Colt series 80 vs 70

[L. Boscoe]

I know the difference between these pistols, the question: if they don't make the 70's anymore, how difficult is it to
get a real bullseye quality trigger in an 80?

[Aguila Blanca]

Last I knew, Colt still sold a pistol called the Series 70, and it does (did) not have the firing pin safety. Looks like they now call it the "Classic."
https://www.colt.com/detail-page/191...assic-ss-45acp

To answer your question: what do you consider a "real bullseye quality trigger"? The Series 80 firing pin safety imposes no additional movement or slop in the mechanism. I don't shoot bullseye competition, so I don't aim for a sub-2-pound trigger but I have NO difficulty getting extremely clean breaks at 4-1/2 pounds -- which is as low as I want to go in a carry pistol.

I could easily reduce the pull weight down to 2 pounds or below, but that's too light for self-defense. And at some point you encounter the problem of sear bounce and doubling -- which applies as much to Series 70 mechanisms as it does to series 80.

Colt also still sells a Gold Cup, which is ready for competition and is, I believe, also a Series 70 mechanism.

[44 AMP]

If I understand correctly, the difference between the Series 70 and earlier pistols is the collet type bushing, which was not well liked because it could and sometimes did break, jamming the gun.

The series 80 introduced the firing pin block (lock?) that prevented the firing pin from moving without the trigger being pulled.

I don't have any personal experience tuning a series 80, but a good smith should be able to do it, though there will be more involved than on earlier model guns.

[L. Boscoe]

thanks guys- I did not know about the "classic" My concern was that the 80 supposedly has a long take-up before getting to
the "wall". FYI, 2.5# is the lowest I would shoot a centerfire due
to danger of doubling. 22's 2# is ok. NRA competition for 45 is 3.5# min.

[jcj54]

There are kits that replace the spring and levers for the firing pin block with new ones that improve the geometry for less and smoother take up that improve the trigger greatly.
A good 1911 smith can give you great results.
The series 70 collet bushing is a thing of the past.

[4V50 Gary]

The Series 80 incorporated a firing pin block safety which required the block that intercepted the firing pin, a spring, upper & lower safety levers. A good smith can smooth it out, but more parts means more to work on. It was not well received by the public.

Sidenote: Colt also made an Ace Conversion Kit for the Series 80.

[Sharkbite]

Ive yet to see a series 80 gun with what i would consider a good, much less great, trigger. Moving all that linkage and plunger/spring with the trigger just yucks it up.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by jcj54

There are kits that replace the spring andlevers for the firing pin block that imprive the geometry for less and smoother take up that improve the trigger greatly.
A good 1911 smith can give you great results.

I have installed that spacer in a few Series 80 frames so they could be used with Series 70 (non-firing pin block, not referring to the collet-style barrel bushing) slides. All the "kit" is is a spacer/shim that replaces the two levers. It has ZERO effect on the geometry of the trigger-hammer-sear interaction. The geometry remains unchanged.

Originally Posted by 4V50 Gary

It was not well received by the public.

Aux contraire. It has been VERY well-received by the public -- so much so that the vast majority of mass manufactured 1911s today have a firing pin safety and, with the exception of Kimber and S&W, they're all the Colt Series 80 type.

Yes, back when the Series 80 system was first introduced there was wide-spread paranoia that it would make the trigger pull heavy, gritty, and impossible to clean up. Those fears were long ago proven to be groundless. I carry 1911s, and my carry pistols have the Series 80 firing pin block. Trigger pulls are all between 4-1/2 and 5 pounds (because that's where I set them), and VERY clean.

[jcj54]

The kit I am referring to replaces the factory levers with new levers with improved geometry.
I was not referring to the series 80 delete kits on the market.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Aux contraire. It has been VERY well-received by the public -- so much so that the vast majority of mass manufactured 1911s today have a firing pin safety and, with the exception of Kimber and S&W, they're all the Colt Series 80 type.

My Springfield Armory does not have a firing pin block. My Staccatos do not have a firing pin block. The Dan Wessons I was looking at recently do not have a firing pin block. Granted these are just personal examples, but in looking around online at what is offered I don’t see evidence that the vast majority of 1911s in 2024 do in fact have a firing pin safety. We would need a breakdown of every model from every manufacturer to decide that definitively, and sales data to go with it. I will caveat all of this by saying I am not opposed to a firing pin block.

