NATO military shooting competitions

BlueTrain · August 4, 2012, 10:31 AM

There used to be competitions among NATO armies for shooting their various small arms. I believe the competitors were drawn from regular units and shot as a unit or team. I don't think these were much known about outside of military circles but the Olympic games reminded me of them.

Has anyone here ever participated or observed any such matches and do they still go on.

Buzzcook · August 5, 2012, 08:57 PM

http://armedforcessports.defense.gov/zsho.html
Found that.

BlueTrain · August 6, 2012, 06:41 AM

That's a fascinating link. The US team wasn't so hot. China was probably pulling out all the stops and it showed. Scandinavians and Germans seemed to be the most competitive.

It was in Croatia, I notice. Pretty there this time of year.

Uncle Buck · August 7, 2012, 11:41 AM

There used to be a competition in Korea amongst the Military Police and the Security Police. (The Provost Marshal's something or other, I do not remember the name of it)

We usually shot at a range outside of Seoul.

MTT TL · August 7, 2012, 03:49 PM

Yes. We got smoked by a Belgian Team, go figure. The team leader then piled it on by asking if he could "try one" of our M16s on the practice range and then wore a merry single hole into a target with that. There was a team from France, Germany and Belgium.

This was 1989, near the end of the Cold War. NATO combined arms training dropped off a whole bunch after that. These days with so few soldiers in Europe and those constantly deployed they likely don't have time for such stuff.

Nickel Plated · August 7, 2012, 09:32 PM

Do they use standard military issue rifles? Or is it some accurized, accesorized, gun that just looks sort-of, kind-of like a military rifle?

hermannr · August 7, 2012, 11:15 PM

When I shot with our team in Europe we shot standard issue weapons, with a twist...we shot theirs, they shot ours....and we all shot pretty much everything anyone had. It was a Brigade team, ours brigade V their brigade (German Panzer brigade). Rifle, pistol, machine pistol, machine gun. The fancy .22's were a bonus, rifle and pistol.

The hardest to qualify with was the German MG3 machine gun (7.62) fired prone with a bipod. Set to full auto, 1000 meter simulated targets, 15 round belt...and you had to hit 5 different targets, they chose which targets. Three rounds in each square, one of which had to be in the silouette inside the square. That was the minimum just to qualify...The easiest to shoot were the .22's.

BlueTrain · August 8, 2012, 07:00 AM

I'm not surprised that NATO shooting competitions have disappeared since the (more or less) end of the cold war. I'm also not surprised that other armies sometimes do better.

Other armies tended not to be doing much of anything around the world, with some exceptions. The French seemed to be kept busy in Africa, and the British in a few other places but everyone else stayed home until recently. In fact, my mother-in-law had a penpal from the Netherlands from before WWII who used to send us Christmas cards every year. They may have passed on because we haven't heard from them for a couple of years. But anyway, their granddaughter served in Afganistan with the Dutch army. Mostly what other countries do is of little interest to us here.

I'd also say that countries with large rural areas and with a hunting tradition do better in shooting sports. That actually includes Germany and Russia.

MTT TL · August 8, 2012, 08:16 AM

We used our assigned M16s from the Arms room.

BigBaldBuddha · March 30, 2016, 06:54 PM

that won the first gold for the US in 1990. We used the hosts FAL 7.62 (4 gunners) with an M-2 MG on an open range up to 300 m with open sights and moving targets.

C7AR15 · March 30, 2016, 11:15 PM

Several years ago, I was up at whistler Ski resort in B.C. On the cable TV in the hotel room, a sniper match was in progress.
This was an International competition with teams from around the world. The US had a dozen(?) teams from all the branches of the military.

The first match was 1 shot from a cold barrel for score. A lot of teams missed the target entirely.

Have never seen anything like it since

kraigwy · March 31, 2016, 12:00 PM

Quote:

This was an International competition with teams from around the world. The US had a dozen(?) teams from all the branches of the military.

Have never seen anything like it since

Yeah its called THE INTERNATIONAL SNIPER COMPETITION held every year at the Benning School for Boys. Sponsored by the Army Sniper Assn and the Army Sniper School.

Ireland won last year, Rangers 2nd, but its normally won by the AMU if they show up, or by one of the Ranger Companies if the AMU doesn't show.

The Marines came in third last year if I remember right, that was a pretty good showing for them. As much as people brag up Marine Snipers they always get beat in head to head competition by the Army.

The Army Marksmanship Unit rules the game.

They even have civilian Law Enforcement teams.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to the NATO Games. That's what caused me to pull the pen and retire from the National Guard (which I've regretted, its easier to get out then back in)

In the Early 90s I was repenting Region VI, MAC (Marksmanship Advisory Committee). There were 7 Regions that advised the NGB on Marksmanship Policy.

