Reloads, Suppressors,and Cronos'

number 9 · February 7, 2013, 12:01 PM

I have a question that relates to all three as a whole.

Background: Own a home and small parcial, under 3 acres of land in a county that has no ordinance against firing a weapon peacefully. However I have been visited by the local sheriff department saying they had a complaint called in. Long story short he explained to me it was not a firearms issue it was a noise issue.

My question is this, suppressors are legal to own with the proper paperwork, background check, and so on. However I crono most all my loads and am concerned how the suppressor will affect the crono readings especially repeat ability. I realize there is no such animal as absolute when dealing with projectiles, powders, environmental conditions etc. Although I would like to have some type conversion factor from supressed to unsuppressed. the information to me is most valuable when changing from 200 yard zero to 600 yard zero as well as within projectiles of different weight and bc. Would it be worth the expense, effort, time and paperwork to obtain this option?
To add a last tidbit the site was viewed by the Deputy at my request and although he did not officially put his stamp of approval on it he agreed I had taken steps to prevent a projectile from leaving my property.

Nathan · February 7, 2013, 01:55 PM

What is the decibel requirement and where is it measured?

I would suggest you get to know this law well. I'll bet it is a typical noise ordnance which is non-specific. ....we'll say.

In that case it is best to inform the neighbor that you don't like having the law called on you.

You could get a suppressor, but for all your guns? Also, how would you prove you were using it when the law was called again?

number 9 · February 7, 2013, 05:05 PM

It is an unfortunate situation for sure. The law enforcement has no choice but to make an appearance and they will not release who made the complaint so there is no way to rectify because you don't know who to contact.

This is the reason I am thinking of going the suppressor route. I can get a multi cal centerfire that will cover most of the long guns, I just don't want the added expense of the pistol cals.

I'm just not sure how much the data from a suppressed long gun can be used for defining muzzle velocity when working up mid to longer range loads.

Leonard

**Unclenick** · February 7, 2013, 05:47 PM

May not help as much as you think with the long guns. Depends where the complaint is coming from. High power rifle bullets are supersonic and produce a mini sonic boom. If you sit in the pits at a shooting range you find the noise from the bullets going overhead and into the paper is about as loud as shooting a .22 rimfire handgun. You need hearing protection in the pits, even at 600 yards, where the muzzle blast is a small noise by comparison. This is something TV script writers are unaware of. If a .22 Pistol garners complaints from your neighbor, a suppressed HP rifle won't likely do any better.

If there's a fixed decibel limit, that's the ticket. A sound level meter can be had at Radio Shack. There also may be a time of day feature to the ordnance.

I would go around to the neighbors and introduce yourself and ask if they mind the sound you shooting during daylight hours and maybe offer not to do it on Sundays. If someone objects, you may be able to put up a wall next to your firing point that blocks most of the sound in their direction. Shoot away from that neighbor's direction to prevent anything but the echo of the sonic crack from reaching him.

Otherwise, you're in for a suppressor and sub-sonic loads, or a covered and walled-in firing point with sound dampening wall surfaces combined with sub-sonic loads.

allaroundhunter · February 7, 2013, 05:56 PM

Yup, suppressors are will not quiet the shot as much as you are thinking. The supersonic "crack" of the bullet will still be easily heard 3 acres away.

To answer one of your questions, the suppressor will not slow the bullet down, in many instances, it will increase the velocity slightly. POI will not change much, especially within 100 yards.

However, to get the shot quiet, you would need to use subsonic ammunition. This will have a larger POI difference compared to your current zero, and a huge difference out at extended ranges.

Here is a video that will show you the differences between super and subsonic ammo through a suppressor. You can hear the supersonic "crack" echo for the first two shots, and then with the subsonic ammo it is much quieter.

jmorris · February 7, 2013, 06:08 PM

If you only own 3 acres how do you have a 200 yd range setup?

As for a "conversion chart" from suppressed to unsuppressed it depends on to many factors. I generally use my suppressed guns with the suppressor always on them because POI is effected more by having a pound of steel and variables that a suppressor bring into play far more than any velocity difference between the two.

A way that will work for all of your guns would be to construct a shed and shoot through a section of PVC through wall to your target. It will be loud as heck in the building but fine outside.

