Bar room beating of a woman by off-duty LEO

[fourtwentytexas]

In Texas there is no "good samaritan" law. The best course of action is to walk away and call 911. I have learned the hard way to look out for #1. Nice guys finish last. If you run away, you live to run away another day. Call it cowardly. This is not the situation to use deadly force. I carry a can of Fox Labs OC spray as a force continuum. This would be the apropriate amount of force in a situation like this.

[joab]

The fact that he was a cop or what he said or didn't say he was going to do or where the incident occurred have no bearing on whether shooting would be justified.

The Goetz case among many others has set precedence that having an illegal gun or having a gun illegally does not effect whether using the gun was justified

A person does not need to say that they are going to escalate a crime while they are committing a violent crime in order to act on that violent crime.

The video showing the cop acting in a decidedly uncopply manner would certainly mitigate any any benefit of doubt that a cop may get.

In Florida deadly force is allowed to stop a violent felony in progress. It doesn't take much deductive reasoning to see that this was a violent crime and that it was certainly in progress.

As many of you know I am usually against the common acts of posturing machismo that goes on in these types on discussions, but
I could have shot the guy and not only gone home and slept the peaceful sleep of the righteous but would have demanded a commendation from the sheriff, the key to the city and afree trip to Disney World, that I would turn down

[kennybs plbg]

The Goetz case among many others has set precedence that having an illegal gun or having a gun illegally does not effect whether using the gun was justified

The Goetz case was in NY, and his attackers were armed. Precedence is set only in NYS, Goetz did do time on a firearms charge.
NYS does not allow deadly force under the conditions that were present, but will allow any force necessary just short of deadly force to halt the attack. Deadly force would be allowed if You reasonably believed there was a threat to life at anytime and you reasonably believed there was no other way.
Residents in NYS have some of the most liberal and best self defense laws in the country in my opinion. Sounds crazy but its true.

kenny b

[joab]

The Goetz case was in NY,

You must have missed the "among many others" part of the comment

and his attackers were armed

. Which created the deadly threat that allowed him to act with deadly force. A weapon is not always necessary to prove deadly threat or reasonable fear.

Precedence is set only in NYS

,Again "among many others"

Goetz did do time on a firearms charge.

But he did not do time for the shooting itself, which supports my comments that the legality of the weapon does not indicate the legality of using it

[Duxman]

The Goetz case

This is a completely different case with completely different circumstances. See part of the differences above.

Also Goetz did not shoot a POLICEMAN.

I dont think that anyone with some rudimentary intelligence can dispute that there are good cops (majority) and some bad cops. All the policeman I have encountered in my 38 years have been all good cops.

But if you were in a situation like this, there is no dispute that even though you can say different on the internet, if you knew that a policeman right or wrong was beating up someone, you would behave differently than if it was a regular person beating up someone. (120 pound girl or other.)

Forget the fact that it was a policeman - lets say it was a secret service agent - would you act any different? What if it was an FBI agent?

Confronting a dangerous situation like this, and the person you are confronting is armed. (You spot the holster as he beats up the helpless) You had better make sure you are ready to go all the way. Otherwise you jump in there, you are most likely going to get shot.

Nothing more noble than losing your life to save someone else. There is nothing more honorable. But guess what - in the real world - some of us have a family that depends on us.

[Trip20]

I could have shot the guy and not only gone home and slept the peaceful sleep of the righteous but would have demanded a commendation from the sheriff, the key to the city and afree trip to Disney World, that I would turn down

Do you also support cops arriving on scene of an assault and gunning down the winning aggressor?

I don't.

And as the older gentlemen in this video proves, it didn't take a firearm to save the day.

I might like to gun down this piece of garbage on a personal level, because I feel his actions are so dispicable, but I wouldn't sleep well nor could I justify the shooting when I know there were other more reasonable options.

Different strokes I guess.

[joab]

This is a completely different case with completely different circumstances. See part of the differences above.

Please explain the pertinent differences as they pertain to my comment.
Goetz was illegally in possession of his firearms but that did not impact on the justification of the shooting.

Also Goetz did not shoot a POLICEMAN.

Only because it was not a POLICEMAN trying to rob him. If it had been he would have been justified in shooting that POLICEMAN.

Do you also support cops arriving on scene of an assault and gunning down the winning aggressor?

