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Old January 19, 2013, 10:55 PM   #1
SonOtheSouth
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Why the 180 grain is a bad choice for .40 S&W

http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm

I found this and was wondering what you all think... I just bought a crap ton of 180 grain .40 S&W, so please... say it aint so !
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Old January 19, 2013, 11:03 PM   #2
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I think it's not worth worrying about. With todays litigious society the ammo makers are not going to produce ammo that will easily grenade.

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Old January 19, 2013, 11:04 PM   #3
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My dad used to say opinions are like a certain part of our bodies, everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

I respect TLG. That said I've heard this story before. Plenty of shooters have been using 180 gr 40SW for years without issue. Personally I don't care for the recoil characteristics of the 165 gr 40SW. The 180 gr 40SW isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Shoot what you like best.
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Old January 19, 2013, 11:15 PM   #4
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With todays litigious society the ammo makers are not going to produce ammo that will easily grenade.
That was the whole point of the article. With 180's they have to purposely download to reduce the possibility of an overpressure load. Lighter bullets, according to the article, can be loaded to their full potential with less risk of a gun blowing up in your face.

I'm neither agreeing, nor disagreeing with the article. It is an interesting concept that may have some truth to it, but I'd need to see more evidence I no longer own a 40, after buying a 10mm I didn't see the point, but I did always felt the 165's were a better choice from the 40 when I owned one.
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Old January 19, 2013, 11:21 PM   #5
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IIRC, that's an old article from the height of the .40S&W 'kaboom' hysteria.
I think they are right about one thing, .40 is more efficient with 165's, but it's not dangerous with 180's.
I've loaded scads of 180s without any issue.
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Old January 20, 2013, 12:07 AM   #6
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With respect to the receiving end of the bullet, does anyone really think that a 15 grain difference on a .400" projectile is going to be noticed by the target/victim/bad guy? There will be pain, bleeding, tissue damage, and some shock. I doubt a little weight difference will be noticed.
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Old January 20, 2013, 02:26 AM   #7
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I have a couple of issues with some things on the page. Otherwise, he does make an interesting argument.
Quote:
Also, the 10mm was designed for a peak mean pressure higher than the .40 … which means the 10mm brass is engineered to handle greater pressure than the .40 case.
While it's true that the 10mm was designed for a higher peak pressure than the .40 S&W (37.5kPSI vs 35kPSI), it's not by a huge margin. But more to the point, 10mm brass is inherently weaker than .40 S&W brass, and that's due to the 10mm's insistence on a large pistol primer, the pocket of which eats up important case head real estate. Gonzo "blow 'em all up and learn from it" handloader and forum legend Clark has taken ridiculous .40 S&W brass loads further than he could push similar loads in 10mm brass. That primer makes a difference.
Quote:
As mentioned above, the .40S&W was never intended to be a high-pressure round like the .357 Magnum, 10mm, or 357SIG. In fact, the SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) specification for the .40S&W is the same as the 9mm spec (35kpsi).
Wow, tough argument. He claims that .40cal was never intended to be high-pressure at 35k, the same as 9mm, which -IS- high pressure, and same as .357 Magnum (also 35k) and just a blip below the 10mm and .357 Sig.
News: all of these are high pressure handgun rounds. If you want LOW PRESSURE handgun rounds, you are talking .38 Special, .32 S&W Long, .45 Auto. But SAAMI spec'd at 35kPSI max, which the .40 S&W is... is high pressure. There are a couple higher, but not many.
Quote:
The 165gr is really the optimum choice for .40S&W shooters. It tends to be more accurate, have greater muzzle energy and momentum, and it significantly reduces the dangers associated with possible bullet setback (a bullet can, through normal handling, seat itself more deeply just by being loaded into the chamber of a gun, etc).
I have to argue with his assertion that the 165gr slug greatly reduces the dangers associated with bullet setback.

