223/556 powders

[308Loader]

223/556 powders

Hello again, I've got some questions reguarding powders for the 223/556. I've been using BLC2 and IMR 4895 with some good results in my 16” AR chambered in 556 with 1-9 twist, using 52gr to 62gr bullets. Im working on a new build that will have a PSA 20” 1-7 twist. So whith that I have been thinking about a load for 20” vs 16”. The 20” should yeald higher volicitys correct? This should have nothing to do with the chamber pressure, just longer barrel time / burn time? I read some where that blc2 can cause barrel ringing in longer barrels?

Compatible powders I have on hand:

BLC2
IMR 4895
IMR 4064
CFE 223, havent tried this one yet

Thoughts?

[Ralph Allen]

I use Hodgdon H-322 and H-335.
Ralph

[std7mag]

If your just popping off a bunh of rounds at short range CFE223 will get the job done, but i wouldn't recommend more than a medium load. It has been known to have temp instability.
Also not good for precision work at longer range.
The 4895 has been decent in my wifes bolt rifle.
I however have settled on Power Pro 2000 with 69gr MatchKings.

[hdwhit]

Of the powders you have, I have used IMR-4064 to good effect on a bolt action rifle chambered in 223.

Other powders I have used in 223 have been IMR-4198, IMR-3031, and Winchester 748.

[Crankylove]

I’ve done W748, Varget, 4064, and H335.

Haven’t really found a favorite yet, they’ve all got the job done with no issues.

[Unclenick]

BL-C(2) is canister grade WC846, a powder developed for 7.62 ball ammunition. H335 is canister grade WC844, a faster version (lower level of deterrent coating) of WC846 that was adopted for 5.56 ball, as WC846 proved too slow for best operation and the faster version has less fouling with the lighter bullets. BL-C(2) may be fine with the 62-grain bullet (I've not tried that, but I know it's fine with a 77-grain bullet), but with a 52-grain bullet, I've seen some secondary spikes with it like the ones shown in the strain gauge pressure traces below. The 2230 and 4895 have close to the same burn rate in QuickLOAD's database, and BL-C(2) is just slightly slower. The bullet here is even lighter than 52 grains, which exaggerates the size of the secondary spike. But there has been barrel ringing caused by these spikes, so I try to avoid pushing powders that are on the slow end for the weight of the bullet. (These spikes are eliminated either by going to a faster powder or to a heavier bullet.)

Reproduced with permission from Jim Ristow at shootingsoftware.com:


The 7" twist will let you shoot longer, heavier bullets easily. They won't mind the slow powders at all.

[Metal god]

BLC2 & CFE-223 are close to the same burn rate in relation to IMR 4895/4064

So I'd say BLC2 & CFE-223 use the heavier bullets like 68/69gr and 75/77gr . You will also get better velocities with those powders and the heavier bullets then you will with the 4895 & 4064 . Although you will get or at least should get very good accuracy with the heavy bullets and those IMR powders as well . I use both IMR 4064 and 4895 with 69gr and 77gr smk . Shooting them out of multiple AR rifles with both 1-8 and 1-7 twist rates but I don't get top velocities with those powders . I do how ever get some of my best groups .

H-335 works great for me with bullets up to 62gr , IMR 8208xbr is another powder I have got good results with , with bullet weights from 55gr thru 77gr but again I don't get top velocities with it .

If heavy bullets and top velocity is your goal then Varget & CFE-223 are my choices with a close second to N-140 & BLC2 .

I don't disagree that CFE-223 may have some temp stability issues . I've not ran it over a chrono enough to say for sure but did get some velocity swings on days where the temp was 20* different . Nothing huge but it was there and again I've not run it over a chrono all that much .

[std7mag]

MetalGod,
Run 10 rounds with CFE223 over your chrono and keep an eye on ES/DS.

Couldn't get it to settle down, hence why i don't use it.

[Bfglowkey]

Same, CFE made good velocities but not consistent. H335 and Varget are great with my shorter barrel. Bolt only. About to give xbr a whirl

[Charlie98]

Another vote for H335, it's about all I've ever used up to 69grn bullets. I have tried IMR4895 and IMR4064, but found trying to cram all that stick powder in that tiny case a little tedious.

[Mike38]

CFE223 and IMR3031 are my go to powders for .223.

[308Loader]

I will admit I should have done my homework BEFORE buying the CFE 223. My local fleet and farm had it on sale, saved like 5 bucks on a # vs the big chain store. I have since done my reading on it, lots have reported the temp stability issue. Here in Minnesota temps swing from -30f - +100f depending on the time of year. If a 10 round rapid fire string will throw it noticeably off, this could be a problem for a load developed in December and shot in July correct? This year is the first I've had a chronograph, so I don't have much data yet on other powders or even much experience with these things so I guess I don't yet know. Sounds like December's higher velocity node would be overpressure KA-BOOM in July or just a big shift in POI?

Goal is first for accuracy, my range only goes out to 200m. Second goal for this build would be p-dogs at similar range.

"IMR4895 and IMR4064, but found trying to cram all that stick powder in that tiny case a little tedious."

I do concur. but if that's what needs to be done, so be it.

lastly, am I correct in assuming the higher velocity that can be achieved is due to longer barrel (16" vs 20" AR)?

[308Loader]

Thank you nick, that is what I was referring to. So with say, 62gr and up I should be safe in 20"? Would cfe and lighter bullets have same effect as the blc?


Thanks for the input all.

[Metal god]

, am I correct in assuming the higher velocity that can be achieved is due to longer barrel (16" vs 20" AR)?

