More noob questions

Electronrider · January 25, 2008, 01:15 AM

With an equipment list laid out, and visions of teenie tiny groups in my head, I have a couple of questions that my ABC's of reloading and the various forums haven't been able to answer clearly for me.

I will be reloading for a .223 AR platform rifle. I see a lot of people talking about only neck sizing, as once the brass has expander to fit your chamber, you are good to go. Is this true for auto-loaders?

In just starting out, should I hunt down the absolute top of the line when it comes to my Die set? I see a lot of refences to redding, and bench level dies, but is that really necessary, or should that be an upgrade later on down the road after I get into this a bit more?

Am I better off buying a few hundred rounds of brand new top of the line brass, or should I just scrounge a nice pile of brass that is the same consistency?

Do the brand specific reloading manuals offer more information on reloading, or are they jsut giant books of tables? I have the ABC's of reloading ( which I considred an excelent primer to reloading), which do you all recommend for my next reloading library purchase?

Thanks everyone!

Sevens · January 25, 2008, 01:45 AM

Neck-only sizing should be reserved for rounds you will shoot from a bolt-action rifle or a single shot. And furthermore, it needs to be the same rifle. You won't have terrific luck neck-only sizing and then trying the rounds you build in three different bolt action rifles. In the AR platform, no, it's not for you.

As for which dies to buy, I've had terrific luck with Lee dies. They are by far (not even a close race) the cheapest. And some of the tools (outside of their dies) made by Lee are hokey, cheap, and made from plastic and aluminum, so a lot of folks see the Lee and the red color and dismiss it as junk. That's a mistake, IMO.

Could other dies be better? Certainly. But I would suggest this--get yourself a 3-die set in .223 from Lee. It'll seriously cost you like $20 or less. Get started with these and produce a hundred rounds and see what you see. When it comes to accuracy and performance in rifle caliber handloads, it's all about case preparation and bullet choice, IMO. For $20 or less, it won't hurt you a bit to try the Lee dies, and save your $40, $60 or $85 for "benchrest", "micrometer" or "competition" dies later. But I doubt you'll buy any other dies.

Brass: Of course, you should have been saving all the brass you've been shooting all your life up till now! If you haven't, or have none in .223/5.56, I'd find someone selling bulk lots of once-fired brass. And decide, before you start, if you want to use .223 or 5.56. They aren't different by much, but they are different, so go with one or the other. Myself, I use LC military brass. It's all I use, and it works like a charm.

Library: You've got a good tip right there in that word, "library." I don't know about other folks, but we've got an outrageous metro library system in the city nearest my home. I can search online and pull a book from any of their 20 different branches and they will drop it off at my local branch for me. I'd say check your local library and dig through these different handloading manuals and see what you like.

As for what they offer, I think they are important--especially for new reloaders, as they do a pretty good job of teaching you how to avoid the most dangerous pitfalls. They help you to look for and spot signs of pressure before you damage your firearm or yourself. But forums like this one are a helluva resource as well, as long as you try your best to confirm any advice that's offered with other sources.

This is getting lengthy, so I'll say just one more thing... you may have visions of teeny tiny groups in your head (mental prep, you are halfway home to good shooting!) but handloading and reloading isn't always going to be an easy, magic answer. You can make some of the most accurate ammo in the world, and finely tuned to your rifle and your needs. But it's not easy, takes a lot of work to get there, a lot of trial and error and experimenting. But it's a whole bunch of fun. My point: Don't get disappointed if your first 50 rounds don't group as well as a box of Winchester stuff.

Sigma 40 Blaster · January 25, 2008, 02:44 AM

I have to agree with everything Sevens said.

Lee dies are excellent. For .223 I have to admit I got RCBS Small Base dies, supposedly these will full-length size (A MUST for auto-loading rifles) all the way down to the anvil. I found a used Lee set for 10.00 at the gun shop...they seem to work just as well. For handgun calibers Lee dies have been very good to me, don't forget about the factory crimp die for either rifle or handgun. Some folks don't crimp their rifle or handgun ammo, I do.

