Alliant Powder Muzzle Flash

[Cheapo]

I know from fairly recent personal experience that Alliant Power Pistol is on the bright side for muzzle flash (in .357 Mag., it *was* less than 296, but that's not saying much).

Anyone have personal experiences with new & old Unique, Herco, and any other Alliant powders other than Blue Dot and 2400. I've heard reports of impressive muzzle flash with both of those...

I'm most interested in .357 Magnum and .40 S&Weasel, in full-power (not dangerous) loads.

Thanks!

[George Helser]

Cheapo,

I have experience with Power Pistol in 9x19 & 45 ACP. It has a fairly large flash which is a very bright white.

Herco has a smaller flash and being a dark orange is less blinding.

Looking for low flash? I recently tested VV-N340 in 9x19 & 45 ACP full power loads. I could not believe the results from shooting at night. Flash is nearly zero! I estimated the dark orange flash to be 1/20th that of Herco (did not compare but probably 1/1000th of Powder Pistol).

VV-N340 gives very high performance in 9x19 & 45 ACP. Have not looked at the VV powders for .357 magnum and 40 S&W but recommend you investigate.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona

[jtduncan]

I know what you mean. I don't like the flash. But then again, some Hydashoks will give you some flash too.

BUT PP is getting me the performance I need. Tried slower low flash powders as well but when I need the velocity, it's Power Pistol to the rescue!

[saands]

Th VV N340 and N350 powders DO give lower flash signatures and they ALSO give the performance ... I just got a few pounds of VV and now I'm just using the remaining PowerPistol for the low-end reloads ... and I have been almost an exclusive Alliant user since 1988 (they were Hercules) ... I was impressed ... the only challenge is finding it! I get it from Midsouth Shooters' Supply ... no internet catalog, but they will quote you the price via e-mail.
Good Luck,
Saands

[chemical_grenadier]

True, that Alliant Power Pistol does give you more muzzle flash than VV N345, N350, or 3N37, but at the same time, a 4 lb keg of Power Pistol costs me less than 50 bucks, whereas the VV powders cost 20 bucks more for that amount.

The other thing about Power Pistol is that it makes a lot more noise than other powders. When I fire my Glock 17 with my own load (Remington 124 grain FMJ, 6.4 gr Power Pistol, COAL 1.15") there are some who think that I am firing 357 Sigs.

When I fire my Glock 23 (Rainier 165 grain TCJ, 6.6 gr Power Pistol, COAL 1.13") those same folks think I am firing my 10 mm.

[George Helser]

jtduncan,

In 9x19 & 45 ACP, Power Pistol gave far lower velocity and far greater flash than my loads in Herco or VV-N340.

chemical,
I am paying $20 per pound (plus tax) for VV powder vs $17 for other powders. I am using less VV powder per load than other powders.

In summary, I get high velocity, low fouling and nil flash with VV powder at no extra cost.
I think if VV hired a PR firm in the US they would greatly increase sales!

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona

[Cheapo]

Thanks for the info, George H.

With the VV powder at almost no flash and Herco about 20x as much, how large is the Herco flash (inches or cm, round or oval), and is it the same brightness center to edge? Dull orange or bright orange?

Any difference in these rough measurements between .45ACP loads and 9x19? I presume you were firing full-power loads.

Anyone have flash reports for Herco in .40 Sellout & Weasel, or in .357 Magnum?

[George Helser]

Cheapo,

The VV flash was a very dim hollow orange cylinder, like the illumination was only at the periphery of the exhaust.

In 9x19 the Herco flash was, at night, a dull orange ball about the size of an orange.

I was firing full power loads.

Using Herco powder, the flash was much bigger in 45 ACP compared to 9x19. That might be due to the lower pressure in 45 ACP. VV powder had nearly zero flash in both
caliber’s.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona

[Cheapo]

Edited to add big thanks to our man in Sunny Arizona.

So how come no one's making an add-on flashider for all these lightweight pistols that would not become Evil Assault Weapons ('94 stoopidlaw definition) with such an addition?

Gimme a flash hider (that workds!) and I'll just keep on using 296 and Power Pistol!

[Troy]

Perhaps because a FS sticking off the end of your handgun barrel would make it large and unwieldy, not to mention difficult to conceal?

VV powder costs more, but (at least with pistols) you'll use less powder per cartridge, so your cost per 1000 rounds is about the same. I'm phasing out my other powders and going with VV and surplus powders exclusively.

-Troy

[John Lawson]

I have had some traumatic increases in presure indications from VV loads that have been transported in a car trunk during very hot weather. My Alliant loads do not have this escalation level. Has anyone else noted this peculiarity?
Has anyone considered carrying VV loads to the range in an insulated box?