I thought you and I were past this.
Please show me where I have supported anyone shooting the winning aggressor.
I'll show you where I support shooting a 250 pound aggressor committing a forcible felony that could very well end in the death or permanent injury to his 100 pound victim as it applies to this one particular case.

And as the older gentlemen in this video proves, it didn't take a firearm to save the day

In this case yes, but we also do not know what prior relationship the old man had with the criminal.

but I wouldn't sleep well nor could I justify the shooting when I know there were other more reasonable options.

I could.
If hitting him over the head with a chair was a better option or macing or peeing in his ear would have stopped the attack even better, but if I had deemed it necessary to shoot someone committing that type of attack I would have no moral second guessing to keep me up at night.

The morality of the shooting was what I was commenting on not the legality, but in Florida I believe that I would be justified

[kennybs plbg]

The Goetz case was in NY,

You must have missed the "among many others" part of the comment

No, but you didn't state "any of the many others" just the Goetz case which is limited only to NY in precedence and out of left field compared to what the discussion is about.

Precedence is set only in NYS

,Again "among many others"

just words again no substance.

Goetz did do time on a firearms charge.

But he did not do time for the shooting itself, which supports my comments that the legality of the weapon does not indicate the legality of using it

The only time firearm legality was mentioned in this case was the fact that a firearm was illegal to possess in the bar. Again this is not true in a bar in NY, ccw's are allowed in bars. With Goetz he was not licensed to own a handgun.

kenny b

[Trip20]

Originally Posted by joab

I thought you and I were past this.
Please show me where I have supported anyone shooting the winning aggressor.
I'll show you where I support shooting a 250 pound aggressor committing a forcible felony that could very well end in the death or permanent injury to his 100 pound victim as it applies to this one particular case.

joab, don't try that with me.

I think it's very clear as evident by the coat hanger looking thing (a.k.a. question mark) that I was asking you a question. I did not put words in your mouth at all.

You stated "[you] could have shot the guy" and it appears you were talking about this specific case (subject video).

I then asked if you support law enforcement arriving on scene and opening fire in the same fashion as you would have done in this specific case.

This is a specific question based on your specific comment. Either answer the question, or don't... but don't skew this into one of your "show me where I said..." tangents.

Have a little of your own medicine: Why don't you show me where I said you supported anyone shooting the winning aggressor?

[lockedcj7]

This is one of the reasons that I don't spend any time in bars.

If a 300lb guy is beating up a 120lb woman, you have to do something. I mean something to stop the attack, not just video tape it for use later or kick his a$$. I'm not a superhero and I don't have even a touch of the White-Knight syndrome but I don't want to live in a world where it's okay to just stand by and watch. Ever hear of Kitty Genovese?

As for cops who give the profession a bad name, I understand why some people feel the way they do. Look at the way some officers act on COPS and they KNOW they are being taped. Imagine how some of them act when there is no camera around. LEOs who want to be thought of as professionals need to stand up to these jerks. If cops are ever going to shake the bad image many people have of them, they need to do more than "hang that guy out to dry."

The DA and the local PD needs prosecute this guy to the fullest extent of the law. They need to show the community that there is no tolerance for abuse of power within the department and 'brother' officers need to understand that guys like this are making your job harder and more dangerous.

Most LEOs I've dealt with either casually or in their capacity have been polite, respectful and easy to deal with. That said, I have been bullied by cops before and it pissed me off. I had to remind myself that this guy doesn't know I'm one of the good guys. He is laying his life on the line for poverty wages, dealing with the dregs of society and it's a job I'm not willing to do so I cut him some slack.

Cops are constantly being second-guessed and their use of force questioned. That's one of the reasons for dash-cams and video taping warrant arrests and searches. Heck, SWAT teams often have a video man so that they can provide evidence that they didn't use excessive force so to say that cops can do whatever they want just isn't true.

[/rant]

[markj]

This guy asked for a drink, the bartender (gal that got beat up) refused to serve him so he went behind the bar and whipped up on her, he was breaking 2 laws here so far, behind most bars is a "hot button" that when pushed gets a whole lot of cops on the scene real fast, this should only be used in a robbery or life threating event, the other bar workers should have called 911 and helped her out, this is not a job for the bar patrons, they should always try to stay out of it as much as possible. If you need to get involved you try to physically remove him from the building. You dont go and shoot him, in most states you will go to jail I belive. She didnt fear for her life and said so publically against her lawyers wishes I am sure.

