357 lever gun recipes

[Bucksnort1]

In my previous thread about my new Rossi .357 and load data, Ratshooter posted the following.

With published data and factory loads you will already get around 400fps more velocity than from a handgun. How much more power do you need?

My Sierra IV book has a section for 357 rifle data and some other calibers. I don't see the 400 fps increase. For example, for a 357 magnum rifle, using a 125 grain JHC bullet with 7.5 grains of W231, 1,500 fps can be obtained.

In the same manual under 357 handguns, with the same bullet and powder, the starting grains are 8.1 with 1,200 fps.

Huh?

What am I missing? Is this attributable to the cylinder gap in the revolver?

What happened to the 400 fps?

[NoSecondBest]

Go with the loading manual for info. Anybody can say anything and that doesn't make it so. Remember, this is the internet.

[Bucksnort1]

NoSecondBest, roger that but I'm still curious about the difference in velocity between the two recipes.

[Dred]

Speaking to the parameters rather than the question, but ...

I ran Federal, 158gr, JSP 357mag from a 4" Dan Wesson revolver and an 18.5" Marlin 1894CS yesterday. The revolver pushed it at 1200fps. The lever gun pushed it at 1800fps. These were measured with a Labradar and I was very surprised to see the 50% velocity gain. The measurements were from the same ammo box and consistent across 6 measured shots from each.

Sent from my Lenovo YT3-X90F using Tapatalk

[Bucksnort1]

The Sierra book shows a 158 grain JHC, for handgun, with 7.7 grains of Unique coming out at 1,050 fps and for rifle, the same powder and bullet with 7.1 grains increases to 1,300 fps so I guess it depends on the bullet and recipe.

[NoSecondBest]

The bullet in the rifle has two things going for it: one is the lack of cylinder gap and the other is the time in the barrel. The bullet in the rifle continues to accelerate with some slower burning powders where in the revolver that large corona/flame ball you see coming out of the end is wasted energy no longer pushing the bullet.

[stagpanther]

The bullet in the rifle has two things going for it: one is the lack of cylinder gap and the other is the time in the barrel. The bullet in the rifle continues to accelerate with some slower burning powders where in the revolver that large corona/flame ball you see coming out of the end is wasted energy no longer pushing the bullet.

^^^^^this (though lil'gun can make some great fireballs out of my 16" lever carbine)

[NoSecondBest]

though lil'gun can make some great fireballs out of my 16" lever carbine

I always liked firing off a cylinder full well after dark.

[ligonierbill]

Bucksnort, you're looking at loads for some fairly fast pistol powders. Nice for relatively light loads and economy of powder, but you should look at something like H110 or AA#9. These slower powders will certainly show their stuff in a rifle barrel.

I don't have a .357 Mag rifle, but here is a .44 Mag comparison:

240 Hornady XTP over H110 from a 7 1/2" Ruger Redhawk goes 1,454 avg.
Exact same load from a 22" Handi Rifle goes 1,852.

[Bucksnort1]

Second Best,

I understand about barrel length and have for a long time.

So here is my basic question. Am I good to go with this lever gun with handgun and rifle data?

Second Best, just after I began loading, I loaded for my S&W 6" barrel .357. The first time I fired my loads in this gun, it was at dusk. I was a bit scared and concerned because I had no idea so much flame came from the muzzle of that gun. I checked cases for signs of too much pressure but found none. I did not fire any more of those loads until I went home, pulled a few bullets and checked powder charges. All was ok.

[Nick_C_S]

I'm guessing this thread will be moved to the reloading section.

We may be overthinking this a bit. Both Speer and Hornady manuals have the same load data for revolver and lever rifle. Only the velocity results are different (due to different test gun, of course).

Rifles have a tremendous advantage due to barrel length. To make the most out of the longer barrel, slower propellants are in order. But that's just a basic rule. Practical application comes into play.

