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August 26, 2008, 07:20 PM | #101 | ||||
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No one is advocating using this (a sound) as your sole means of defending yourself. I think people aren't really thinking rationally here. -I can already hear people typing : Crackheads, people hopped up on drugs blah blah blah; I'll come back to that. Quote:
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As far as crackheads and the like, the odds of coming up against someone who is so out of their mind on something they don't recognize the threat to their wellbeing, don't care, or think they're invincible you have to admit is reeeeal slim. I would bet the vast majority of people who break into houses don't get that high beforehand. Most breaking and entering is probably done by someone who is high, but not completely out of their mind. If you are that out of it, why would you break into a house? You are in no condition to steal stuff effectively. That aside, I've spent enough time around drugs and drug users to know even when you're really <messed - edited> up, you still don't want to get shot. So what if the guy smoked a bunch of meth, pcp and that weed dipped in embalming fluid (which I believe is a misnomer, it's really just pcp) and is in a murderous rage and also has a machine gun and is just waiting for the first sign of movement so he can blast away? Yeah, I guess you would have just given away your position and would now be gunned down before you could do anything, all because you tried to "intimidate him into submission" just by racking your shotgun. OK Unless they are there specifically to kill you, an intruder is probably going to run for the nearest exit after realizing they are about to get shot at with anything, much less with a shotgun. Even if they're there just to hurt someone, I'm betting they're out the door as fast as possible after that sound. This "tactic" really just boils down to if one would rather at least have the possibility of having the intruder leave without a real confrontation (thus not having to deal with the legal ramifications of having killed someone, not to mention having having to clean someones blood and other stuff that was inside them off their carpet, walls and furniture), or if they would rather just shoot and then deal with the results. I don't think anyone would really try to use this as their ultimate means of self defense - but it may save you from having to kill someone in your house. While it may (I think probably would) get you out of a situation without having to shoot (and it might not, so don't use a tape recorder) It is almost certainly not going to cause bullets to start flying your way due to giving away your position. Quote:
EDIT: on second thought I'm not sure how you meant this. You are probably actually right, but I get the feeling it's for a different reason. I bet most burglars would run as soon as any dog, be it a doberman or a chihuahua, alerted the homeowner to their presence. On the other hand, if you meant that anyone who would "grovel at the mere sound of a shotgun being racked" is a big <coward - edited>, then I stand by my eye roll. As far as Wildebees situation - man I feel for ya; You live in a completely different world than those of us in the US. I hope the stuff which you speak of never happens to you. South Africa is one of the places on my "You couldn't pay me enough to move there" list. Last edited by pax; August 27, 2008 at 10:27 AM. Reason: Cuss words. Please do not try to get around the filters. Thx. |
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August 27, 2008, 04:20 AM | #102 | |
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Threegun wrote:
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August 27, 2008, 06:39 AM | #103 | ||
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Mechanical failure is always possible but I have never had a problem with my pump shotgun to raise a concern. "Hollywood" someone? I'm not talking about racking the slide in front of the bad guy. Once they can see the weapon there is no need for noise. They will either run or fight or freeze. That choice determines the next action........either shoot or don't shoot. My personal experience suggests that the BG will stop the attack. In the limited times I would even conceder doing it the BG would still be at a great disadvantage. You seem to think that the BG is going to be a trained swat team member which if he is and alone he is still in serious danger facing down a shotgun armed homeowner hiding somewhere behind door number 3 in the dark and behind cover. In the real world he will probably be a drug addicted thug who will run at the sound of the shotguns action. If he continues through the door he will be shot without knowing were the shot came from. The only thing that changed is he had a warning not to continue and I had one less shell to fight with. BTW If I allow the intruder to enter my room before attempting to fire I also face increased risk.......gun could still malf, ammo could be bad etc. |
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August 27, 2008, 09:29 AM | #104 | |
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August 27, 2008, 09:59 AM | #105 |
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The greatest chance of racking failure probably is operator error. That is probably increased by stress as we know in every domain of human performance. It can be mitigated by training and practice under appropriate stress. David is well known to wield a wicked shotgun.