[Jim Watson]

Right, and none of the "reasonably priced" Turkish and Filipino imports have firing pin obstructions.

The companies best known for firing pin blocks seem to have trouble making up their minds. Colt is putting out several "series 70" models.
There are Kimbers, Smiths, and Sigs without firing pin blocks.
Caspian will sell you a series 80 slide, but you will have to put it on a Colt receiver, they do not offer the cuts on the frame.

Me?
I have an OACP with S80 intact, for the felon, cop, DA sequence.
I have a GM with S80 delete, it is a "range gun" with trigger travel too short to actuate the lawyer levers.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Caspian will sell you a series 80 slide, but you will have to put it on a Colt receiver, they do not offer the cuts on the frame.

They've removed that option? I haven't bought a Caspian frame for several years, but the Series 80 cuts were an option the last time I checked.

[Skans]

Originally Posted by L. Boscoe

thanks guys- I did not know about the "classic" My concern was that the 80 supposedly has a long take-up before getting to
the "wall". FYI, 2.5# is the lowest I would shoot a centerfire due
to danger of doubling. 22's 2# is ok. NRA competition for 45 is 3.5# min.

I have a 99% Colt Series 70 Gold Cup made in 1974 and a 99% Colt Series 80 Gold Cup made in the late '80's or early '90's. Both triggers are excellent, and honestly, I've tried to discern the difference from one gun to the other and I can't tell the difference. I've heard Series 70 enthusiasts swear they can tell the difference. Sure, I suppose there is some neurosurgeon out there that can feel the difference, but I remain skeptical.

[Shadow9mm]

I believe the Ruger 1911 uses the 70 series design with a light weight firing pin. They also cast the safety detent housing into the frame instead of staking it on so it can never come loose.

[243winxb]

The 1970s Gold Cups with the prefix 70Nxxxxx are the better guns for top accuracy right out of the box for Bullseye/Precision pistol.

The 80 series produced poor accuracy, as it came from the factory. The trigger just made it worse. Removing the firing pin plunger, did not help. I did return the series 80 to the Colt factory. It had excess headspace, long chamber. It came back as same bad accuracy gun.

The NRA rule books are free, online.

Minium/lowest Trigger pull weight is 3 1/2 pounds for a 1911 type.

.45 Caiber Precision Pistol matches.
Any .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol or revolver; barrel length,
including cylinders, not more than 10 inches, trigger pull for re-
volvers not less than 2 1/2 pounds, .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol
trigger pull not less than 3 1/2 pounds.

I competed in Bullseye competition in the 1970s

[rock185]

My 2 1/2¢ worth on 80 vs. 70. I've owned and carried both S70 and S80 Colts. Factory trigger pull specs did not change between S70 and S80 guns. I know that a clean, safe 3 1/2# trigger can be accomplished on a S80 Colt with all S80 firing pin safety components intact. I was an O-Frame armorer, carried a S80 Colt for several years, and never experienced or saw unmodified S80 Colt FPS components cause an issue. I bought a new S80 Government model soon after they were introduced just to confirm how bad the S80 system must be. Wrong! That early S80 Colt was nicely fitted and finished, as accurate and reliable as my S70 guns, and if I hadn't known, I would not have been able to tell there was a FPS in the gun.

I am aware that people have installed triggers with trigger stops on S80 Colts and created issues, just not understanding what they are doing. Best one was a shooter who filed down the S80 FPS plunger lever on his new S80 Colt to give it a "trigger job". Well of course, his new Colt would do everything except actually fire a round. Wonder if he alerted the world about how bad the S80 Colts were

[Drm50]

I’ve not fooled with series 80 pistols. I have had several that I ended up with on trades.
The series 70 finger bushings have been known to break. If I was going to carry an original series 70 I would install a standard bushing. However the series 80 safety doesn’t bother me. It’s just the indicator of the decrease in fit & finish of the Colt 1911. The series 70 MK IV is new as I will go buying. I’d rather have pre 70 commercial models to shoot.