Doesnt anyone use fists anymore for SD?

[joab]

Do you also support cops arriving on scene of an assault and gunning down the winning aggressor?

If you are not making one of the all too familiar attempts at diversion through digression why would you suppose that I had any opinion on what cops should do when they arrive at a similar scene, especially since you point out that it was evident to you that I was speaking of my reaction only to this particular incident?

But since I will br gracious and accept your claim that you are simply asking my opinion on a broad brush police policy for which I lack the practical experience to comment on and have made no attempt to even imply any position on--
Sure why not.
If police arrive on a scene and find a grossly over matched victim being put in very real danger of having their life abruptly ended or negatively changed and their evaluation of the situation, which includes the fact that he had assaulted others at the location and that he has apparently lost control of his intelligence, deems it necessary , in their opinion, to shoot the guy?
Hell shoot him three times I wont complain and I'll buy the a coffee if it helps them sleep better

[KALIFORNIST]

lockedcj7 I agree with almost all off your post but I must disagree when you say that cops make poverty wages.I am a cable guy so I see how everyone lives,rich,poor and everything in the middle.I have yet to see a cop living in poverty.Part of my job is making small talk and customer service so at almost every job what someone does for living comes up.From my personal experience in my area of southern california most types of police officers do pretty well and more then afew have bragged about how much easy overtime they get or how sweet their job is.

[Rangefinder]

Kalifornist>> I can vouche for that a bit. Had a rep from LAPD trying to recruit from the Criminal Justice program at the university here. Starting pay right out of POST was 51K per year and detective grades average 75K to 90K per year. Even with the higher cost of living, that's a far reach above poverty. That's even higher than the norm for a structural engineer in most places.

[joab]

KALIFORNIST

I can also vouch for the validity of that statement

I was a bugman in Florida for 25 years and my BIL is a deputy sheriff

[Trip20]

Originally Posted by joab

If you are not making one of the all too familiar attempts at diversion through digression

Asking a question is an (failed) attempt to obtain further clarification on an opinion that I do not - at least at this time - hold myself or fully understand.

We don't need to turn this into some kind of pissing contest. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. I'm not using some fancy scheme of "diversion through digression." But I'm flattered you assume I have the cognitive capacity to do such a thing.

Originally Posted by joab

why would you suppose that I had any opinion on what cops should do when they arrive at a similar scene, especially since you point out that it was evident to you that I was speaking of my reaction only to this particular incident?

To answer your question, I wasn't supposing you had an opinion on what cops should do.

But I did ask you the question so that you could form an opinion (if you already had not) and share it with me. I was curious as to what your thoughts are on how a cop should respond in that same situation, and specifically if it was OK for a cop to respond in the same manner you would.

(For reference, your manner of response as relayed by you as: "I could have shot the guy and not only gone home and slept the peaceful sleep of the righteous but would have demanded a commendation from the sheriff, the key to the city and afree trip to Disney World, that I would turn down")

Again, you can form an opinion at the time of questioning, or use a pre-formed opinion; which ever you prefer.

------On to my opinion------

If we're speaking of the video and all of the known conditions, I don't feel shooting is justified for myself, nor for a law enforcement officer, until at least a few other circumstances are introduced. Such as weapons, or other similar variables that might give me cause for alarm that there’s a real and present danger towards this woman’s life.

Again, we're speaking of this video.

The more I watch the video it's apparent that a fair portion of the punches are not connecting very well. The girl is doing a fine job of covering herself and moving enough to make most blows either misses, or just glances.

Not that this lessens the brutality of the crime this man committed...but it does lead me to believe further that I could overcome this guy physically, with out the use of a firearm.

Another reason for the question I asked you is that I don't think you'd find too many law enforcement officers who'd be comfortable shooting in the situation presented in the video (even if the attacker was non-LEO).

There are other less lethal responses available, which would be quite effective, and that are more appropriate for the level of assault taking place in this video. I find fault in anyone who skips those options and goes right for the firearm.

[lockedcj7]

I didn't mean to divert the discussion into one about cops wages vs. <blank>. Especially considering OT, they can make a good living in some areas but remember that all that OT is time away from family, not just extra money. I'd also argue that given the rotating shifts and the risks involved most of us aren't willing to do it for whatever the wage is.

