and placement. Most think you have to lift a ton of weights to be a strong puncher. Not true. A perfectly placed punch can be lethal. With the many years of martial arts training, I came into the Army with a “nothing can destroy me” mentality. I went through airborne, air assault, and best of all, Ranger School. I served 4 years as part of Alpha Co. 75th Inf. 2nd Ranger Bn. All that, and I stand 5’5” 110 lbs. There are many roads that lead to the Way, but these contain but two common features: recognition and practice. By recognition is meant that meditation reveals the truth that all living things share a common nature, a nature concealed by the veils of illusion. Second, adapt to your conditions. Mortals are ruled by their surroundings, not by themselves. All we experience depends upon surroundings. If we reap a reward or great boon, it is the fruit of a seed we planted long ago. Eventually, it will end. Do not delight in these boons, for what is the point? In a mind unmoved by reward and setback, the journey on the path continues. ------------------ Svt RKBA! NRA, GOA, VFW Son's Place *Rangers Lead the Way* [This message has been edited by Svt (edited February 12, 2000).]

February 12, 2000, 06:39 PM	#4
ddt4free Junior member Join Date: February 8, 2000 Posts: 217	You can get some good stuff from sport martial arts and real martial arts as well. Growing up in a Town most noted for it's prisons I've kicked some butt and had my butt kicked and I will tell you that all the martial training in the world isn't worth a thimble full of experience in actual HTH. My suggestion is to learn and practice practice practice the basics of as many arts as possible becoming an expert at only the most simple and powerful techniques. You will find only the simple stuff ever gets used in the real world. Some art's like Thai Boxing are designed on using simple techniques effectively. Do not neglect ground fighting and traditional wrestling techniques as most real fight's go to the ground quickly. In General, learn hand techniques from japanese and southern asian styles, learn foot techniques form the Thai, Koreans and Northern chinese stlyes, learn throws grappling and Joint techniques from the Japanese stlyes and Greco roman wrestlers. Throw in a little all American bad attitude and you've just tranformed yourself into a can of whup ass!

February 13, 2000, 03:28 AM	#5
stdalire Senior Member Join Date: September 1, 1999 Posts: 343	Greeting Rosco: I will answer your questions/comments to the best of my knowledge. I- There is a difference between martial arts and the sports junk that is passed off as martial arts. Judo, Karate, Sumo-kata, et cetera are sports, not martial arts. While they do have elements that are adaptable to personal protection they are designed as sports. A. I consider all kinds of Martial Arts, like Karate and Judo etc. as for self defense purpose and sport if we will use to compete on top of the MAT at the clubs or for the throphy. A dedicated martial arts player will embeded his arts to his spiritual life also and in any way or the other wherever is that person be, he do some kind of meditation in his martial arts training for the body health & coordination of body and mind. I studied Martial Arts for self defense not for trophy - that is my own opinion. And I have defeated several opponent in actual fight. Even now, in a true hand to hand fight, I will face any opponent even he is a big guy for I know I can also land a deadly blow to himself, but I am not understimating any opponent capability. Words is different from doing in actual. 2- Any martial arts training should include training with weapons. Knives, firearms, baseball bats, police batons, any weapon that you might encounter today. A. Yes, I have training in Balisong, other Knives, Chaku, Sword (kendo) and Arnis (Way of the bolo). That is why in my community in my province and in Manila, I am noted for as being a silent man just attending my family affairs, and as karatista but I never been started a trouble but I have kicked several BG's and never fear any street ganster, perhaps if you are a mediocre man like me and live in a 3rd class subdivisions, you may be passing some drunkards making the street as their drinking session, and if you could pass those people without fear and never touched by them, that means they have respect with you not perhaps the personality but think twice because of the knowledge or skill of the person in MA for it has been proven in some instances. But to be frank with any one, I never use the martial arts weaponry (if I am holding one) not unless I know I will be killed and that is another story. My principles in life is, don't touch me nor hit me and I will be harmless guy and never start a fight. 3- Martials arts training that does not include strength and fitness training is hopelessly limited. Why do you think Chuck Noris is busy pimping those fitness machines of his? Most serious martial arts students are also seldom without a set of handgrips of some sort. A. Yes, we really need strength and fitness training depending that suited of our expertise and can never be the same training with any one, you trained your knuckles so punch a a Makiwara with rope tied on the tip of the 2x4 lumber, if practrice Judo then have a partner to practice with. The Judoist people have their own way of training, so with the karatista and the Arnistador. But not brute force will always prevail that is why we have the so called techniques and tactical as being discussed and interpreted by many. The man from the very beginning of his existence develop a techniques and strategies to defeat his enemies be it a big animals or fellow human beings. Either he resorted to barehands weapon or with the aid of a material weapon of any kind. hard training has always a price. If like Chuck Norris portraying a Texas ranger, he needs a well shaped body to be fitted in his character in the TV or movie. 4- A lot of elements of martial arts are often left out. Do you know how to move silently? Hide effectively? Evade pursuit? These are all important aspects of self defense. If you enemy cannot find you, it is alot harder for them to hurt you. Oh! yes, I practice all the elements of silence, surprise, evasion, and deception etc. these are all parts of Martial Arts. I escaped the Military Camp during my Marine Basic Training in the Marines, for I found out that soldiering is not for myself but I am ready to serve my country in another way if needed. There are more things to discussed but I limit myself to that point. What you have mentiened Rosco are all parts of the Martial Arts training. We should note that many expert who are not famous but are true assassins. Thank you, [This message has been edited by stdalire (edited February 13, 2000).]