Civil War Then & Now:

[Hawg]

Looks like he took both barrels of a ten gauge.

[WillyKern69]

Great photos.

[bushmaster65]

I agree with Hawg about the first picture that has now been blown up. That thump to the forehead clearly shows an entrance wound, possibly two. The rest of the shrapnel wounds are as he pointed out as well.
These other pics are fascinating. I really wish they didn't touch the bodies as they did back then though. In a couple of the wider shots you could almost imagine some assistant with an armful of muskets placing them here and there.
One thing I've been seeing is some of the dead having their waistline exposed. Such as shirt pulled up and pants sometimes unbuttoned. When I saw the large pic of the soldier in the mud with his pockets turned inside out i wondered if some of these soldiers used money belts and that's why their shirts are pulled up? the other pics show obvious signs of looting for supplies, why not take their money too? Ever seen a reference to how soldiers handled their pay?
You have a helluva lineage there. Being in the genealogical tree with the youngers. I presume your family has a well documented tree? Man that must be a read huh? As for that pistol he had, I've never heard of those. Looks like it was made during the conversion era from BP to cartridge?

[10851Man]

Glad you enjoyed the photos. I will post more as I can. I appreciate your forensic analysis of these images.

On the Bill Chadwell heart shot, to my eye that looks like an exit wound. Your thoughts????

[bushmaster65]

When I look at this pic i see the obvious hole in his upper L chest but the rush job in cleaning all of the blood off of him. I thought for a minute it might have been lividity but then i noticed the swipe marks from cleaning.
The wound is above the heart (notice the nipple line) and appears to be right on the border of the breast plate.
Not knowing what made the wound but assuming a med to large cal firearm, not being able to view his back etc, I would say this was an entrance wound because:
This area of the chest is dense with lung tissue and most importantly, all of the ascending blood vessels such as aorta and superior vena cava. You rip one of those either from direct contact or over pressurization from the bullet tract and you are a goner. Then you have the rib cage, spinal column, and breast plate. Not that it isn't beyond reason, I just think there would be much more debris and tissue pulled to an exit wound, causing a "bulge" or a blow out where the debris exited the wound.
The edges of this wound are clean. no surrounding deformity. If he fell and died on his face, that could explain the blood all over the front of him.
To be honest, I am suspicious of the nice neat blood trail from the wound after all the other blood was cleaned up.
could this have been staged? Also, I cant tell what that is at the bottom of the hole were the blood starts. smudge mark? Photographer will know that you cant tell the difference between black ink and blood in his pic..
Yes I am a pessimist
If you look at the "doolin" photo, you can see what happens when you bleed out and it is contained within the body. He has a gross deformity to his right side, around the area of the scapula. I've seen that before and its blood held in side the body. He most likely died face up.
Id like to hear your thoughts on the soldier you think might have suffocated.
so tag, you're it!

[Hawg]

I too think the Chadwell shot is an entrance woiund. As for the other one I don't think there's enough info in the pic to tell what he died from.

[B.L.E.]

In the silent movie days, chocolate syrup was reportedly used as stage blood because it photographed more realistically with the blue spectrum sensitive black and white film of those days.
Villains actually wore red capes and hats because it photographed blacker than actual black material.
That's why blood in civil war photos looks ink black and why the reddish skin tone of Caucasians photographed nearly as dark as the brown skin of Indians and Africans.

[4V50 Gary]

Shirts were pulled up by soldiers to examine their wounds. Belly shots were considered unsurvivable. Sawbones (military surgeons) didn't cut them up to sew back intestines back then.

[10851Man]

@ Bushmaster,

After reading your explanation I have to agree with you. The face-down theory made sense.

About the "suffocating" soldier. In 2004 I investigated a murder where the victim was shot twice with a 9x19 124 grain FMJ. First shot was through the right hand into the chest (through the nipple line between sternum and RH breast) and it exited cleanly.

The victim spun around and was shot again with 1/2" of the exit wound, so both wounds appeared like the number '8' on his body.

He ran a short distance, through an apartment complex and collapsed at the door of a fellow Norteno gang member. They dragged him inside and propped him up against the wall. Pink froth seeped from the wounds and there was a good deal of blood on his clothing and the floor.