The SPL meter from RadioShack is a great idea, if you can get away with it. They don't have a fast enough sample rate to properly register gunshots, so even unsuppressed it would look like your OK.

jmorris · February 7, 2013, 06:10 PM

I'll add this, with my backyard range bullets striking steel makes a lot more noise that the firing of a super sonic bullet through a good suppressor.

Lost Sheep · February 7, 2013, 06:17 PM

Unclenick beat me to the suggestion that you go around to your neighbors, apologize for the noise and make arrangements satisfactory to both of you. Good neighbors regularly do this with leaf blowers, fireworks, parties and such, so it is not a firearms issue, hopefully. Bring cookies. Invite them to shoot with you.

A really neat and cheap silencer/sound suppressor can be made with 6 or 10 worn-out tires. Line them up in a rack similar to what you find in tire stores (make it out of 2x4s, cheap) lined up with the target. Shoot downrange with your muzzle as deep into the row of tires as possible. The sidewalls of the tires make nice sound-absorbing baffles.

Punch holes in the bottoms of the treads so rainwater will drain out.

This will reduce the un-neighborliness of muzzle blast to (hopefully) an acceptable level. It will (unfortunately) not do anything to reduce the sonic boom of supersonic bullets.

Lost Sheep

number 9 · February 7, 2013, 06:44 PM

Thanks for the replies, I'll try to address some of them. Yes I understand it would be mathematically impossible to have a 200 yard range on 3 acres unless it was an alley. I said I owned three acres. Also I said going from a 200 yard zero, not that I had a 200 yard range. There is a range that I pay dues to that goes out to 600 although it is impractical as well as cost prohibitive to use this for load development.

The tire trick may well help. Also to my knowledge most of the neighbors are not the issue. Think one flea on a dog.

Most major landowners are reluctant to grant use of their farmland around here because of liability issues and users trashing their property.

Also to my knowledge state and federal owned lands are not available for target shooting purposes.

I do the majority of shooting when I travel to the gun range but would like to do the crono work here where I can build a few loads at a time.

Subsonics and a suppressor may be just the ticket for increased trigger time though.

Thanks to all for suggestions, looks like it just is what it is.

jmorris · February 7, 2013, 07:11 PM

If you are just wanting theoretical you could do the load work up on and number of ballistic programs after shooting and chronograph just one round to get the velocity.

number 9 · February 7, 2013, 07:40 PM

Thanks for the reply jmorris. I use the sierra ballistics computer program. In theory I try to Taylor each different projectile to land at 600 with the same point of aim change. I load up or down to attempt to go from 200 to 600 with 60 one quarter inch clicks @ 2550 m/v. This has worked well with my lr308 and I have a new Savage bolt ordered.

I did have a revelation of one sort or another. I own a 16 foot covered construction trailer with a fold down door. This could be positioned where I could safely shoot toward my setup from within the covered trailer also the blast will be directed away from any neighbors. Shooting could be from prone or seated and the tire rack system could be utilized. This would definitely stress test the hearing protection system, I could get my numbers un molested, compare directly between the bolt gun and the lr308, and save a ton of money and wait time. The inside noise may be too harsh but I won't know until I try.

Thanks to all for their input.

Brian Pfleuger · February 7, 2013, 07:55 PM

That could work and, yes, it will be loud. I've done similar, shooting from inside a garage. Definitely a double-protection (plugs and muffs) situation. Take care to ensure that unknown and unsuspecting persons can not suddenly walk in front of the trailer without your knowledge.

allaroundhunter · February 7, 2013, 10:01 PM

Quote:

This would definitely stress test the hearing protection system, I could get my numbers un molested, compare directly between the bolt gun and the lr308, and save a ton of money and wait time. The inside noise may be too harsh but I won't know until I try.

As Brian said, double up for sure. If you have some spare tires, placing them on the outside of the trailer and you would be pretty good off (I would think).

jmorris · February 7, 2013, 11:15 PM

Wouldn't be any worse than shooting inside a shoot house. Custom fit plugs and muffs should work.

Lights for the trailer can be an issue for the chronograph, I have used a right angle incandescent flashlight with success. To stabilize the trailer put ridged stands at both sides of the rear and jack up the front to take the load off the compliant tires.