In fact, I do agree there are SIGNIFICANT dangers with regard to bullet setback, and I also believe that unintended and/or unnoticed bullet setback is likely the leading cause of otherwise unexplained or "theorized" reasons for KB's, especially when they occur to a handloader.

His argument is that a shorter 165gr slug eats up less space -- which makes every tiny bit of unintended/unnoticed bullet setback a bit less dangerous. That certainly could be the case.

However, my assertion is that a shorter 165gr slug does precisely that: it offers MORE space inside that case, and much less resistance to bullet setback. Where as the longer 180gr slug is much more resistant to bullet setback because:
a) there's less room to move, powder pushing back from under the slug*
b) no matter what slug was originally loaded in that brass, reloading with a 180 is putting fat bullet shank deep in to the brass, resulting in more bullet pull and more case mouth tension, reducing the chance of un/un bullet setback.
(*as I understand, this is one method that handloaders use to safely address such concerns with the .357 Sig at the load bench)

I realize fully that I'm making theories and assumptions of my own, but that's just as I see it. My theories are backed by over 3,000 loaded and fired rounds of .40 S&W...and I've not yet loaded any bullet weight in .40 S&W except 180 grain.

And there's a WHOPPER that he never once mentions while he's quite quick to talk about the myriad of KB's in .40 S&W chambered pistols: The 10mm Auto that was the predecessor of the .40 S&W was a smaller, .40cal hole drilled through a fat .45-gun sized barrel with beefy steel surrounding the chamber and launched from .45cal frame sized handguns.

Smith & Wesson and Glock, when they hit the market with this new round delivered to the shooting world a new round... NOT with a .45-sized frame and utilizing a smaller .40cal hole through a larger .45cal barrel with fat steel around the chamber... they gave the world 9mm frame sizes with 9mm barrel sizes and LARGER holes bored through them resulting in less critical steel surrounding every part of the round. And they used the same 35kPSI max in the cartridge.

When they made a 10mm from .45-sized handguns, they made a smaller hole and upped the pressure. They did the opposite with .40 S&W, they kept the same (high) pressure and bored away more steel.

As I said up front, I do think he's put a lot of time and thought in to his argument and I gained something from reading it.
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Old January 20, 2013, 02:57 AM   #8
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180gr is fine in 40sw 200gr on the other hand is pretty dangerous surprised he doesnt mention that on his site.

I have shot many 1,000's of rounds of 180gr FMJ and JHP at all sort of velocities from 950fps to 1150fps all sorts of handloads and reloads with all sorts of brass and even wolff steel casings to no ill effects.

first batch of Federal 40sw brass was known to have thin webbing and when paired with poor chamber support would pop under the pressure.
avoid 40sw gun with poor chamber support.

some people use 40sw brass 200gr bullets and even 220gr bullets but they load them to 10mm lengths in performance 1911's that have full chamber support and ramped barrel with barrel free bore extended for loading long to no ill effects.
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Old January 20, 2013, 08:30 AM   #9
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As the article correctly stated, the 40 S&W was originally designed around a 180 gr. bullet @ ~950 fps

Compared to some of the lighter bullet loads, the standard 180 gr. may produce less recoil, advantageous for control / follow up shots especially out of compact pistols.

All of this data is based on an average of at least 5 shots from a Glock 27

Harder kicking 40 S&W loads:
Glock 27: Ranger T 165. @ 1,116 fps = PF 184
Glock 27: Speer Gold Dot 155 @ 1,171 fps = PF 182
Glock 27: Cor-Bon 135 JHP @ 1,332 fps = PF 180
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Softer" kicking 40 S&W loads:
Glock 27: Remington 180 HP @ 945 fps = PF 170
Glock 27: Remington 165 GS @ 1,018 fps = PF 168
Glock 27: Federal 180 gr. HST @ 930 fps = PF 167
Glock 27: Federal 155 gr. HS @ 1,072 fps = PF 166

PF = power factor and it is useful for quantifying recoil out of same size pistols.
Bullet weight x bullet speed / 1,000 = PF

I have shot plenty of 180 gr. 40 S&W ammo and never had a problem, have 180 gr. HST in my 27 now.
Regardless of bullet weight, don't chamber the same round multiple times - avoid set-back.
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Old January 20, 2013, 10:31 AM   #10
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Quote:
I just bought a crap ton of 180 grain .40 S&W, so please... say it aint so !
He is talking about:

Quote:
Constant reworking of the brass by reloaders
So have no fear. That said there were several factual errors on the site already addressed.

