Neck turning help...please

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · January 6, 2009, 11:56 PM

Hey guys...I just got my hands on some Remington Bulk .243 WIN brass (unfired, FL Sized). I am new to neck turning brass...but I do know the basics. Upon measuring the width of the brass at the neck with the tip of the mic, I am finding that the neck widths are all over the place (from .0155 to .013....many times on the same piece of brass!!). This is not normal is it???!!! As far as turning the necks, I understand that you are not suppose to necessarily turn the entire neck, but try to know down the "high spots". I set my neck turner to cut the neck to .013" and of course I am taking brass shavings off the entire cutting area. Is .013" to thin for the neck??? I would sure like to have consistent necks.....but I don't want to make them too thin. Thanks in advance guys!!

~~ICH~~

LHB1 · January 7, 2009, 12:17 AM

ICH,
I (outside) turned the necks on my .25/06 brass to .012" and 7 Rem Mag brass to .013". Haven't had any problems with them BUT if you get the necks too thin/small, the factory sizing dies will not reduce the neck enough to hold bullets firmly. I didn't try my turned cases with factory dies but chose to buy bench rest dies with custom sized insert rings for the sizer and seater. These dies are used in a simple arbor press. The insert rings are available in increments of .001" so you can reduce the neck by about .003" when sizing and then allow .001" over total diameter of twice the neck thickness plus bullet diameter when seating. Hope this helps.

Sam06 · January 7, 2009, 09:01 AM

This should answer your question IllYote, its from Varmint Al and its the way I do it for Factory Chambers:

In Varmint Al's words:

Quote:

OUTSIDE CASE NECK TURNING.... I started to get true accuracy when I began using the Marquart outside neck turning tool to true up my cartridge case necks. It looks like the Marquart Neck Turning Tool for under $50 is now being manufactured by a different company. They claim the same design, precision, and quality for 21 years. I have not tried a Marquart tool from the new company, but the info is given below.
Morrison Precision L.L.C.
6719 Calle Mango
Hereford, AZ 85615
520-378-6207
[email protected]

If you can't find a Marquart Tool, the K&M or Sinclair neck turning tools are probably just as good, but I haven't personally tried them. Here is the info to get the K&M Neck Turning Tool directly from the manufacturer:

K&M Services
5430 Salmon Run Rd.
Dover, PA 17315
717-292-3175

Neck turning provides a neck with uniform wall thickness, helps to center the bullet on the bore axis, and reduces split necks. Neck turning also sorts out the cases that have large variations in wall thickness because, once turned, the poorer cases are easily identified and can be tossed into the bone pile.

NECK TURNING FOR FACTORY-CHAMBERED RIFLES.... Here is how I adjust the neck turning tool for my factory-chambered rifles that usually have a sloppy 0.010 inch of neck clearance. I pick out 10 new cases at random. Then, as I always do even with new cases, neck size them, including the expander plug, so the neck ID will be round and tight on the neck turning mandrel. I also lightly chamfer the ID and OD of the neck mouth to remove the "rolled over edge" from factory case polishing. The mandrel needs to turn hard inside the case neck even when there is no cutting action. A tight fitting mandrel is the only way you can really make accurate cuts. I adjust the depth of cut so it barely cuts any material and then go through all 10 cases. Usually, there will be one or two cases that clean up practically all the way around and a few that cut heavily only on one side. I increase the depth of the cut a slight amount and go through the 10 cases again. I continue this process until about 75% of the cases clean up about 80% to 90% of the neck outside surface. Caution: Do not set your neck turning tool so it makes a clean cut on all of the cases, because it will make the necks too thin and you will have ruined all of the cases. Therefore, with the correct setting, it means I will reject 2 or 3 out of 10 cases to the bone pile. I have found that Winchester brass usually has thicker necks than Remington brass and appears to last longer. I keep that setting on the neck turning tool and turn all the cases in that lot of brass. No more neck turning is required for the life of these cases. The neck turned cases will improve accuracy by decreasing the group sizes approximately 50% and get rid of most of the wild fliers. Another advantage of neck turned cases is the reduction of split necks. The uniform wall thickness causes uniform stretching of the neck wall during firing and uniform compression during neck resizing.