Terminal performance is also a factor. Most hollowpoint bullets will over-expand and even fragment if they strike a target with excessive velocity. Expansion becomes explosion. Most revolver (intended) hollowpoints are designed for the 1000 to 1400 f/s neighborhood. If your ammo is exceeding that with a rifle, then a softpoint profile may be in order. Of course, if you're just punching holes in paper, then velocity is not really of consideration.

Personally, I load for my revolvers. My lever actions will digest them just fine. If I did that in reverse, the same wouldn't apply.

[ThomasT]

In my previous thread about my new Rossi .357 and load data, Ratshooter posted the following.

With published data and factory loads you will already get around 400fps more velocity than from a handgun. How much more power do you need?

My Sierra IV book has a section for 357 rifle data and some other calibers. I don't see the 400 fps increase. For example, for a 357 magnum rifle, using a 125 grain JHC bullet with 7.5 grains of W231, 1,500 fps can be obtained.

In the same manual under 357 handguns, with the same bullet and powder, the starting grains are 8.1 with 1,200 fps.

Huh?

What am I missing? Is this attributable to the cylinder gap in the revolver?

What happened to the 400 fps?

I will tell you what happened to the 400fps difference. You are using the wrong powder. What manual are you using? Does it show other powders besides 231 and Unique? Those will work in a 357 case but they are not magnum powders.

I looked up a few loads for you in my Speer #14 manual.

158gr bullet with H110 15.5grs shows 1648fps from a rifle and 1217 from a 6" revolver for a 431fps gain from the rifle.

Same bullet Viht N110 15grs 1738fps and 1253 from a 6" revolver for a 485fps difference.

125gr bullet with 20.3grs 296 for 2125 from the rifle and 1336 from the revolver for 789fps difference.

Speer 110gr bullet with 21.5grs Viht N110 for 2467fps from the rifle and 1693 from the revolver for a 774fps difference.

So there is your 400+ FPS difference. Get a real loading manual and some magnum powders and you will get the velocities I told you you would get.

Go with the loading manual for info. Anybody can say anything and that doesn't make it so. Remember, this is the internet.

Nosecondbest you may want to do a little research yourself before you attack me or my post because its obvious you have no idea what you are talking about.

[tlm225]

W-231 while excellent ( and my preferred powder) for low to midrange loads, is not an appropriate powder to achieve maximum velocity out of either a handgun or rifle due to it's relatively fast burn rate. To achieve peak performance you need to use a slower burning powder such as H110/W296, A2400, 300MP, or Lil Gun.

[COSteve]

tlm225's post is spot on. The right powder for a pistol isn't the right one for a rifle. I've been handloading and shooting 357mag for both pistol and rifle since 2009, and the magnum powders like H110 / 296 or Lil'Gun will give you velocity increases in rifle length barrels while pistol powders like Unique won't. I loaded H110 under 158grn bullets for years with great results out of both my Rossi 20" carbine and 24" rifle until recently when I switched to Lil'Gun to lower the peak pressure and reduce the wear and tear on the brass.

My 158grn Zero JSP bullets over a max charge of H110 produced loads as high as 1,976fps in my 24" rifle and 1,941fps in my carbine. However, H110 is a bit hard on the brass with it's high 35,000psi peak pressure. My brass took a beating with heavy stress so, recently I decided to give Lil'Gun a go. It produces nearly the same velocities in my leverguns as H110 but with significantly lower peak pressures so the brass is much happier now.

As to the 400fps differences between a pistol and rifle, yes, I got those with 16.5grn loads of H110 under a 158grn bullet producing 1,822fps in my 24" Rossi (1,789fps in my carbine) while producing 1,382fps in my 7.5" SA Cavalry pistol. BTW, I shoot 158grn exclusively in both my pistol and rifles as I like the longer range performance of the heavier bullet. For instance, I set up my 24" Rossi rifle with a target tang sight and Lyman Globe front sight to shoot it at steel plates at 300yds. Pretty good for a pistol bullet.

[JRR]

I have a Rossi 357 with the 20" barrel. With the slow rifling used in Rossi's, the 140gr. bullets, either with jackets or lead are the most accurate and fast to 100 yards. With lead bullets, gas checks are very helpful in preventing barrel leading. It's quite easy to achieve 1800-1950 fps with powders like H110, N110, Lil Gun and others.