I got some boxer primed once fired .223 brass off of Auction Arms, if you're going to buy new brass take a look at how much loaded ammo would cost in comparison. Buy the new ammo, shoot it, and you have a pile of brass.

I'm still pretty new so the ABC's of reloading and Modern Reloading by Richard Lee are always out on my desk or reloading bench somewhere. Those two books will answer 95% of the questions you could have, the other 5% can be answered right here : ).

I am also looking for another manual with a greater variety of loads for lead bullets.

Good luck. .223 is the hardest thing I've tried to load. Took me a while to get the crimp and seating depth just right but I learned a lot in the process. Never prime before you trim your cases (if you're using Lee case trimmer that is).

10-96 · January 25, 2008, 03:28 AM

I've always liked the Lee dies and press. The only thing I don't like about Lee dies are those rubber rings on the lock rings. I used to buy steel lock rings separately and replace the Lee rings... right up till I figgered out I could just turn the Lee rings upside down. Some folks may think the things work great- but I just never have developed a true sense that they are cinching down to the exact same spot every time.

Sevens · January 25, 2008, 08:30 AM

I would like to get the locking rings for piece of mind-- but they are over $3 each as I've seen them. C'mon! That's pushing a hundred bucks I've got to spend just to have locking rings on my dies?

I think the rubber gasket on the Lee dies works well. If you aren't convinced it's putting the die in the same exact spot, that's incredibly easy to remedy with a black fine point Sharpie. You put an index line on your press, and a line or a dot or a smiley face on the body of your die. Line them up, you are good to go.

craigcolorado · January 25, 2008, 11:56 PM

I'll be preaching Lee precision til I die!

Electronrider...Lee PaceSetter Die Set witht the Factory crimp die will do you right. Sevens uses LC Brass. These do perform great..but do remember..these are military brass. It's thicker/heavier than commercial brass...so don't try to start out at the rates in reloading manuals.....the book says to start out at 10% less than starting loads on military brass.

The RCBS small base dies could be a possibility....but for the price of Lee PaceSetter Dies...which includes the factory crimp die and shell holder..if you had to order the small base sizing die from RCBS....you'll still be headed in the right direction using Lee Products.

I suppose I'm picky...but I would purchase brass from the same lot number. Howbeit...Lake City Brass is tops!

Be patient...it sounds like you're after accuracy more than bulk shooting. That good! Do you have or thought about a chronograph??

Electronrider · January 26, 2008, 09:15 AM

Chronoghraphs are something I haven't delved too far into yet, haven't really started reading up on em. I have noticed that a lot of reloaders use them tho, so that will probably be on the 'B' list for equipment.

Red_Eagle · January 26, 2008, 09:42 AM

Lee is fine if your using commercial brass. Thier decapping pins are in a collet. That is so if they come under stress the pin will move up into the die instead of breaking. The pin always moves when you try to decap military brass. Military brass has the primers crimped in place so the dont rattle out when used in machine guns. So if your planning on using military brass your going to want a universal decapping pin and you'll NEED a military crimp remover. But with Remington and Wincester selling 223 brass for $20-24/100rds I dont know why you'd mess with military. 223 is my most common range pick-up.

Sevens · January 26, 2008, 10:12 AM

My experience does not agree with that at all.

I use the Lee freakishly cheap 2-die "RGB" set in .223. That's two dies, a full-length sizing die and a bullet seating die for $12.

All the brass I've ever processed and loaded in .223 has been Lake City (non-match) 80s and 90s manufacture. This isn't milsurp brass--this is U.S. Govt Issued brass, once-fired from USGI M-16s on the 1,000 yard range at Camp Perry. I've never displaced the decapping pin on my sizing die with any of these pieces. (I have slid the decapper up on my 9mm carbide sizing die with some resistant 9 brass on occasion, but never with LC brass in 5.56)

To remove the primer crimp on my LC brass, I give it a quick twist with the Lee chamfer and deburring tool. I haven't had any trouble. I've sized, loaded, fired and trimmed thousands of these.