February 7, 2013, 12:01 PM	#1
number 9 Member Join Date: February 6, 2013 Posts: 40	Reloads, Suppressors,and Cronos' I have a question that relates to all three as a whole. Background: Own a home and small parcial, under 3 acres of land in a county that has no ordinance against firing a weapon peacefully. However I have been visited by the local sheriff department saying they had a complaint called in. Long story short he explained to me it was not a firearms issue it was a noise issue. My question is this, suppressors are legal to own with the proper paperwork, background check, and so on. However I crono most all my loads and am concerned how the suppressor will affect the crono readings especially repeat ability. I realize there is no such animal as absolute when dealing with projectiles, powders, environmental conditions etc. Although I would like to have some type conversion factor from supressed to unsuppressed. the information to me is most valuable when changing from 200 yard zero to 600 yard zero as well as within projectiles of different weight and bc. Would it be worth the expense, effort, time and paperwork to obtain this option? To add a last tidbit the site was viewed by the Deputy at my request and although he did not officially put his stamp of approval on it he agreed I had taken steps to prevent a projectile from leaving my property.

February 7, 2013, 05:47 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	May not help as much as you think with the long guns. Depends where the complaint is coming from. High power rifle bullets are supersonic and produce a mini sonic boom. If you sit in the pits at a shooting range you find the noise from the bullets going overhead and into the paper is about as loud as shooting a .22 rimfire handgun. You need hearing protection in the pits, even at 600 yards, where the muzzle blast is a small noise by comparison. This is something TV script writers are unaware of. If a .22 Pistol garners complaints from your neighbor, a suppressed HP rifle won't likely do any better. If there's a fixed decibel limit, that's the ticket. A sound level meter can be had at Radio Shack. There also may be a time of day feature to the ordnance. I would go around to the neighbors and introduce yourself and ask if they mind the sound you shooting during daylight hours and maybe offer not to do it on Sundays. If someone objects, you may be able to put up a wall next to your firing point that blocks most of the sound in their direction. Shoot away from that neighbor's direction to prevent anything but the echo of the sonic crack from reaching him. Otherwise, you're in for a suppressor and sub-sonic loads, or a covered and walled-in firing point with sound dampening wall surfaces combined with sub-sonic loads. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; February 7, 2013 at 05:57 PM.

February 7, 2013, 05:56 PM	#5
allaroundhunter Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2012 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 1,670	Yup, suppressors are will not quiet the shot as much as you are thinking. The supersonic "crack" of the bullet will still be easily heard 3 acres away. To answer one of your questions, the suppressor will not slow the bullet down, in many instances, it will increase the velocity slightly. POI will not change much, especially within 100 yards. However, to get the shot quiet, you would need to use subsonic ammunition. This will have a larger POI difference compared to your current zero, and a huge difference out at extended ranges. Here is a video that will show you the differences between super and subsonic ammo through a suppressor. You can hear the supersonic "crack" echo for the first two shots, and then with the subsonic ammo it is much quieter. Last edited by allaroundhunter; February 7, 2013 at 06:01 PM.

February 7, 2013, 06:17 PM	#8
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	Silencer not requiring a stamp Unclenick beat me to the suggestion that you go around to your neighbors, apologize for the noise and make arrangements satisfactory to both of you. Good neighbors regularly do this with leaf blowers, fireworks, parties and such, so it is not a firearms issue, hopefully. Bring cookies. Invite them to shoot with you. A really neat and cheap silencer/sound suppressor can be made with 6 or 10 worn-out tires. Line them up in a rack similar to what you find in tire stores (make it out of 2x4s, cheap) lined up with the target. Shoot downrange with your muzzle as deep into the row of tires as possible. The sidewalls of the tires make nice sound-absorbing baffles. Punch holes in the bottoms of the treads so rainwater will drain out. This will reduce the un-neighborliness of muzzle blast to (hopefully) an acceptable level. It will (unfortunately) not do anything to reduce the sonic boom of supersonic bullets. Lost Sheep

February 7, 2013, 07:40 PM	#11
number 9 Member Join Date: February 6, 2013 Posts: 40	The ringing of the ears. Thanks for the reply jmorris. I use the sierra ballistics computer program. In theory I try to Taylor each different projectile to land at 600 with the same point of aim change. I load up or down to attempt to go from 200 to 600 with 60 one quarter inch clicks @ 2550 m/v. This has worked well with my lr308 and I have a new Savage bolt ordered. I did have a revelation of one sort or another. I own a 16 foot covered construction trailer with a fold down door. This could be positioned where I could safely shoot toward my setup from within the covered trailer also the blast will be directed away from any neighbors. Shooting could be from prone or seated and the tire rack system could be utilized. This would definitely stress test the hearing protection system, I could get my numbers un molested, compare directly between the bolt gun and the lr308, and save a ton of money and wait time. The inside noise may be too harsh but I won't know until I try. Thanks to all for their input. Last edited by number 9; February 7, 2013 at 07:47 PM.

February 7, 2013, 01:55 PM	#2
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	What is the decibel requirement and where is it measured? I would suggest you get to know this law well. I'll bet it is a typical noise ordnance which is non-specific. ....we'll say. In that case it is best to inform the neighbor that you don't like having the law called on you. You could get a suppressor, but for all your guns? Also, how would you prove you were using it when the law was called again?

February 7, 2013, 05:05 PM	#3
number 9 Member Join Date: February 6, 2013 Posts: 40	It is an unfortunate situation for sure. The law enforcement has no choice but to make an appearance and they will not release who made the complaint so there is no way to rectify because you don't know who to contact. This is the reason I am thinking of going the suppressor route. I can get a multi cal centerfire that will cover most of the long guns, I just don't want the added expense of the pistol cals. I'm just not sure how much the data from a suppressed long gun can be used for defining muzzle velocity when working up mid to longer range loads. Leonard

February 7, 2013, 06:08 PM	#6
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	If you only own 3 acres how do you have a 200 yd range setup? As for a "conversion chart" from suppressed to unsuppressed it depends on to many factors. I generally use my suppressed guns with the suppressor always on them because POI is effected more by having a pound of steel and variables that a suppressor bring into play far more than any velocity difference between the two. A way that will work for all of your guns would be to construct a shed and shoot through a section of PVC through wall to your target. It will be loud as heck in the building but fine outside. The SPL meter from RadioShack is a great idea, if you can get away with it. They don't have a fast enough sample rate to properly register gunshots, so even unsuppressed it would look like your OK.

February 7, 2013, 06:10 PM	#7
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	I'll add this, with my backyard range bullets striking steel makes a lot more noise that the firing of a super sonic bullet through a good suppressor.

February 7, 2013, 06:44 PM	#9
number 9 Member Join Date: February 6, 2013 Posts: 40	Thanks for the replies, I'll try to address some of them. Yes I understand it would be mathematically impossible to have a 200 yard range on 3 acres unless it was an alley. I said I owned three acres. Also I said going from a 200 yard zero, not that I had a 200 yard range. There is a range that I pay dues to that goes out to 600 although it is impractical as well as cost prohibitive to use this for load development. The tire trick may well help. Also to my knowledge most of the neighbors are not the issue. Think one flea on a dog. Most major landowners are reluctant to grant use of their farmland around here because of liability issues and users trashing their property. Also to my knowledge state and federal owned lands are not available for target shooting purposes. I do the majority of shooting when I travel to the gun range but would like to do the crono work here where I can build a few loads at a time. Subsonics and a suppressor may be just the ticket for increased trigger time though. Thanks to all for suggestions, looks like it just is what it is.

February 7, 2013, 07:11 PM	#10
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	If you are just wanting theoretical you could do the load work up on and number of ballistic programs after shooting and chronograph just one round to get the velocity.

February 7, 2013, 07:55 PM	#12
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	That could work and, yes, it will be loud. I've done similar, shooting from inside a garage. Definitely a double-protection (plugs and muffs) situation. Take care to ensure that unknown and unsuspecting persons can not suddenly walk in front of the trailer without your knowledge. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 7, 2013, 11:15 PM	#14
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	Wouldn't be any worse than shooting inside a shoot house. Custom fit plugs and muffs should work. Lights for the trailer can be an issue for the chronograph, I have used a right angle incandescent flashlight with success. To stabilize the trailer put ridged stands at both sides of the rear and jack up the front to take the load off the compliant tires.