[WESHOOT2]

Must pipe in here: some powders (as noted here by you and others) change performance based on environment.

I use no VV powders in my business (but use some personally).



ps Anyone else remember when Frank James blew up a sub-gun and blamed it on VV powder?

[Cheapo]

By the way, oh ye knowledgable ones, anyone have muzzle flash reports for Hodgdon Universal (clays) in .40 with 180-gr bullets?

Thanks for the info, everyone!

Troy--the muzzle thing has been applied to compensators, too, but I see carry comps making a few inroads into the CCW world. Plus, some of us aren't CCW oriented and the dongle at the end of the barrel is not a problem.

Can a comp be designed for double-duty as a flashider too? Now THAT would be worth $79.95!

Edited to add:

Though I like the reports on V-V powders, I'm much more comfortable buying something made in the USA. It's a supply line thing that makes me nervous.

[Peter M. Eick]

Cheapo,

I think you would be very discourage to find out how many powders are made outside the US. I think (I am not in the reloading room right now) but most of the Hodgden powders are from Sweden (or is it Norway) and Australia. I believe Allient is importing some of their powders from Australia. and I think AA's are from Sweden also? Anyone have the straight scoop here? I know I have an article about this, but I just could find it on the drop of the hat.

On the universal, I found in my 40's that universal is pretty tame with only a mild flash, but I was shooting at dusk, so it may not be a fair comparison.

Hope this helps.

[Cheapo]

Peter, when you say the Universal loads were mild, do you mean the flash only? Or were the velocities less than expected as well?

If I use this in .357 Mag, I really want to bust 1400 fps using 125-gr JHPs out of a six-inch barrel. IDPA be damned, that's one of my DEFENSE guns!

[Peter M. Eick]

I checked my powder cans, looks like a lot of Eastern Europe and Australian powders but Allient seems to be US made.

Anyway, universal clays has a pretty mild flash (in my opinion) and the velocites are right where I expect them. If I were trying to push it in the 40's I would go for AA5 or AA7.

I really like universal out of 38 spec or 357 sig. Give that a try.

[Cheapo]

Yeah, I just tested Universal (5.5) with a 180-gr in .40 S&W and the flash was dull red and about 2 inches in diameter, extending forward in a taper for only about 3-4 inches.

Low enough flash for me.

Accuracy testing is next. Have no idea on the velocity and probably won't for several months (no chrono).

What kinds of speeds are attainable with Universal in the .357 Mag using 125-gr JHPs?

I may bend my bias for U.S. powders to include the Australians, despite their silly and counterproductive laws. Still seems a bit hypocritical of them--like all those Japanese gunmaking companies. Oh yeah, the didn't outlaw ALL the guns, just the good ones.

[WESHOOT2]

Think of Universal Clays like you do Unique (except skip the dirty smokey crappy-metering part) and figure out if Unique is the best choice for high-velocity loads.

After you ponder that start thinking about H110, W296, AA9, A2400.......

[Cheapo]

WeShoot2:

When I'm loading for deer hunting or other guaranteed to be daylight hours situations, I'll gladly use either 296 or H110. However, I am interested in using these next loads for threat elimination, not target illumination.

For my uses, I wish to have a muzzle velocity of between 1400 and 1450 fps using a 125-gr bullet, at 75 degrees, and still safe at 110 degrees. 296 does this, but it lights up the night with a yellowish-white (not whitish-yellow) flame that really burns the target's LAST location into your retina if it's anywhere near dark.

Now, since the Winchester data claims something like 1800 fps for that load (and at a full grain less than the latest Speer book, IIRC), and I get only 1425 fps, I'm really curious about other lower-flash powders like Herco or Universal, which advertise velocities over 1400 fps through realistic 6-inch barrels. Do they really get the advertised speeds?

Israeli powders do not interest me because of the high likelihood that their entire production might suddenly be needed for their national defense (or be suicide-bombed out of existence). I've already explained my reluctance to use Scandinavian powders.

[George Helser]

John Lawson & WESHOOT2,

I live in sunny Arizona where we have about 100 days a year at over 100F. With cloudless skys and around 2000’ above sea level cars do get VERY hot in the summer.

VV publishes data comparing pressure and velocity vs temperature. In a particular 9mm load, pressure increases 7% when the temperature increases from 70F to 126F. I don’t
think this is out of the ordinary.

However, I have been testing VV-N340 for only a few months. I will be sure to test my full power VV loads at high temperature to insure safety although with CCW my arm is unlikely to go far above body temperature. (It is too darn hot to carry IWB right after it comes from the glove box after exposure on a hot day!)

VV powder looks very promising for power, low residue and nearly zero flash.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona