German Luger - Engraved & Bakelite Grips

[Carmady]

If the pistol itself is all "numbers matching parts," that's good.

I strongly doubt if the grips, mags, or case are original to that Luger, or any other Luger for that matter. But I'm just a yahoo on the internet, so don't take my word for it.

[Patriot Arms]

They may not be original, I really don't have any documentation on the firearm, besides the pictures.

[Patriot Arms]

I have identified these magazines that were produced between 1940 - 1945.

[tarhealcracker]

My old "matching parts" Luger even had i magazine with a matched part#.

[Patriot Arms]

These magazines have a Backlite end on them and did not have serial numbers on the ends.

[highpower3006]

Not to be too OCD, but the material is called bakelite.

Now, onto your gun: Without any documentation, it is just an engraved wartime Luger. The case adds little or no value to it unless you can provide provenance to link the entire set to a (in)famous Nazi of some sort or can link it to a German engraver that was active only during the war. After the war there were a number of craftsmen that would trade work on guns for cigarettes or food to occupation GI's.


As to value, I personally would put it firmly in the shooter category and would expect it to fetch $1000-1200 on the open market.

[Patriot Arms]

Thanks for your response, highpower. Your response is the general consensus on this firearm. I do know it is Bakelite, just got to n a hurry earlier.

[44 AMP]

Thanks for the additional pictures, and yes, I agree, Mauser, 1942 production (the last year made)

There are 3 different "correct" Luger magazine bottoms, wood, aluminum, and "plastic" (bakelite). Someone who can find their reference books should be able to tell you which is correct for that gun "as issued" and not all models had the magazines numbered to the gun.

It seems that most of us think that the gun was not a factory made presentation piece during the Nazi era, but a standard service gun that someone later had engraved and added the Nazi Eagle grips and box.

We could all be wrong, it's rare, but it had happened...

TO my eye, and admittedly not expert, the Nazi Eagle grips and box disc look like cheezey reproductions compared to the actual presentation grips I have seen in pictures of documented presentation guns.

Now, as to it being a "shooter", and its value, that is a yes and no, thing. Generally speaking "shooter" grade Lugers are guns where slight additional wear, or parts replacement will not materially affect their market value.

Your gun is kind of in a grey area. It appears all matching and original (other than the grips) and in pretty good shape finish wise, and so would be one of the most valuable (in its class) to collectors. HOWEVER, the engraving, while fairly well done, without documentation, is likely to reduce the value to a "purist" collector. (Anything not verifiable as factory original usually does)

Can't give you any current value figure, sorry. You need to talk to the people who are into buying and selling Lugers currently. I have seen non-#matching Lugers with worn finishes and bores going for over $1000 in the last few years, so value on that one has to be at least that much, and likely more.

Around 15 years ago I picked up a refinished non-matching 1936 P.08 for $750 (reasonable market value at the time), the story that came with the gun (there were no papers) was that it had been refinished "during the war". I rather doubt it, but there was no way to be sure, and the job was very well done. Definitely good work done by professionals. Had the gun been in that quality condition with a verifiable original finish, and matching #s, the value back then would have been $2200.

Luger prices travel in bubbles, they seem to rise rapidly, for a bit, then level off for a while, then rise again. Specific individual guns that I recognized having seen at gun shows over the years, ones I didn't buy when the asking price was $1500, are still on the dealer's tables, with $2000 price tags as of last year...

Hope this helps some, I know its not a lot. Good Luck, and If you're looking to purchase that one, I wouldn't pay a premium because it was a "presentation piece", but I would pay solid "shooter value", (if I knew what that was, today). Most people who get an all matching gun don't shoot it, not wanting to risk lowering the value. Not sure if that really applies to the one you're looking at, due to the apparently post production engraving.

Good Luck!

[briandg]

once at a gun show almost forty years ago, I stopped at a table where a guy was carefully and beautifully engraving the receiver of a smith sxs. Somewhere, maybe even at this minute, someone is wondering about that shotgun and asking similar questions.

[armoredman]

I have absolutely no expertise in this field whatsoever but that looks like a beautiful sidearm. My only problem is I was raised by a WWII Europe campaign vet and hate the Nazi Swastika and all it represents, but even I'd be tempted to give that one a home.

[Patriot Arms]

44 AMP,

Thanks for the response and thoughts on this firearm. I appreciate all of your time and insight on this request.

[Jim Watson]

I have seen those grips somewhere before. I do not think they were factory items and if you were making up something nice for Herr General, wouldn't you use something better than Bakelite? There are walnut grips with inlaid Nazi eagles, some authentic, some not.

[briandg]

There is a thought to share here about the bakelite, it's not in general production, it can't really be faked now. You either have to create a pressure molding system and dies for each side, or find a slab of bakelite in black and cut the things out. It might be real, original bakelite that was engraved with the design. I haven't looked at it just now, I believe that when i saw it before, the design was just incised into what seemed like normal luger grips. No, this still doesn't answer anything. It could have been done a century ago with genuine parts when the thing was engraved, if it was engraved then. It's also possible that they were original, or even reproduction bakelite that were engraved.

And all of this is based on the assumption that it is actually bakelite in the first place. To confirm it almost absolutely therre are a bunch of simpe tests. Heat releases a bit of formalin, it stinks.It's denser than most other plastics. it doesnt ring or click if you thunk the pieces together, it just goes 'thunk'. I think that the simplest way of testing is to get 409 or simichrome, you probably have one or the other anyway. dab some on the back and rub briskly, and the cloth you are using will stain either brown or yellow.

an antiques dealer, a true student of old stuff would be able to date the thing and check for authenticity to a certain extent just by examination of the pieces. You can have a museum grade painting tested and even experts can screw up just looking at it and trying to find signature marks like brushstrokes. The true proof is found sometimes just by looking at the paint or ink and realizing that the paint is made with the wrong oils or pigments for the period. You don't have to be an expert to see if a not so great worker has faked something, The mona lisa was painted on a board, right? If you see a200 year old painting that was done on plywood, it isn't real. Ditto if the paint was made from ochre that came from zambizi, english coast, or even colorado. Look at the things with a critical eye and look for things that don't seem right,

I once found a vase that the guy claimed was genuine tiffany, wanted a reasonable price for it, and uh uh. The proportions were off, the iridizing was a bit off, etc. A guy told me that his windows were made by tiffany and shipped across country to here. Sure, the windows were old, the glass was good, it all looked fine, but the skill wasn't there, the glass was wrong, and above all else, tiffany didn't use plain window glass for dlear portions, even his clear glass was hand rolled and pretty distinctive. no matter how nice that 'mansion' is, it was built by a guy who ran a big brewery in an ordinary mining hub, not the guy who owned a bank in st louis or chicago.

[44 AMP]

if you were making up something nice for Herr General, wouldn't you use something better than Bakelite?

Many, perhaps most of the engraved presentation guns went to Nazi party officials. Pistols and daggers were part of the full dress uniform, and most of the time, pistols were part of the daily wear uniform as well. Not just for the military, but Gauleiters, Mayors, party officers, nearly everyone down to the dog catcher, it seems.

Somewhere I have pics of a very lovely Nazi engraved PP or PPK, and the grips have eagles, and are ivory.

Fakes and forgeries exist in all fields where there are valuable and scarce items. However, there is a difference between a fake and something done because a previous owner wanted it that way.

I could do up a "perfect" copy of a Ming dynasty vase, but if I don't represent it as an original, I'm not faking anything. The Luger in question as far as I know isn't being claimed to be anything more than engraved Luger with a presentation style case.