At the MAC conference the Army presented a program where they wanted the Guard to get away from the composite program (National Match type shooting or High Power) and get involved more into Combat style shooting.

I was against this. We were told the All Guard Team attended the NATO Games which was all combat style and they really enjoyed it. All the NATO countries were using this style of competition.

I asked how the Guard team did. "Well they won it all". So I suggested that if our Composite style wins the combat matches, maybe NATO should switch to Composite.

I pushed my point and got all the other MAC Region Directors to agree and we voted to keep the Composite.

Shortly after returning home I was notified that the Army overrode the NGB and forced us to adapt the combat style for our National Guard Competitions.

Made me mad and I turned in my papers to retire.

If you'll check the Records of the National Matches, All Army, and Inter service matches during the 80s the NGMTU were winning most of the team matches. That stopped in the 90s.

After that the AMU dominated and still does. The reasoning is the AMU didn't give up their Composite shooting.

Combat style shooting is fine, but it does not teach the fundamentals that Composite does. Gen Hatcher point this out years ago in his book, TEXTBOOKD OF PISTOLS AND REVOLVERS (1935 I believe). And it is the reason President IKE created the AMU.

4EVERM-14 · March 31, 2016, 02:36 PM

Kraigwy,'
Great post. NMC stlye shooting is one of the best marksmanship training you can get.

And thank you for your service.

Rob228 · March 31, 2016, 05:01 PM

We informally shot against the Dutch at a huge multi-national training op in Egypt. Then we went back to their bar (they brought a bar with them, we did not). Can't even remember if a winner was declared, but we had a good time. Their H&K version of the M-203 was a big hit with us.

jaysouth · March 31, 2016, 07:23 PM

In the 60's there was a NATO competition called the "Prix LeClerc".

The ones that I saw were infantry weapons including rifle, auto rifle and Machine gun.

The Brits were using the GPMG then that is almost the same as our M-240. They used Brens in 7.62 Nato. We got smoked when shooting our M-14E2 against the Bren. Everyone did better than our M-60 MGs.

The competition involved running to a position, assuming a shooting position and shooting on fixed targets. In the AR and MG competition, the gunner and Asst Gunner swapped positions after each stage. Individual teams were scored on time, form, trigger manipulation (no more than a 3 round burst) and hits.

I seem to remember there was also pistol and grenade competition. The competition to get on the US Army team was pretty fierce.

halraiser · October 21, 2018, 09:24 PM

I was on the US Prix Leclerc team in 1971. The competition involved a simple night shoot, then the main event. The main event was a 1200-1400 meter run, carrying our weapons and ammunition. Then we had an obstacle course which as I remember included a pit from which we threw dummy grenades at windows. Once a grenade went through a window we could leave the pit and jump through the windows. Then there were two high and two low hurdles, we went under the low hurdles and over the high ones. I don't remember all the obstacle course but there was a deeper pit and a sloping wall, both requiring teamwork to get past, a low crawl, and balance logs to walk. Then we came up on like and targets started popping up, out to about 450 meters if I remember right. There were, I think, four different shooting points, each using a different position. We had to use our country's normal infantry weapons which for us meant nine M-16s and one M-60.

I rather suspect that the rules may have changed over the years, but that is how it was in 1971.

August 4, 2012, 10:31 AM	#1
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	NATO military shooting competitions There used to be competitions among NATO armies for shooting their various small arms. I believe the competitors were drawn from regular units and shot as a unit or team. I don't think these were much known about outside of military circles but the Olympic games reminded me of them. Has anyone here ever participated or observed any such matches and do they still go on. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 6, 2012, 06:41 AM	#3
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	That's a fascinating link. The US team wasn't so hot. China was probably pulling out all the stops and it showed. Scandinavians and Germans seemed to be the most competitive. It was in Croatia, I notice. Pretty there this time of year. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 7, 2012, 11:41 AM	#4
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	There used to be a competition in Korea amongst the Military Police and the Security Police. (The Provost Marshal's something or other, I do not remember the name of it) We usually shot at a range outside of Seoul. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

August 7, 2012, 03:49 PM	#5
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	Yes. We got smoked by a Belgian Team, go figure. The team leader then piled it on by asking if he could "try one" of our M16s on the practice range and then wore a merry single hole into a target with that. There was a team from France, Germany and Belgium. This was 1989, near the end of the Cold War. NATO combined arms training dropped off a whole bunch after that. These days with so few soldiers in Europe and those constantly deployed they likely don't have time for such stuff. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

August 8, 2012, 07:00 AM	#8
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	I'm not surprised that NATO shooting competitions have disappeared since the (more or less) end of the cold war. I'm also not surprised that other armies sometimes do better. Other armies tended not to be doing much of anything around the world, with some exceptions. The French seemed to be kept busy in Africa, and the British in a few other places but everyone else stayed home until recently. In fact, my mother-in-law had a penpal from the Netherlands from before WWII who used to send us Christmas cards every year. They may have passed on because we haven't heard from them for a couple of years. But anyway, their granddaughter served in Afganistan with the Dutch army. Mostly what other countries do is of little interest to us here. I'd also say that countries with large rural areas and with a hunting tradition do better in shooting sports. That actually includes Germany and Russia. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 5, 2012, 08:57 PM	#2
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	http://armedforcessports.defense.gov/zsho.html Found that.