[kraigwy]

I us in my Marlin the same load as I use in my revolvers. 13 gr 2400 pushing a 158 LSWC


That load has been working great for me for well over 40 years. See no reason to change it.

[44 AMP]

The "go to" powder for magnum level loads in .357 for generations has been 2400. And it does great work in carbine and rifle length tubes too.

As others pointed out, the small velocity difference you are seeing in those particular loads are due to the fast powder. 231 is a great powder for small capacity cases and barrels less than 10". Its gain from longer barrels is proportionally less than slower burning powders.

296/h110 and AA#9 are good for top end loads as well. Note that these powders don't perform as well in light charges and short barrels. Even 4" is too sort for real efficiency with the slow powders. But, get to 6" and you've got something, and above 6" you get more and more.

Be aware that the heavy loads where the slow powders do their best work are NOT suitable for all guns chambered in .357 Magnum. And sometimes its not just the small light guns!

some time back, a friend brought over a couple .357s and a box of ammo, 125gr JHP and a case full of 2400. It was a load listed in his Speer manual, and not the max, either, but up there...

I added a couple of my .357s and the chronograph. The guns were S&W M19, 6", S&W M28, 6", Desert Eagle 6" and Marlin 1894 carbine, 18.5"

the first gun shot was the M19, and the shooter doubled the gun. TO this day, I don't know just HOW he did it, but he fired 2 shots not the 1 intended. The chrony said 1620fps!
At that point we decided to discontinue shooting the M19 with that ammo. The four unfired rounds fell right out, but the two fired cases could not be extracted by hand, and had to be driven out of the cylinder with a rod and hammer!!

SAME ammo, M28, six shots fired normally, cases ejected by hand normally after a slight resistance. Chrony say 1670fps.

Same ammo out of the (nominally) 6" barrel of the Desert Eagle. (And that DE also had the polygonal rifling). Full magazine fired, function normal and flawless. Chrony reading 1720fps!!

Same ammo fired through the Marlin carbine, clocked 2200fps.

With the right powder you get a significant gain from the rifle/carbine barrel length, possibly as much as 50%. With the "wrong" powder you do get an increase but its only a fraction of the increase you get with the right powder.

Fast burning powders are not the right ones for max velocity in longer barrels, they simply "top out" too soon.

If you're a car guy, think of it in terms of rear end gear ratios. A 4:11 gear ratio is really fast off the line but has a lower max top speed than a 3:86 or something like that. Back in the 70s, a friend had a tricked out El Camino, with a 327 Corvette engine and a 4:11 rear end. That was one quick car. Nothing could touch it in light to light street racing and it was very fast in the Quarter Mile. But on the highway or long track its top speed was in the 90s, and my 1960 Desoto (totally stock, and with a 5000lb registered curb weight) would eventually catch him, and leave him behind...

Like my old Desoto, the slow burning powders take more time (barrel length) to get there, but when they get there they are significantly faster than the "quick" powders which reach their peak pressure sooner.

[stagpanther]

For "cross-over" cartridges to be used in both revolvers and lever guns--H110/W296 has always given me best results in my 41 and 44 mag revolvers (which have 6" or more barrels) and levers in terms of energy-to-distance (even if not completely optimal for either).

[NoSecondBest]

Nosecondbest you may want to do a little research yourself before you attack me or my post because its obvious you have no idea what you are talking about.

It's not an attack, it's just good advice. No one should be getting loads off the internet unless the person providing them references the source. What they do personally isn't to be taken and used if it doesn't reference a reliable source. That's just common sense. Do I know what I'm doing? I've been shooting .357mag and .357max in many handguns and rifles for well over forty years. I own several rifles in those calibers and numerous handguns. If anyone needs loading data for those calibers in a rifle I'd suggest getting a copy of the Lyman 50th Edition. They have sections dedicated to .357mag in revolver, TC/Encore single shot, and rifle. That's a reliable source and a good place to look up loads to try. Nothing personal my friend, but safety is primary and nothing beats a referenced, reliable source.