[RickB]

In the '80s, it was correctly reported that it's harder to get a first-rate trigger with Series 80, due to the slight additional friction, and the four ounces of pressure required to compress the S80 plunger spring.
Gunsmiths soon adapted, but the narrative somehow changed from "harder to get an excellent trigger", to "S80 triggers are terrible (they're not)", or, "You can't get a good S80 trigger".
I have a few S80 guns, and I've gone to the trouble of doing back-to-back testing with the S80 bits intact, and with them removed, and while I left the S80 bits out of one gun after testing, I left them in another one; if the parts are correctly fitted and timed, it's a non-issue.

[Skans]

I always find it interesting when 1911 fans go into a big analysis about the Series 80 trigger vs. the Series 70. Some will go into an explanation of "extra parts, more chances to fail" etc.

Yet, they overlook the big ugly elephant in the room - the useless, worthless, extra safety added to the 1911's which sits in the web of your hands as you are operating the pistol! The history of why the grip-safety was added is even more ridiculous than the history of the forward-assist on an AR. Yet, its still there. An extra, mechanical safety that can make the gun inoperable.

For those of you who want to argue that it is a good feature - it's not! If it was, it would have been incorporated into the Browning Hi-Powers, the CZ 75B, Glocks, etc.

[Jim Watson]

it (grip safety) would have been incorporated into the Browning Hi-Powers, the CZ 75B, Glocks, etc

if the customer specified it. Which they didn't.

But if you just must, there are racegun builders who offer guns with "beavertails" with no safety function.
If Novak would license 'The Answer' to a well known manufacturer like Wilson, I am sure they would sell a barge load of guns so equipped. But then Arminex didn't last and Rescomp never really tried.

Whenever the subject of the Nasty Grip Safety comes up, I wonder why we have not seen a dressed up Star or Ballester Molina. No grip safety but a prominent solid frame beavertail. A positive thumb safety, the BM even takes Colt barrel and magazine, I figure for common spares with their 1927 Sistemas. I once saw a picture of a target Star Model A with pronounced pinkie hook on the front strap toe, said to have a 2 lb trigger pull, so that should be approachable on others. What else, high profile or adjustable sights, probably.
The Star Supers are interesting with cam track lockup instead of link but be aware they come with magazine disconnects.

[wild cat mccane]

When not cheating on his wife, garanda thumb had both the Night Hawk and Staccatos whatever silly name fire when dropped.

Chance of dropping a gun vs decades of anyone not proving the safety hurt non custom guns...

[Aguila Blanca]

For a very long time (in Internet terms), the "definitive" resource about 1911s firing when dropped was a test report on (IIRC) The Sight web site. The tester didn't drop a complete 1911 -- he taped a barrel into a slide and dropped that loaded assembly down a length of plumbing pipe, and concluded that a 1911 would not fire if dropped on its muzzle.

A good many years later a gentleman named Walt Kuleck and a gunsmith named rake Oldham decided to revisit that experiment. But they used a complete firearm. After many drops, they showed conclusively that a 1911 WILL fire if dropped on its muzzle -- from heights as low as three feet.

Since I respect Walk Kuleck and I trust his objectivity, when I read his report I made the decision to take ALL non-Series 80 1911s out of carry rotation. I'll still enjoy owning them and using them at the range, but I will only carry 1911s with a firing pin safety.

[Jim Watson]

I dropped a 1911 from head height on a linoleum over wood floor, repeated tries to get it to land in orientations of interest. The primed case came out with a slight mark, about like what you see when unloading an AR.

Ol' Walt's concrete floor must have been a lot more demanding.

[wild cat mccane]

The beauty of numbers. It doesnt matter if you can replicate. Garand Thumb didnt have obvious trickery and both 70 series he used werent custom guns.

I havent heard once a complete arguement that non custom 70 series were better triggered than an 80. Plus, you are going to drop a gun...eventually. Or you will and it wont fire...but those are two events of chance. I would take the safety by design given no single arguement of worse.

[RickB]

I spent some hours with a 'smith who, when he was pistolsmithing editor for American Handgunner magazine, pursued drop-testing of a 1911 (he wanted it to be a "scientific" test, so he asked his dentist neighbor, closest thing to a scientist available, to observe), and no matter how the gun was oriented when dropped, he could never get it to land on the muzzle, so decided the whole thing was a theoretical issue.