August 7, 2012, 09:32 PM	#6
Nickel Plated Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2010 Location: Brooklyn, NYC Posts: 610	Do they use standard military issue rifles? Or is it some accurized, accesorized, gun that just looks sort-of, kind-of like a military rifle?

August 7, 2012, 11:15 PM	#7
hermannr Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2011 Posts: 730	When I shot with our team in Europe we shot standard issue weapons, with a twist...we shot theirs, they shot ours....and we all shot pretty much everything anyone had. It was a Brigade team, ours brigade V their brigade (German Panzer brigade). Rifle, pistol, machine pistol, machine gun. The fancy .22's were a bonus, rifle and pistol. The hardest to qualify with was the German MG3 machine gun (7.62) fired prone with a bipod. Set to full auto, 1000 meter simulated targets, 15 round belt...and you had to hit 5 different targets, they chose which targets. Three rounds in each square, one of which had to be in the silouette inside the square. That was the minimum just to qualify...The easiest to shoot were the .22's.

August 8, 2012, 08:16 AM	#9
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	We used our assigned M16s from the Arms room. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

March 30, 2016, 06:54 PM	#10
BigBaldBuddha Junior Member Join Date: March 29, 2016 Posts: 1	I was on the team... that won the first gold for the US in 1990. We used the hosts FAL 7.62 (4 gunners) with an M-2 MG on an open range up to 300 m with open sights and moving targets.

March 30, 2016, 11:15 PM	#11
C7AR15 Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2011 Location: Burnaby Posts: 260	Military Sniper Match Several years ago, I was up at whistler Ski resort in B.C. On the cable TV in the hotel room, a sniper match was in progress. This was an International competition with teams from around the world. The US had a dozen(?) teams from all the branches of the military. The first match was 1 shot from a cold barrel for score. A lot of teams missed the target entirely. Have never seen anything like it since

March 31, 2016, 02:36 PM	#13
4EVERM-14 Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2006 Location: Pennsy Posts: 720	Kraigwy,' Great post. NMC stlye shooting is one of the best marksmanship training you can get. And thank you for your service. __________________ David NRA Benefactor Member Distinguished Rifleman #731 Presidents 100

March 31, 2016, 05:01 PM	#14
Rob228 Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2010 Location: Hampstead NC Posts: 1,450	We informally shot against the Dutch at a huge multi-national training op in Egypt. Then we went back to their bar (they brought a bar with them, we did not). Can't even remember if a winner was declared, but we had a good time. Their H&K version of the M-203 was a big hit with us.

March 31, 2016, 07:23 PM	#15
jaysouth Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2001 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 787	In the 60's there was a NATO competition called the "Prix LeClerc". The ones that I saw were infantry weapons including rifle, auto rifle and Machine gun. The Brits were using the GPMG then that is almost the same as our M-240. They used Brens in 7.62 Nato. We got smoked when shooting our M-14E2 against the Bren. Everyone did better than our M-60 MGs. The competition involved running to a position, assuming a shooting position and shooting on fixed targets. In the AR and MG competition, the gunner and Asst Gunner swapped positions after each stage. Individual teams were scored on time, form, trigger manipulation (no more than a 3 round burst) and hits. I seem to remember there was also pistol and grenade competition. The competition to get on the US Army team was pretty fierce. Last edited by jaysouth; March 31, 2016 at 07:34 PM.

October 21, 2018, 09:24 PM	#16
halraiser Junior Member Join Date: October 21, 2018 Posts: 1	I was on the US Prix Leclerc team in 1971. The competition involved a simple night shoot, then the main event. The main event was a 1200-1400 meter run, carrying our weapons and ammunition. Then we had an obstacle course which as I remember included a pit from which we threw dummy grenades at windows. Once a grenade went through a window we could leave the pit and jump through the windows. Then there were two high and two low hurdles, we went under the low hurdles and over the high ones. I don't remember all the obstacle course but there was a deeper pit and a sloping wall, both requiring teamwork to get past, a low crawl, and balance logs to walk. Then we came up on like and targets started popping up, out to about 450 meters if I remember right. There were, I think, four different shooting points, each using a different position. We had to use our country's normal infantry weapons which for us meant nine M-16s and one M-60. I rather suspect that the rules may have changed over the years, but that is how it was in 1971.