On the other hand, even the best fall to stress. Even top level competitors step up to line and futz it up. As far as sound effects - I prefer: Yoohoo, I have a gun and I've called the police. As compared to: Yoohoo, I'm racking my gun now and unloading it a touch. BG - what did you say - I can't hear. Could you do that again? OK - rack, rack. Racking a chambered gun to make a sound as a tactic - love it. That's why some nice FOF training that entails actual interaction with folks is an added nuance to sheer competition with no such interaction and a focus on gun mechanics as compared to the interactive gestalt. This thread will never die!
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August 27, 2008, 10:02 AM | #106 | |
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August 27, 2008, 10:29 AM | #107 |
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Pretty good chance that racking the shotgun would frighten an intruder.
What the intruder might do as a result of being frightened is anybody's guess. Never bluff. (And if you typically store the shotgun 'cruiser ready,' racking the shotgun is a necessary prelude to doing what needs to be done.) pax |
August 27, 2008, 10:56 AM | #108 | |
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August 27, 2008, 10:58 AM | #109 | |
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August 27, 2008, 11:27 AM | #110 |
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I guess I'm just a worry wort. I keep all firearms that are out of the safe topped off and ready for use with the fewest possibly steps required. The exceptions are firearms being transported to the range. I fear that I would give the BG no warning and simply attempt to remove his head or a large portion of his torso. But that's just me.
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August 27, 2008, 11:39 AM | #111 |
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My go to 'home/zombie gun' is my AR, David. With a 20 round mag of Hornaday Tap. The shotgun is in the closet unloaded. The AR isn't chambered as the first gun for quick defense is a Glock. If the situation warrants, I retrieve the AR and chamber it.
If I have to chamber the AR, I will yell - Yoohoo - at the miscreant. Not wanting to start the great AR vs. shotgun debate. I would be perfectly happy to have the shotgun as the home long gun but prefer the AR. BTW, in Karl Rehn's AT class, we practiced hunkering down and the strong verbal challenge. Didn't really say Yoohoo. We did a version of what Shawn as posted - I have a gun, police called - get out of house. Over and over with the last phrase with the phone off the hook. That assumes we had time for all that, having heard a BG in the house. Interestingly, some folks who decided to 'clear' - got ambushed and knocked on their butt.
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August 27, 2008, 12:09 PM | #112 | |||
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August 27, 2008, 04:56 PM | #113 |
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Glenn, An AR-15/Glock man. Never would have figured it. I figured you for a side by side shotty and a single action army LOL.
DA, If you knew someone has entered your home and was now attempting to enter your bedroom would you re rack the slide if the verbal command, get the heck out I'm armed, failed? I'm assuming that you aren't going to wait until the bad guy gets to your room to charge the shotgun. |
August 27, 2008, 08:26 PM | #114 | |
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August 28, 2008, 04:40 AM | #115 |
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It doesn't matter if the noise doesn't work because the BG is on drugs or whatever as you still have arguably the most effective close up weapon available.