[Bucksnort1]

Staff, I did not intend for this thread to become a reloading situation but if you want to move it, that's your choice. I'm good with it.

Ratshooter, I'm referencing Sierra's Fourth edition for the 231 and Unique.

[ThomasT]

It's not an attack, it's just good advice. No one should be getting loads off the internet unless the person providing them references the source. What they do personally isn't to be taken and used if it doesn't reference a reliable source. That's just common sense. Do I know what I'm doing? I've been shooting .357mag and .357max in many handguns and rifles for well over forty years. I own several rifles in those calibers and numerous handguns. If anyone needs loading data for those calibers in a rifle I'd suggest getting a copy of the Lyman 50th Edition. They have sections dedicated to .357mag in revolver, TC/Encore single shot, and rifle. That's a reliable source and a good place to look up loads to try. Nothing personal my friend, but safety is primary and nothing beats a referenced, reliable source.

Fair enough. I didn't list loads in my original post because I like for people to look up their own data. I never expected the OP to look up data for midrange loads and thought he would get the 400fps advantage I spoke of. The Sierra manual he used should show the loads with magnum powders.

And like you I have been shooting 357 mag in rifles and handguns for decades and of all the 80+ guns I own my 357 Marlin is my most favorite. If I had to grab one gun and run it would be my choice first and foremost. So no problems here.

To the OP. I have tried many of the magnum powders in the 357 and 44 mag guns but I always come back to Alliant 2400 powder. It is the one I get the most consistent accuracy from with magnum loads. There are newer magnum powders I haven't tried that may be even better but its unlikely I will ever get around to trying them. I have so much powder on hand now I just don't need anymore sitting around.

My favorite midrange 357 load is 6.6grs of Unique with a hardcast 158gr lead bullet. I shoot that load in both revolvers and and rifle. But I don't expect a big jump in velocity from the rifle over the handgun. Its easy on powder and brass. Now I have listed a load on the internet but I feel safe in doing so since its right out of a loading manual and I have been shooting it for well over 25 years without problems.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by Bucksnort1

So here is my basic question. Am I good to go with this lever gun with handgun and rifle data?

You are reloading a cartridge, not a rifle or a handgun. The cartridge is designed around it's SAAMI parameters. Both platforms are proofed around the same cartridge. While the platforms may change, the cartridge does not. Shooting it in a handgun or a rifle/carbine makes no difference other than the increase in velocity from the longer pipe. Ammo manufacturers do not differentiate, why should you. Would you reload differently for a revolver with a 18" barrel over a carbine with a 18" barrel?

[BBarn]

I don't have the Sierra IV manual, but in a later manual they say the difference in loading data between revolver and rifle data is due to the revolver cylinder gap. In some instances the cylinder gap allows for a slightly higher powder charge.

For the 357 Magnum, SAAMI provides specs for both vented and non-vented test barrels.

[44 AMP]

A totally different point, which I forgot to mention earlier, when loading for the carbine/rifles bullet length can be important.

since the rifle barrel has the chamber integral, the rifling leade (throat) may be closer than it is for a revolver. A very long bullet that, seated to the crimp groove, could be fine in a revolver cylinder MIGHT be hitting the rifling in a rifle barrel, if the throat is short. Something that bears finding out.

Likewise, some lever guns are not well disposed to working "long" rounds through the action. I can't think of a jacketed bullet that would be an issue, but some might be (long nose 180s??)

I do know that some cast bullets can be too long, if seated to the crimp groove. A friend jammed his Marlin, that way. It was a 210-ish lead slug, probably intended for .38 Special, but he loaded some in .357 cases. Tested a round in the chamber, all ok. But when he loaded two in the magazine and tried to lever one into the chamber, the gun jammed, and jammed to the point we had to disassemble it to get the ammo out.


I can't say if the rounds were over SAAMI spec length or not, didn't measure them, only got involed taking the gun apart. I can tell you they were seated and crimped in the right place on the bullet, but were too long to work through the Marlin action. It was back in the 80s...