[joab]

Asking a question is an (failed) attempt to obtain further clarification on an opinion that I do not - at least at this time - hold myself or fully understand.

You are familiar with the concept of a leading question I presume

But I'm flattered you assume I have the cognitive capacity to do such a thing.

That is why I did not refer to it as a simplistic ploy. I thought by now you knew what I thought of your cognitive capacity, which is why Itend not to give you enough rope to hang me (that's a compliment if you hadn't figure it out)

The more I watch the video it's apparent that a fair portion of the punches are not connecting very well.

But would we have that luxury in the heat of the moment

but it does lead me to believe further that I could overcome this guy physically, with out the use of a firearm.

If your or my real time assessment of the situation determined that then we should go with it, if not sleep well knowing that you protected an innocent in the best manner you could find

Another reason for the question I asked you is that I don't think you'd find too many law enforcement officers who'd be comfortable shooting in the situation presented in the video

You also wont find to many LEO who do not have more and better means and equipment to deal with a situation that they spend the majority of their day training to handle.

There are other less lethal responses available, which would be quite effective, and that are more appropriate for the level of assault taking place in this video. I find fault in anyone who skips those options and goes right for the firearm.

As I would find fault with anyone who allowed the situation to go past the point of no return because they were squeamish about pulling their gun if that is what the situation called for.

While I do not believe in absolutes I do have a mental check list of what constitutes my intervention and to what level that intervention will go .
I have worked these out in my mind over the years and have at times been forced to put them, to some extent, into practice.
I have wrestled with all the morality issues on my own and have come up with my own code that works for me.
If you have done likewise it is obvious from this and past conversations that you have not come to the same conclusions that I have.

A short assessment of my credo is
It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak, but not necessarily their duty to die or put themselves in grave physical danger doing it if avoidable

[FLA2760]

That lady just hit the lottery. That so called cop should be fired and jailed.

[KALIFORNIST]

lockedcj7 I also dont want to turn this thread in a different dirrection but I just dont believe A police officers job to be any more dangerous then a iron worker,electric linemen,or even a truck driver for that matter.Lots of us do dangerous jobs and risk injury constantly.I know afew cops and 1 corrections officer and they all admit that while their job is considered dangerous there are a whole lot more positives then negatives and that they would consider their jobs easy and also even exciting.! universal complaint was paperwork I am not trying to pick a fight with you I just dont believe in the common thought that all cops are heros and they do a job nobody wants to do while dealing with the worst of society so we dont have to while living in a shack and living off mac and cheese.I will leave it alone now.

[badbob]

Some of the corruption in Chicago PD is being exposed. Think things will change?
http://www.suntimes.com/news/marin/3...arol28.article

City must end shameful history of bad cops now

March 28, 2007
BY CAROL MARIN Sun-Times Columnist
Enough already. We don't need one more promise. Or one more policy to protect us from wayward police officers.

Or Police Supt. Phil Cline assuring us last night that he is "disgusted to witness" his cops clobbering innocent citizens and then covering it up.


RELATED STORIES
• Cline takes on thug cops
What we need, once and for all, is a true accounting of just how big this problem is and how much it's costing us. What we need is a comprehensive plan to deal with police brutality, not to mention torture, in a holistic, sensible, truthful way. That's something nobody, not the mayor nor superintendents of police nor state's attorneys, have ever been willing to do.
Chicago, be clear.

The whole world is watching.

From Mexico to Moscow, CNN has shown the international community the shameful videotape of off-duty Chicago Police Officer Anthony Abbate trying to beat the living daylights out of a female bartender less than half his size. In what appears to be an alcohol-soaked rage, Abbate showed us Chicago's Finest at their lowest. And the cops who were called in to stop Abbate's pounding of Karolina Obrycka at Jesse's Short Stop Inn once again cause us to ask whether Chicago Police would rather close ranks to protect a brother officer than protect the public from a crazed cop.

If you had any doubt that some in the Police Department remain unmoved by this outrageous conduct, you need only consider what happened Tuesday when Abbate appeared in court. A dozen of his police pals blocked reporters and cameras, ticketed vehicles, threatened one news team with arrest and made sure Abbate was whisked in and out of the building through private entrances out of public sight.

So exactly what is it that these cops don't get? In defending "a few rotten apples,'' are they really willing to trash the whole damn orchard?