Here is the page where you can find this and lots of more info:http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm#Neck_Turning

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · January 7, 2009, 09:12 AM

LBH1...I will be using my lee collet neck sizer to resize after first firing....so I should have no problems resizing them at .013" neck wall thickness. Thanks guys!!!

Scorch · January 7, 2009, 12:29 PM

Turn the necks until you get about 90% cleaned up around the circumference. I just neck turn my brass to uniform the neck thicknesses at .012". If you turn them until they are clean all the way arouns, you will reduce neck tension and cases will split after a few reloads unless you have a tight custom chamber.

Nnobby45 · January 7, 2009, 06:27 PM

Well, you seem to be getting good advice. My system for turning necks is to measure a few cases and take the one with the smallest thickness on one side, then adjust the cutter to just touch, but not cut that side. When you're done turning all your cases, the thick side will look pretty clean and the thin side will show little to moderate cutting. Both sides even is what you're looking for, using the THINNEST cases as your starting point.

Heed the advice of those who've pointed out, that if you cut too much, your die may not size the neck enough to secure the bullet. As mentioned, there are Custom dies with interchangeable bushings. These are designed for different manufactured brass. Remington is thicker than Winchester, etc. The bushings allow you to size properly for any neck thickness to get the right bullet tension. Such as hunting loads vs. bench rest.

I'd recommend a good precision loading manual---like Sinclairs. I also use their neck turner as well as primer seater.

TIP: Practice on old brass that you're not too fond of before you start in on your good cases.

Neck turning is only one step used in conjunction with others.

Pocket uniforming, flash hole deburring, and of course trimming. Before any of that, you'll, of course, weigh your cases and set aside those that are 1 to 1.5% plus or minus from the AVERAGE. (my standard). You will then have brass more consistent than used in factory ammo.

I've found that one step in itself, doesn't change accuracy, but all the steps combined can contribute to precision handloads. I'd recommend loading for precision accuracy if you enjoy the extra time spent. Otherwise, get some Nosler Custom Brass, or Lapua and just load 'em.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · January 7, 2009, 11:00 PM

Thanks for the info guys! I figured with the money I saved buying Remington brass instead of Lapua I could buy a neck turner, flash hole deburrer, and nice case trimmer....and produce very consistent brass...for all my rifle calibers. I know it is a little more work....well....a lot more work....but I enjoy it. Thanks again guys!!!

**Unclenick** · January 7, 2009, 11:41 PM

It may be. It depends what you are shooting? If it is high precision like benchrest or long range (600 to 1200 yard targets) you may have to do what I do with Winchester brass. Using the NECO case gauge (recommended), I cull any that have more than about 0.001" TIR (total indicated neck runout; in other words, how far the indicator needle swings back an forth in one revolution; it is the difference in thickness between sides). The other cases are usually fine for up to 300 yards unmodified and do better turned.

The reason for the extra sortng is that when a neck is thicker on one side than the other, so is the brass in the case wall behind it. The NECO gauge has a rigid anvil that extends back into the case down near the casehead to let the indicator read wall thickness back there. I find it typically has twice the TIR of the neck. This means the case will stretch unevenly under pressure and applies uneven thrust against the bolt face. One side of the casehead touches down on the bolt face first, creating a lateral bending moment. Merrill Martin was writing about this a decade ago (Precision Shooting Magazine) and referred to the cases thus afflicted as "banana shaped", owning to the way the uneven metal bends.

I expect the above is why Varmint Al, finding a case the neck turning cutter doesn't touch all the way around, tosses it into the reject pile. He doesn't try to fix them. You can't.

The last time I made a bulk purchase of Winchester brass for long range .308 loads I found one case with 0.008" TIR. That brass disk must have fallen into the drawing dies funny. I set it aside on the oddity shelf next to a pair of .223 cases I got in bulk that have no flashholes punched in them. IIRC they averaged around 0.0025" TIR.

The expensive European cases, Lapua and Norma, don't seem to give me any rejects. On that basis the Lapua are actually less expensive than Winchester since I don't have to cull any of them. The don't have burrs in the flashholes, either, and are already chamfered. Just overall dimensionally much tighter. If they just made them with the capacity of a Winchester .308 case, I would have switched.

Nnobby45 · January 7, 2009, 11:58 PM

Quote:

I know it is a little more work....well....a lot more work....but I enjoy it. Thanks again guys!!!

It's a lot more work. At least double the time--probably more. If you can get 1" groups using proper handloading techniques, you may cut that to 3/4" with precision handloading techniques. Getting that 1/4" smaller group takes a lot of work. But, as I said, you may enjoy doing it and I'd say good for you.

Ruger4570 · January 8, 2009, 12:26 AM

Many years ago I used to make 308 cases out of 30-06's, I even made some 243's too from 06 brass. I had to inside ream and neck turn to get rid of so much brass. I don't do that any more as the cheap 30-06 brass are history and I am just not into spending that much time making something i can buy for less. Today the only cases I form are for my 35-284 which needs NO work. I am just grateful there is enough brass "left" to grip a bullet with that much neck expansion.
I will say, at the time, in my youth, I enjoyed case forming and the associated labor.
I haven't really found a reason of late to turn the outsides of cases any longer.Nothing I shoot warrents that much extra work, at least to me.

January 6, 2009, 11:56 PM	#1
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	Neck turning help...please Hey guys...I just got my hands on some Remington Bulk .243 WIN brass (unfired, FL Sized). I am new to neck turning brass...but I do know the basics. Upon measuring the width of the brass at the neck with the tip of the mic, I am finding that the neck widths are all over the place (from .0155 to .013....many times on the same piece of brass!!). This is not normal is it???!!! As far as turning the necks, I understand that you are not suppose to necessarily turn the entire neck, but try to know down the "high spots". I set my neck turner to cut the neck to .013" and of course I am taking brass shavings off the entire cutting area. Is .013" to thin for the neck??? I would sure like to have consistent necks.....but I don't want to make them too thin. Thanks in advance guys!! ~~ICH~~ __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

January 7, 2009, 12:17 AM	#2
LHB1 Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,545	ICH, I (outside) turned the necks on my .25/06 brass to .012" and 7 Rem Mag brass to .013". Haven't had any problems with them BUT if you get the necks too thin/small, the factory sizing dies will not reduce the neck enough to hold bullets firmly. I didn't try my turned cases with factory dies but chose to buy bench rest dies with custom sized insert rings for the sizer and seater. These dies are used in a simple arbor press. The insert rings are available in increments of .001" so you can reduce the neck by about .003" when sizing and then allow .001" over total diameter of twice the neck thickness plus bullet diameter when seating. Hope this helps. __________________ Good shooting and be safe. LB

January 7, 2009, 09:12 AM	#4
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	LBH1...I will be using my lee collet neck sizer to resize after first firing....so I should have no problems resizing them at .013" neck wall thickness. Thanks guys!!! __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

January 7, 2009, 12:29 PM	#5
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Turn the necks until you get about 90% cleaned up around the circumference. I just neck turn my brass to uniform the neck thicknesses at .012". If you turn them until they are clean all the way arouns, you will reduce neck tension and cases will split after a few reloads unless you have a tight custom chamber. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