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August 28, 2008, 09:16 AM | #116 |
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JAE,
Boy, this thread has some legs! I did not expect it to go 5 pages. You said “I know it's good marketing, but following the "logic" we've all been fed too many times to count, no one needs to buy any more shotguns. All we need are recordings of the pump action shotguns being racked. Let's just debunk this bull right here. A perp that will grovel at the mere sound of a shotgun being racked probably can be chased off by a poodle.” And enough folks have given responses to your bait, including myself. There are other parts of your original post that I would like to respond to. You said “I personally would rather have a high powered semi-auto rifle myself, if I'm trained on it. Otherwise, I would much rather defend myself with a 1911 or a revolver.” So really much of your ilk at racking a shotgun is that you prefer another weapon for self defense. OK I get it. Does that in some way diminish the effectiveness of a shotgun simply because of (in your words) folklore, I think not! I believe it is the best close range weapon that we have. Now, I am well trained in its use, confident in its application, and have a combat history with scatterguns. That does make a difference! I suggest that you are giving up a great deal of defensive strength by choosing a handgun over a scattergun simply because of your admitted lack of training. GET TRAINED, get familiar with this weapon and then you can make an objective decision. You suggest that rifles and scatterguns requiring operator training to be useful as defensive tools, I agree. Further and something you did not mention is that handguns also require operator training to be useful. As a matter of fact every part of a defensive plan needs education, training and practice to BE USEFUL AND EFFECTIVE. So this on its face value does not exclude the scattergun as a primary and effective weapon for personal defense. As I stated in my first post, the racking of a shotgun does draw my full attention. I do not know if it would cause a predator to flee my home, if it does so much the better. My point was that pumping the action reward and forward on a pump shotgun is required to chamber a round into battery. Whether that action has mythical properties or not is in debate, however, “it is, what it is” the act of preparing the weapon to fight. Finally there is some good to come from this thread; Some of our thoughts around “how to defend” our homes in this thread are different and that is exactly right. There are several distinct defense profiles that are common to home defense. That said, some of our disagreement is due to not defining which profile of home defense we are using and tells me that a thread needs to be started defining them. Now to add some more legs to this thread; 1st - Some of you continue to generate the MYTH that you can rack-up (load into battery from the tube magazine) your pump scattergun quietly in some “stealth” mode. For 870, 1300, 500 series shotguns this is a FALSE AND DANGEROUS assumption. The # 1 operator error for these guns is failure to drive the shell stops open and allow a round to exit onto the carrier (short stroke) the #2 error is not fully engaging the bolt (locking Block not fully engaged in shoulder extension) into battery. These conditions are greatly affected by how hard you apply rearward and forward energy to the forend. As one Remington factory armorer is fond of saying, it takes brute force to drive the working parts out of the way, and then it takes more brute force to drive the working parts back into battery. This is not a warm fuzzy, touch type of operation, THIS IS A SLAM THE FOREND BACK AND SLAM THE FOREND FORWARD, with force of will and arm. It is a noisy robust operation. Please help me stop this myth, if not, I will get smarter the longer you do this and you will someday experience a type 1 or 2 operator error. 2nd – Some of you STILL assert that you store your scatterguns in condition 1, what can I do to convince you that this is folly. Every year we have injury and death due to scatterguns firing due to bumps, jars, or drops. This is not conjecture this is fact supported by hunting accident stats. Scattergun Bob says, any shotgun that has a safety that does not lock the sear needs to have an empty chamber BEFORE it leaves you hands. Trust that the folks who came up with “cruiser ready” did so because of blood on the ground. To long term store your scattergun in condition 1 is unsafe and in my option unprofessional. To advocate this type of storage on this forum presents a ethical issue that I for one will always speak against. No matter what the activity, if it is worth doing, it is worth doing safely. "Sometimes it is reasonable to hunker down in your home and hope that you are not the focus of the super predator's work this night. On those nights the comfort of a good Scattergun across your lap, charged with the right loads can make a true difference and bring the light of morning quicker." Good Luck & Be Safe
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August 28, 2008, 09:19 AM | #117 | |
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August 28, 2008, 09:26 AM | #118 | |
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August 28, 2008, 09:34 AM | #119 |
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For me if I hear a window break or a door get breached on the other side of my home I'm not going to wait until the BG gets to my bedroom to charge the shotgun. I'm going to expect my bedroom door get kicked in however if the bad guy tests the knob I just don't see how a re rack would harm anything especially if the verbal commands fail.
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August 28, 2008, 09:34 AM | #120 | |||
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What do you think, guys - is it time to put this one to bed? pax |
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August 28, 2008, 09:39 AM | #121 | |
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counter-counter .... Yes. Please put it out of its misery.
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August 28, 2008, 09:49 AM | #122 |
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Until the next time it is asked. On the USS Enterprise, Worf is debating with Data on whether one should rack their phaser and call a BG a Venusian Blikfuisl Lipnocker when telling them to FREEZE!
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August 28, 2008, 10:08 AM | #123 |
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Thanks for the good discussion, everyone.
pax |
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