Let's review the list, shall we?

Jon Burge and Torture (1973-1991):

To this very day, Mayor Daley and the city Law Department continue to pay the fees of a raft of lawyers, expensive outside legal counsel, to defend the indefensible. Even though the city already has paid millions in settlements for what Burge and his boys did to force murder suspects to confess (electrodes on testicles, suffocation and cattle prods), even though the city admitted years ago that "an astounding pattern of torture" existed, the city still defends Burge in current federal cases. And Daley, who was the Cook County state's attorney for many of the years when Burge and his gang were brutalizing suspects, has yet to have a candid conversation with the public or the courts about how it could have happened under his and other public officials' watch.

Oh, one other thing.

Not a single solitary police officer, prosecutor or judge has ever come forward to testify about what Burge did to make his cases. Make no mistake, a number of them knew.

Joseph Miedzianowski, Cop, Dope Dealer, Gun Runner:

One of the worst officers ever to wear a badge was also one of the department's shining stars and most protected players. No less than Raymond Risley, head of Internal Affairs during Meidzianowski's ruthless reign, defended him in the face of growing evidence he was a violent, corrupt, menacing thug. Even though Miedzianowski went to prison, it took 15 years and a federal jury to acknowledge the damage that this one cop did to, among others, two federal agents who desperately tried to get the city to investigate the danger he posed to the community. As a result, for years Miedzianowski terrorized those agents. Last month, the jury awarded them $9.75 million in damages, obligating us taxpayers to pony up for the city's failure.

SOS -- The Still Growing Special Operations Scandal:

Last summer, the elite Special Operations Section of the Chicago Police Department saw the indictment of four highly decorated cops. Police Officer Jerome Finnegan and members of his unit are charged with home invasion, robbery and the ripoff of drug dealers they were investigating. Along the way, they allegedly robbed and terrorized people who were not drug dealers but simply immigrant workers who kept cash in their homes. Did Internal Affairs know about the allegations? You bet. Did it promptly and aggressively investigate? Absolutely not. Is the scandal going to get worse? Count on it.

The New Ticking Time Bomb:

There is another videotape out there that the Police Department has not released. It shows six off-duty cops beating four businessmen at a downtown bar in December. One of the victims had to have reconstructive surgery. When police were called to investigate, the off-duty officers waved them off. Supt. Cline, last night, stripped the cops of their police powers.

In addition, Cline declared that Abbate's beating of the barmaid "tarnished our image worse than anybody else in the history of the department."

He's dead wrong.

If Jon Burge or Joe Meidzianowski had ever been caught on tape, Chicago might have qualified for the International Court at the Hague by now.

badbob

[SpiritWalker]

What would I do? *shrugs* I can't honestly say until it happens but based on my past performance you'd probably be arguing endlessly about what I did on the forums after reading what happened in the papers and seeing it on the news.

My two cents on the good cop/bad cop debate. If you are a LEO and know of ANY other LEO that abuses the position or authority without reporting it, in writing to your agency with copies to the appropriate state and federal agencies, that makes YOU a scumbag bad cop too IMO.

[EskrimadoR]

all I can say is: " BAD COPS..NO DONUTS FOR YOU!!"

[fourtwentytexas]

If you are a LEO and know of ANY other LEO that abuses the position or authority without reporting it, in writing to your agency with copies to the appropriate state and federal agencies, that makes YOU a scumbag bad cop too IMO.

If you do report it, it makes you a Serpico and you are shunned buy the LEO community.

[JCaraker]

Stupid is just that, no matter what billet the aforementioned dummy occupies. I hope he gets taken for everything he and his family is worth. As far as jumping in? You have to take care of yourself now before you can take care of anyone else down the line. Picture this, you jump in and get hurt. Now after you jumped on a cop in a bar, you might get hurt and not be able to work, good luck getting the PD to pay for your injuries, let alone your own insurance(this being a barrroom brawl). Add in the fact that cops take care of their own(with a little creative report writing) and you have not improved your quality of life one bit. You can't provide for your family, you have pending charges, and now you have injuries which may or may not heal properly along with the requisite medical bills. All that when you could have been a good witness and assisted the prosecution in crushing this dirt bag. I will always observe and report first and as neccessary, engaging only when my well being or the well being of those I give a damn about is threatened.