That short barrel that CDW4ME is talking about on the 27 won't offer the same velocity as a full size model.

The glock myth comes up quite a lot:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=409618

Hand loaded ammo is most often the cause of KB, in all kinds of firearms.
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Old January 20, 2013, 01:50 PM   #11
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The 180's are fine. I prefer the old BP load which was a 155 HST @1250 FPS, that is a hot load. The BP recently switched to a 180 grn HST so that the PC crowd can shoot them.
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Old January 20, 2013, 02:19 PM   #12
SonOtheSouth
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I appreciate the replies...
Being that my pistol is a XD Sub Compact, with a 3" barrel, am I losing velocity with 180 grain that I could make up with a lighter bullet weight ?
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Old January 20, 2013, 02:27 PM   #13
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Quote:
Being that my pistol is a XD Sub Compact, with a 3" barrel, am I losing velocity with 180 grain that I could make up with a lighter bullet weight ?
All else equal yes you could make up some.
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Old January 20, 2013, 02:34 PM   #14
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I like my 180 grain target loads.....they produce more of a shove, compared to a "snap" recoil on my 155's.

For HD, I run 180 grain Federal HST's.
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Old January 20, 2013, 03:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
Being that my pistol is a XD Sub Compact, with a 3" barrel, am I losing velocity with 180 grain that I could make up with a lighter bullet weight ?
Running a heavy bullet gives you less velocity across the board -- so loosing some velocity due to shorter barrel might be a smaller percentage over loosing more velocity with a lighter bullet.

I think you'd need to specifically chrono the loads you wish to compare from your own pistol. But even after you've done that and gotten raw numbers, what conclusions could you draw?

I think your best bet is to shoot what you might be considering and find which you like to shoot and not worry a heap about the rest. Or look at some real-world chrono results with popular ammo such as those done at BBTI.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/40sw.html
Good guys, very interesting testing and results.
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Old January 20, 2013, 05:56 PM   #16
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There is nothing wrong with 180 gr. I wish people would put mroe focus on shot placement than whats hitting the target.
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Old January 20, 2013, 06:54 PM   #17
SonOtheSouth
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I guess the fact that Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel for .40S&W only comes in 180 grain says a lot about the effectiveness of the 180 grain out of a short barrel.
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Old January 20, 2013, 06:59 PM   #18
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If you shoot a threat in the right place it isn't going to matter whether the bullet was 160 grain bullet or a 180 grain bullet, they won't know the difference.

Be more concerned with the type of bullet you keep loaded for defense than the weight of the bullet but you should be even more concerned with good shot placement because.
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Old January 20, 2013, 07:05 PM   #19
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This was a huge deal about 11 years ago. Heck a buddy of mine even said during his training to become a reserve sheriffs deputy, they used a shooting of a LEO as an example to blame the 180gr Hydra-shok. They said if the deputy had been loaded with the newly adopted 165gr Hydra-shoks his rounds would of expanded better in the perp. after passing through auto glass killing him rather than leaving him wounded, enabling him to return fire and kill the officer.

It was also said that the KB rate (in specifically in the G22 and G23) was increased by something like 92% by using 180 grain and heavier bullets, due to the "massive'' pressure increase from the (again specifically glock(s)) chamber pushing the bullet back after repeated reloading of the same round. And that in the glocks unsupported chamber, this problem would be cured by using lighter bullets.