With all that said, a Lee Universal Decapping die is still a great purchase. It's a versatile tool that's built like a tank and cheap. But I prefer my LC military brass simply because it's all the same and I have a ton of it. I still pick up commercial .223 brass, because I pick up all brass. But I don't reload any of it because I get everything I want out of the LC brass. It's tough and consistent.

Red_Eagle · January 26, 2008, 12:07 PM

It could just be that the brass I'm using had an extra tough crimp. I do Know it's not american. It has an "I V I" head stamp. I wa stold at the time it was canadian, but I dont know if thats true or not. Not saying Lee is bad. I use a ton of Lee stuff. The only trimming system I have is Lee. The oly Lee product I dont like (straight out of the box) is the collet neck sizing die. Never enough neck tention. Very easy fix if you dont go over board with the sand paper.

TexasSeaRay · January 26, 2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electronrider

More noob questions
With an equipment list laid out, and visions of teenie tiny groups in my head, I have a couple of questions that my ABC's of reloading and the various forums haven't been able to answer clearly for me.

I will be reloading for a .223 AR platform rifle. I see a lot of people talking about only neck sizing, as once the brass has expander to fit your chamber, you are good to go. Is this true for auto-loaders?

Not sure about that--I've never reloaded for 5.56. I have so much surplus loaded 5/56 bagged up and locked in the ammo safe, not sure if I ever will.

However, I load enough rifle ammo for the mid-size calibres, and one thing I've found over the years is if you want those teenie tiny groups you're envisioning to be become reality is "shortcuts won't get you there."

Quote:

In just starting out, should I hunt down the absolute top of the line when it comes to my Die set? I see a lot of refences to redding, and bench level dies, but is that really necessary, or should that be an upgrade later on down the road after I get into this a bit more?

When you're just starting out, it's best to learn the basics. The micrometer dies are good, but they add another level of unnecessary complication and complexity to the process. And, chances are good that as a new reloader, you would not see or realize the benefit for many hundreds, if not thousands of rounds--that being after a myriad of powder/primer/cartridge/bullet combinations.

Down the road when you're trying to reduce .5MOA to .25MOA at 400 meters (grin) and you're stuck, you might give upgrading dies a shot and see if it makes the difference. But for starting out, go with the Lee dies.

I have both Lee and RCBS dies. I've had no problems with either. I lean heavily towards the Lee carbide dies as I have had excellent success with them. I load far more handgun rounds than long gun, and for handgun rounds, Lee dies are ALL I will ever buy.

Quote:

Am I better off buying a few hundred rounds of brand new top of the line brass, or should I just scrounge a nice pile of brass that is the same consistency?

Both. You can never have too much brass.

Scrounge some once-fired brass and use that while teaching yourself the intracies of reloading.

I save my new/never-fired brass for my "I think I've finally got this load perfected" loads. I never have found perfection yet, but I sure enjoy the journey looking for it.

Quote:

Do the brand specific reloading manuals offer more information on reloading, or are they jsut giant books of tables? I have the ABC's of reloading ( which I considred an excelent primer to reloading), which do you all recommend for my next reloading library purchase?

Thanks everyone!

I'm kind of an information-junkie. I have a decent library of reloading digests, books, and data sheets/catalogues from various powder and bullet manufacturers going back into the 1970's.

Funny thing is, rarely do any of them all agree. I have a big binder packed with loads from Sierra, and it is most often more at odds with everyone else than any of the others--and I like Sierra bullets (just don't like their reloading data).

I also have some loose-leaf binders filled with various reloading articles from magazines, books and internet articles. I keep them separated by calibre.

Since you already have The ABC's of Reloading, a great addition to that would be the Handloader's Digest, 18th edition, published by Hornady. Great articles and good load data.

And from there, just keep continuing to build your own library.

Good luck, and enjoy.

Jeff

slotracer577 · January 26, 2008, 02:27 PM

I have the lee 4 die set in .223, but I found I didnt like the decaping pin moving on me. I got a hornady FL sizer and like it better than my lee. Down side is the Hornady die was more than the whole lee set.

I really like the lee piston dies that I have. the crimp die is great, I could not get a good crimp on my 44 mag with RCBS dies, so I go the crimp die from Lee. works great and I know all my rounds will chamber since they have a sizing ring on the crimper.

John

rwilson452 · January 26, 2008, 03:42 PM

generally speaking, using neck sizing in a semiauto is not recommended. You may be able to get away with it or not. It really depends on the chamber in your particular rifle. I would suspect that after a few loadings you will need to full length resize to bump the shoulder back in spec anyway.

T. O'Heir · January 26, 2008, 04:36 PM

"... Is this true for auto-loaders?..." No. Semi-auto's require full length resizing every time. Causes feeding and chambering issues if you don't. Nothing will be damaged if you neck size only, though.
"...manual with a greater variety of loads..." Lyman puts out a manual specifically for cast bullets. The regular Lyman manual is far more versatile than any bullet maker's book too. It has more loads using more bullet weights and powders than any manufacturer's book. The manufacturer's books only have loads for their bullets.
"..."I V I" head stamp..." Yep. Canadian milsurp. Good brass. 'IVI' stands for Industries Valcartier Inc.
"...scrounge a nice pile of brass..." Scrounging brass of different makes doesn't mean you'll get consistency. Most people buy factory ammo, shoot it and reload the brass. Or you can buy new or once fired brass. .223 brass isn't expensive or hard to find. However, a lot depends on whether you're loading for match accuracy, hunting or just to shoot for fun.

January 25, 2008, 01:15 AM	#1
Electronrider Member Join Date: October 24, 2006 Posts: 28	More noob questions With an equipment list laid out, and visions of teenie tiny groups in my head, I have a couple of questions that my ABC's of reloading and the various forums haven't been able to answer clearly for me. I will be reloading for a .223 AR platform rifle. I see a lot of people talking about only neck sizing, as once the brass has expander to fit your chamber, you are good to go. Is this true for auto-loaders? In just starting out, should I hunt down the absolute top of the line when it comes to my Die set? I see a lot of refences to redding, and bench level dies, but is that really necessary, or should that be an upgrade later on down the road after I get into this a bit more? Am I better off buying a few hundred rounds of brand new top of the line brass, or should I just scrounge a nice pile of brass that is the same consistency? Do the brand specific reloading manuals offer more information on reloading, or are they jsut giant books of tables? I have the ABC's of reloading ( which I considred an excelent primer to reloading), which do you all recommend for my next reloading library purchase? Thanks everyone!

January 25, 2008, 01:45 AM	#2
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Neck-only sizing should be reserved for rounds you will shoot from a bolt-action rifle or a single shot. And furthermore, it needs to be the same rifle. You won't have terrific luck neck-only sizing and then trying the rounds you build in three different bolt action rifles. In the AR platform, no, it's not for you. As for which dies to buy, I've had terrific luck with Lee dies. They are by far (not even a close race) the cheapest. And some of the tools (outside of their dies) made by Lee are hokey, cheap, and made from plastic and aluminum, so a lot of folks see the Lee and the red color and dismiss it as junk. That's a mistake, IMO. Could other dies be better? Certainly. But I would suggest this--get yourself a 3-die set in .223 from Lee. It'll seriously cost you like $20 or less. Get started with these and produce a hundred rounds and see what you see. When it comes to accuracy and performance in rifle caliber handloads, it's all about case preparation and bullet choice, IMO. For $20 or less, it won't hurt you a bit to try the Lee dies, and save your $40, $60 or $85 for "benchrest", "micrometer" or "competition" dies later. But I doubt you'll buy any other dies. Brass: Of course, you should have been saving all the brass you've been shooting all your life up till now! If you haven't, or have none in .223/5.56, I'd find someone selling bulk lots of once-fired brass. And decide, before you start, if you want to use .223 or 5.56. They aren't different by much, but they are different, so go with one or the other. Myself, I use LC military brass. It's all I use, and it works like a charm. Library: You've got a good tip right there in that word, "library." I don't know about other folks, but we've got an outrageous metro library system in the city nearest my home. I can search online and pull a book from any of their 20 different branches and they will drop it off at my local branch for me. I'd say check your local library and dig through these different handloading manuals and see what you like. As for what they offer, I think they are important--especially for new reloaders, as they do a pretty good job of teaching you how to avoid the most dangerous pitfalls. They help you to look for and spot signs of pressure before you damage your firearm or yourself. But forums like this one are a helluva resource as well, as long as you try your best to confirm any advice that's offered with other sources. This is getting lengthy, so I'll say just one more thing... you may have visions of teeny tiny groups in your head (mental prep, you are halfway home to good shooting!) but handloading and reloading isn't always going to be an easy, magic answer. You can make some of the most accurate ammo in the world, and finely tuned to your rifle and your needs. But it's not easy, takes a lot of work to get there, a lot of trial and error and experimenting. But it's a whole bunch of fun. My point: Don't get disappointed if your first 50 rounds don't group as well as a box of Winchester stuff. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

January 25, 2008, 03:28 AM	#4
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,159	I've always liked the Lee dies and press. The only thing I don't like about Lee dies are those rubber rings on the lock rings. I used to buy steel lock rings separately and replace the Lee rings... right up till I figgered out I could just turn the Lee rings upside down. Some folks may think the things work great- but I just never have developed a true sense that they are cinching down to the exact same spot every time. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

January 25, 2008, 08:30 AM	#5
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I would like to get the locking rings for piece of mind-- but they are over $3 each as I've seen them. C'mon! That's pushing a hundred bucks I've got to spend just to have locking rings on my dies? I think the rubber gasket on the Lee dies works well. If you aren't convinced it's putting the die in the same exact spot, that's incredibly easy to remedy with a black fine point Sharpie. You put an index line on your press, and a line or a dot or a smiley face on the body of your die. Line them up, you are good to go. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

January 25, 2008, 11:56 PM	#6
craigcolorado Member Join Date: January 12, 2008 Posts: 61	I feel right at home!! I'll be preaching Lee precision til I die! Electronrider...Lee PaceSetter Die Set witht the Factory crimp die will do you right. Sevens uses LC Brass. These do perform great..but do remember..these are military brass. It's thicker/heavier than commercial brass...so don't try to start out at the rates in reloading manuals.....the book says to start out at 10% less than starting loads on military brass. The RCBS small base dies could be a possibility....but for the price of Lee PaceSetter Dies...which includes the factory crimp die and shell holder..if you had to order the small base sizing die from RCBS....you'll still be headed in the right direction using Lee Products. I suppose I'm picky...but I would purchase brass from the same lot number. Howbeit...Lake City Brass is tops! Be patient...it sounds like you're after accuracy more than bulk shooting. That good! Do you have or thought about a chronograph??

January 25, 2008, 02:44 AM	#3
Sigma 40 Blaster Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: East Texas Posts: 997	I have to agree with everything Sevens said. Lee dies are excellent. For .223 I have to admit I got RCBS Small Base dies, supposedly these will full-length size (A MUST for auto-loading rifles) all the way down to the anvil. I found a used Lee set for 10.00 at the gun shop...they seem to work just as well. For handgun calibers Lee dies have been very good to me, don't forget about the factory crimp die for either rifle or handgun. Some folks don't crimp their rifle or handgun ammo, I do. I got some boxer primed once fired .223 brass off of Auction Arms, if you're going to buy new brass take a look at how much loaded ammo would cost in comparison. Buy the new ammo, shoot it, and you have a pile of brass. I'm still pretty new so the ABC's of reloading and Modern Reloading by Richard Lee are always out on my desk or reloading bench somewhere. Those two books will answer 95% of the questions you could have, the other 5% can be answered right here : ). I am also looking for another manual with a greater variety of loads for lead bullets. Good luck. .223 is the hardest thing I've tried to load. Took me a while to get the crimp and seating depth just right but I learned a lot in the process. Never prime before you trim your cases (if you're using Lee case trimmer that is).

January 26, 2008, 09:15 AM	#7
Electronrider Member Join Date: October 24, 2006 Posts: 28	Chronoghraphs are something I haven't delved too far into yet, haven't really started reading up on em. I have noticed that a lot of reloaders use them tho, so that will probably be on the 'B' list for equipment.

January 26, 2008, 09:42 AM	#8
Red_Eagle Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2007 Location: Western NY Posts: 598	Lee is fine if your using commercial brass. Thier decapping pins are in a collet. That is so if they come under stress the pin will move up into the die instead of breaking. The pin always moves when you try to decap military brass. Military brass has the primers crimped in place so the dont rattle out when used in machine guns. So if your planning on using military brass your going to want a universal decapping pin and you'll NEED a military crimp remover. But with Remington and Wincester selling 223 brass for $20-24/100rds I dont know why you'd mess with military. 223 is my most common range pick-up.

January 26, 2008, 10:12 AM	#9
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	My experience does not agree with that at all. I use the Lee freakishly cheap 2-die "RGB" set in .223. That's two dies, a full-length sizing die and a bullet seating die for $12. All the brass I've ever processed and loaded in .223 has been Lake City (non-match) 80s and 90s manufacture. This isn't milsurp brass--this is U.S. Govt Issued brass, once-fired from USGI M-16s on the 1,000 yard range at Camp Perry. I've never displaced the decapping pin on my sizing die with any of these pieces. (I have slid the decapper up on my 9mm carbide sizing die with some resistant 9 brass on occasion, but never with LC brass in 5.56) To remove the primer crimp on my LC brass, I give it a quick twist with the Lee chamfer and deburring tool. I haven't had any trouble. I've sized, loaded, fired and trimmed thousands of these. With all that said, a Lee Universal Decapping die is still a great purchase. It's a versatile tool that's built like a tank and cheap. But I prefer my LC military brass simply because it's all the same and I have a ton of it. I still pick up commercial .223 brass, because I pick up all brass. But I don't reload any of it because I get everything I want out of the LC brass. It's tough and consistent. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

January 26, 2008, 12:07 PM	#10
Red_Eagle Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2007 Location: Western NY Posts: 598	It could just be that the brass I'm using had an extra tough crimp. I do Know it's not american. It has an "I V I" head stamp. I wa stold at the time it was canadian, but I dont know if thats true or not. Not saying Lee is bad. I use a ton of Lee stuff. The only trimming system I have is Lee. The oly Lee product I dont like (straight out of the box) is the collet neck sizing die. Never enough neck tention. Very easy fix if you dont go over board with the sand paper. Last edited by Red_Eagle; January 26, 2008 at 04:59 PM.

January 26, 2008, 02:27 PM	#12
slotracer577 Member Join Date: December 6, 2007 Posts: 25	I have the lee 4 die set in .223, but I found I didnt like the decaping pin moving on me. I got a hornady FL sizer and like it better than my lee. Down side is the Hornady die was more than the whole lee set. I really like the lee piston dies that I have. the crimp die is great, I could not get a good crimp on my 44 mag with RCBS dies, so I go the crimp die from Lee. works great and I know all my rounds will chamber since they have a sizing ring on the crimper. John

January 26, 2008, 03:42 PM	#13
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	generally speaking, using neck sizing in a semiauto is not recommended. You may be able to get away with it or not. It really depends on the chamber in your particular rifle. I would suspect that after a few loadings you will need to full length resize to bump the shoulder back in spec anyway.

January 26, 2008, 04:36 PM	#14
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"... Is this true for auto-loaders?..." No. Semi-auto's require full length resizing every time. Causes feeding and chambering issues if you don't. Nothing will be damaged if you neck size only, though. "...manual with a greater variety of loads..." Lyman puts out a manual specifically for cast bullets. The regular Lyman manual is far more versatile than any bullet maker's book too. It has more loads using more bullet weights and powders than any manufacturer's book. The manufacturer's books only have loads for their bullets. "..."I V I" head stamp..." Yep. Canadian milsurp. Good brass. 'IVI' stands for Industries Valcartier Inc. "...scrounge a nice pile of brass..." Scrounging brass of different makes doesn't mean you'll get consistency. Most people buy factory ammo, shoot it and reload the brass. Or you can buy new or once fired brass. .223 brass isn't expensive or hard to find. However, a lot depends on whether you're loading for match accuracy, hunting or just to shoot for fun. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!