January 7, 2009, 06:27 PM	#6
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	Well, you seem to be getting good advice. My system for turning necks is to measure a few cases and take the one with the smallest thickness on one side, then adjust the cutter to just touch, but not cut that side. When you're done turning all your cases, the thick side will look pretty clean and the thin side will show little to moderate cutting. Both sides even is what you're looking for, using the THINNEST cases as your starting point. Heed the advice of those who've pointed out, that if you cut too much, your die may not size the neck enough to secure the bullet. As mentioned, there are Custom dies with interchangeable bushings. These are designed for different manufactured brass. Remington is thicker than Winchester, etc. The bushings allow you to size properly for any neck thickness to get the right bullet tension. Such as hunting loads vs. bench rest. I'd recommend a good precision loading manual---like Sinclairs. I also use their neck turner as well as primer seater. TIP: Practice on old brass that you're not too fond of before you start in on your good cases. Neck turning is only one step used in conjunction with others. Pocket uniforming, flash hole deburring, and of course trimming. Before any of that, you'll, of course, weigh your cases and set aside those that are 1 to 1.5% plus or minus from the AVERAGE. (my standard). You will then have brass more consistent than used in factory ammo. I've found that one step in itself, doesn't change accuracy, but all the steps combined can contribute to precision handloads. I'd recommend loading for precision accuracy if you enjoy the extra time spent. Otherwise, get some Nosler Custom Brass, or Lapua and just load 'em. Last edited by Nnobby45; January 7, 2009 at 11:53 PM.

January 7, 2009, 11:00 PM	#7
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	Thank you! Thanks for the info guys! I figured with the money I saved buying Remington brass instead of Lapua I could buy a neck turner, flash hole deburrer, and nice case trimmer....and produce very consistent brass...for all my rifle calibers. I know it is a little more work....well....a lot more work....but I enjoy it. Thanks again guys!!! __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

January 7, 2009, 11:41 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	It may be. It depends what you are shooting? If it is high precision like benchrest or long range (600 to 1200 yard targets) you may have to do what I do with Winchester brass. Using the NECO case gauge (recommended), I cull any that have more than about 0.001" TIR (total indicated neck runout; in other words, how far the indicator needle swings back an forth in one revolution; it is the difference in thickness between sides). The other cases are usually fine for up to 300 yards unmodified and do better turned. The reason for the extra sortng is that when a neck is thicker on one side than the other, so is the brass in the case wall behind it. The NECO gauge has a rigid anvil that extends back into the case down near the casehead to let the indicator read wall thickness back there. I find it typically has twice the TIR of the neck. This means the case will stretch unevenly under pressure and applies uneven thrust against the bolt face. One side of the casehead touches down on the bolt face first, creating a lateral bending moment. Merrill Martin was writing about this a decade ago (Precision Shooting Magazine) and referred to the cases thus afflicted as "banana shaped", owning to the way the uneven metal bends. I expect the above is why Varmint Al, finding a case the neck turning cutter doesn't touch all the way around, tosses it into the reject pile. He doesn't try to fix them. You can't. The last time I made a bulk purchase of Winchester brass for long range .308 loads I found one case with 0.008" TIR. That brass disk must have fallen into the drawing dies funny. I set it aside on the oddity shelf next to a pair of .223 cases I got in bulk that have no flashholes punched in them. IIRC they averaged around 0.0025" TIR. The expensive European cases, Lapua and Norma, don't seem to give me any rejects. On that basis the Lapua are actually less expensive than Winchester since I don't have to cull any of them. The don't have burrs in the flashholes, either, and are already chamfered. Just overall dimensionally much tighter. If they just made them with the capacity of a Winchester .308 case, I would have switched. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 8, 2009, 12:26 AM	#10
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	Many years ago I used to make 308 cases out of 30-06's, I even made some 243's too from 06 brass. I had to inside ream and neck turn to get rid of so much brass. I don't do that any more as the cheap 30-06 brass are history and I am just not into spending that much time making something i can buy for less. Today the only cases I form are for my 35-284 which needs NO work. I am just grateful there is enough brass "left" to grip a bullet with that much neck expansion. I will say, at the time, in my youth, I enjoyed case forming and the associated labor. I haven't really found a reason of late to turn the outsides of cases any longer.Nothing I shoot warrents that much extra work, at least to me.