I cant speak to the truth about all that...seems like bunk to me...But I will say the Glock, out of all guns I've owned and shot in 40 S&W...are the most inaccurate of all.
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Old January 20, 2013, 08:58 PM   #20
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^^^ Sounds like more of a Glock problem that a 40S&W. The cartridge was designed around a 180 gr bullet, I wouldn't worry about it.
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Old July 17, 2015, 07:42 PM   #21
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Updated this thread with some current data to keep it viable.
Federal HST 180 puts any doubts to rest. HST has passed every test I have seen with outstanding results. Modern day 180 grain bullets have come into their own in the 40S&W. It makes a great choice for woods use where you want heavy for caliber. These HST bullets look like expanding tarantulas.

Here just some tests of the Federal HST 180 grain in a 40 S&W.
http://youtu.be/UWy2AB_AQYo

Great even in short barrels.
http://youtu.be/OuQUyh00Db4

http://youtu.be/rAxmCixySeE

http://youtu.be/8TB4ueQ5sxQ

http://youtu.be/jH7KTx8LRPw
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Old July 17, 2015, 08:21 PM   #22
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HST in 9mm, .40, and .45 is all pretty much the same....bad ass. There is a lot of physics and research then went into that design.

I have never been one to get too hung up on bullet design believing that pretty much all the half decent hollow point ammo in any half decent caliber were fairly capable.

HST has sort of changed my mind in that I really believe that design is pretty amazing. Doesn't matter caliber, doesn't matter barriers it just punches through, mushrooms and stops at exactly the right depth. My hats off to those design guys.

We really have pretty much gotten to the point where caliber doesn't matter. Shoot what you like, what your competent with and caliber doesn't really matter besides cost/recoil/preference etc. Not that I even really believed a couple 10ths of an inch or oz of metal made a huge difference but today wow it really is I the statistical noise and comes down more to the ancillaries like hard barrier penetration or what holds velocity out of an itty bitty barrel.

I have some of the early boarder patrol 155 grain HST stuff and it's stout bout damn it's a heckofaroud
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Old July 17, 2015, 09:36 PM   #23
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The point of developing a handgun cartridge isn't to maximize velocity and energy, it's to accurately put a round on target and punch a hole deep enough to do considerable damage to vital tissues while expanding reliably to make the hole and the resulting damage greater.

In looking at the Federal Premium HST terminal ballistics chart, their 165-gr and 180-gr rounds have identical penetration depths in bare gel, but the 180-gr bullet, not surprisingly, expands more: the 180-gr round wins. Into gel set up to meet the IWBA heavy clothing standard, the 180-gr round beats the 165-gr round in both penetration and expansion.
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Old July 18, 2015, 06:48 AM   #24
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Quote:
* * * With todays litigious society the ammo makers are not going to produce ammo that will easily grenade.
Ah, contraer, mon fraier.

Ammo-makers have made 180gn .40S&W ammo that "Kaboomed!", as many documented accounts have shown. These have included both civilian & L.E users. Of course, there've been accounts of reloaders kabooming pistols with their .40 handloads too.

At least with factory .40 ammo, we are seeing less of these Kaboom-incidents today because ammo-makers, having accumulated more years of experience with the .40 cartridge, have developed alternative hybrid powders that work at lower pressures with 180gn projectiles but still yield decent velocities.

As well, they've finally come to accept the fact that the .40's shorten case-capacity means you cannot attain "hot rod" velocities as if it were a 10mm, especially with the 180gn bullets. If you want more velocity - safe velocity - you've got to drop down in bullet-weight, like into the 135-150gn range.

That's why - with one notable exception - no ammo company ever tried making .40 ammo using a bullet heavier than 180gns. The exception is McNett @ DT. Using his own hybrid propellants, he came out with a .40 load some years ago that launches Hornady's 200gn XTP-HP @ 1050fps. That was the first and only 200gn factory .40 load I'm aware of, since the cartridge's introduction in 1990.

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Old July 18, 2015, 08:44 AM   #25
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Deleted...

Can't believe I go sucked into a zombie thread. Shame on me
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