The victim's friends tried to stop the bleeding for 10 minutes or so, not wanting to call police (which hadn't been called because shots fired calls in that neighborhood were so common) and they didn't call 911 until he passed out.

When I arrived, he was in the same posture as the suffocating soldier. He still had pupillary reactivity and a faint pulse. However, he was turning blue around the lips. By the time paramedics arrived, agonal respiration had set in. They started a vent (chest tube) and worked on him for a few minutes, but never could restore a heartbeat.

At autopsy, the bullets missed the ribs entirely and only tissue and blood vessels were involved. The coroner said the shots punctured the RH ling and damage from both the bullet and temporary cavity destroyed blood vessels and he suffocated when the chest cavity filled with blood.

It was a terribly painful expression and his eyes were wide open as if he saw something that scared him.

I don't miss those days at all...

[10851Man]

A photo of the Northfield Bandits. Our relative, Bob Younger. appears in this photo. His brother, Cole Younger was said to have been shot 11 times in the volley and survived.

[10851Man]

Clell Miller was shot in the chest and head it appears...



Found this which may interest Bushmaster:

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townn...7336.image.jpg

An image of Chadwell and Miller together:

[10851Man]

Another casualty of war...

[Famas]

A very interesting thread, a sort of battlefield pathology which has given a kind of gruesome fascination to witnesses, doctors, and the curious alike. Yet, it should be remembered that it is also a very important field of forensic study to understand the devastating effects of warfare, no matter what the era.

About one of the images - I was looking at the images of the poor soul with the cannon brush by his side. I wonder if he was an NCO or officer? I say this because I noticed on his left side, and mostly hidden under his coat, we can the tip of what appears to be a sword scabbard.

[Hawg]

mostly hidden under his coat, we can the tip of what appears to be a sword scabbard.

Bayonet sheath.

[10851Man]

Agreed....bayonet sheath...

[bushmaster65]

That one pic you talked about where he looked as though he might have suffocated, that's certainly possible. I can't remember seeing any obvious wounds but remember a possible improvised dressing to the lower right leg?
As far as his body position goes, the impression I got from first glance was that he was being treated in that position. propped up.
As far as these north field pics, I started laughing because I swear those photographers were staging those blood trails...lol. You know that undertaker was "taking care of the burials" in return for a bit of commerce from the pics and body viewing etc. The blood is BS. All those guys had been cleaned up so there's gonna be no blood flow. That over lay of the anatomy was interesting but misleading as far as proportion and positioning. But it gives a decent idea of the underlying structures. So tell me about your relative Bob Younger. I'm afraid all I know is from movies such as the long riders, etc.

[10851Man]

@ bushmaster,

I agree with you 100% on your assessment of the photos. I will write more about Bob later when I have more time...

[10851Man]

Gunslingers in this photo:



Sam Bass Gang:

[10851Man]

James & Co.



James-Younger gang before Northfield Raid:



Look at the different weapons in the hands of james gang:



Jessie's wife's pistol:



James-Younger Northfield Pistol - said to have been dropped by Bill Chadwell when he was felled:



Cole Younger's pistol removed after his surrender at hanska Slough:

[Rigmarol]

I read somewhere a long time ago, that if you pay attention, most pictures taken of "cowboys" and such show everyone with their hats pushed back to the back of their heads.

The question was asked if this was a "style" back then.

The answer given was no, due to photography of the times, everyone was asked to "stay absolutely still" and to "push that hat back so we can see yur face!".

Anyone have more insight on this?

[B.L.E.]

I understand that people who posed for portraits in those early days often sat in chairs that had special head rests to help them hold absolutely still during the long exposure that early film needed.
The cameras didn't even have mechanical shutters, the photographer took off the lens cap, counted out the time with a watch, and then replaced the lens cap to expose the film.
That's why all those early photos were either of dead people or of people posing for a portrait.

[10851Man]

I have a photographer friend who still has an old antique tintype camera and we are going to try to find the resources to take some 'new' tintypes just for fun...

[bushmaster65]

You go taking tin types you gotta go all out...period wear and set? gotta see those -man

[Rigmarol]

(smarta$$ alert)

Uh, they got an "App" for that.

My sweetie:


Taken with my Android Smart phone.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

(Smarta$$ mode off)

[noelf2]

Back when Silver Dollar City still did real tin types.