Yes and no . Yes the longer the barrel the higher the velocity will likely be . How ever in general the faster the burn rate is for a given powder to cartridge type the lower average velocities you will generally get all other things being equal . This is especially true when running fast for cartridge powders with heavy for cartridge bullets . The powder wants to expand faster then the heavy bullet can get out of it's way so you can't use enough fast powder to push the heavy bullets as fast as they can be pushed with a slower powder .


Uncle nick can address this better but the barrel ringing problem is caused by the opposite effect . That is the lighter bullets out running the slower powders at first then later down the barrel the powder pressure catches back up to the bullet creating that second pressure spike as it runs into the base of the bullet .

Burn rate chart
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...rn-rate-chart/

So faster powders for lighter bullets and slower powders for heavier bullets is what creates optimal results depending on what your definition of optimal is . Also if you are loading on a single stage press and manually poor the powder into the case . A 4" or 6" drop tube/funnel will allow those stick powders to settle into the case better allowing you to seat the bullets with a little less compression .

I use this one when loading IMR-4064 & 4895 into 223/5.56 cases . It's not much but I don't need much to get the added room I need .
https://www.brownells.com/reloading/...prod33958.aspx

Or if you really want to step up your game
https://www.buffaloarms.com/powder-h...-tubes-funnels

[308Loader]

thanks metal god, that makes sense.

[308Loader]

New upper came yesterday, shot a hodgepodge of ammo and bullet weights through it today. Just quick sight in and function testing. I need a grin-ectomy after shooting . @25yrds she seemed to like anything I fed her, I know not a real test of anything. Was shocked to find that the 52gr bullets actually gave me a great group (holes in holes) with 1-7 twist. Shot 52rg hpbt-55gr FMJ-62gr FMJ- 69gr HPBT-75gr HPBT. mix of factory and handloads. With the PPU 75gr HPBT 2 three shot groups I noticed 2nd shot flyer, 3rd shot right on 1st.

any who... just want to be sure I understand before I hit the bench in the morning. Best bet with available powders according to chart would be IMR 4895 for the 52-55gr and blc2 for the 62-75gr?

[Mobuck]

For 55 grain and under with a 16" barrel, H335/X-terminator/AA2230 burn rate powders are fine. The faster powders will give optimum velocities w/o exacerbating over-gassing with carbine gas systems. They also give good load density.

[2ndtimer]

There are a lot of good powders for the .223/5.56. While the 4 listed by the OP will work, I would not consider any of them to be potentially optimal for his uses. (Although each rifle is different, and it is possible that his particular rifle may actually prefer one of the powders listed.)
For all around useage, ease of loading, accuracy and velocity, I have selected Ramshot TAC. It meters great, shoots clean, works well with bullets from 40 gr through 69 gr ( I have just started playing with some 77 gr bullets), and seems relatively temperature insensitive. Plus, right now, Powder Valley has it on sale for a great price! My "back up" powders are IMR-8208XBR, and Accurate 2015. Both of which have given decent results as well.
https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/product/ramshot-tac/

[Unclenick]

Differences in barrel length won't cause powder velocity ranking to change until the barrel is very short indeed, though the slower powders will be producing a lot bigger fireball before you get that short. I found (QuickLOAD) 7 inches for 30 cal barrels before which powder produced the greatest velocity saw a change in order. In other words, the powder that produced the highest velocity in a 24-inch barrel also produced the highest velocity in a 16-inch or even in a 9-inch barrel. Below that, the differences got closer and at around 7 inches the powder that was fastest in a 24-inch tube was no longer fastest overall and a little bit quicker power was. I'll have to run that again for the .223 but can think of no reason it would be different.

That said, shorter barrels produce less velocity with all powders than longer ones do. This table (use the medium power column for 223) will get you in the ballpark of the velocity difference to expect with each load.



I have not measured pressures for the powders you mention for the secondary spike with a 62-grain bullet on my Pressure Trace. Our range does not allow AP bullets, so I'll have to get some Berger 62's or something similar to measure that, but I am going to guess that it's OK, but no guarantees. I do know the 69's are fine with those powders.

[RSKENT]

308 Loader:

With 52 grain bullets the best for me has been 335. With heavier bullets, Varget.

With your new 20” 1-7 you might want to try 69 grain bullets over Tac. My favorite.

[mgulino]

H335 with 55 gr FMJ projectiles works fine for me out of a bolt gun with a 22" barrel.

[Bayou]

Has anyone here used SMP-735 powder for 223? If so, how does it perform for you?

Bayou

[603Country]

Over the years I’ve had a 223, I’ve used Varget, IMR3031, IMR4064, H335, AA2230, and BL-C(2). Varget shot real well with 55 gr Noslers, but I got tired of the hassle of dealing with full cases. AA2230 worked great with 65 gr Sierra GK. But these days, I just use H335. Very accurate under 40 gr Noslers, 55 gr Sierra and Nosler, 60 gr Partitions, and 65 gr Gamekings. Quite a muzzle flash when I shoot the 40’s in my 20 inch barrel.

[308Loader]

I haven't tried H335 yet. From the responses it seems to be the favorite in 556/223 cartage. Varget seems to be a close second. I also load .308 as you might guess, I have also heard varget is a good powder for that cal. One powder for two cartage's would be nice.


Thanks again for the responses, I appreciate the input.

[Charlie98]

I haven't tried H335 yet. From the responses it seems to be the favorite in 556/223 cartage. Varget seems to be a close second. I also load .308 as you might guess, I have also heard varget is a good powder for that cal. One powder for two cartage's would be nice.

Be careful with trying to make it too simple. I used to do that... but found some performance and accuracy differences with different rifles of the same cartridge (namely, .308.) As it turns out, I use H335 for 5.56mm... and 3 different powders for my 3 different .308's, mostly because I use 3 different bullets between the 3 rifles. Not saying one powder wouldn't work, but you might be leaving something on the table.