LEO Only Forum

**Rich Lucibella** · November 14, 1998, 08:23 PM

[I apologize in advance for the length of this post]

This thread is a continuation of a topic that came up in the Handgun Forum. The question on the floor relates to the proposed development of a private Law Enforcement Forum on this site.

In an effort to establish some common ground, let me set forth the goals of of this site. It is the mission of The Firing Line to promote the safe and responsible ownership and use of firearms, thru education, dialogue and interaction. To this end, we encourage everyone from novice to expert to contribute and learn.

Our interest in protecting the Second Amendment, demands that we attempt to bring together John Q. Citizen, law enforcement professionals and military personnel so that each may better understand that we really are on the same page.

And so we question whether an LEO Only Forum will bring greater participation from that sector to the open forums or have the opposite effect.

SKN: When I referenced "increasing tension" between LEO's and other citizens, I was speaking to the increasing sense of frustration at the erosion of our freedoms and the growing tendency to inappropriately equate the badge with that erosion. I know from your posts that this concerns you as much as me. It is one of the primary goals of this site to help narrow that gap, one individual at a time.

Rob: Fell right into my trap, eh?

If we start an LEO Only Forum, it would be my intent to beat you into the Moderator position.

However, I do believe you would require help with the screening process...lot's of it.

01paw: You and Kod are "charter" members of this site. Should the day come that you disagree with our decisions and choose to leave, I assure you it will not be without a struggle

. Seriously, your input is highly valued. Based on what you and Rob have stated, I certainly intend to look very closely at this issue and have no immediate plans to move forward. (BTW, I would also be ineligible from entering an LEO Only Forum.)

However, there are a number of private boards that already exist for LEO's and others. One which comes to mind is the Cooper followers' API List, for which many Members here are not eligible. Lot's of good talent over there. If they asked me to move them onto a private Forum here, I'd be hard pressed to say "no"....especially if they were coming into our main forum page to get there.

Finally, please recognize that we are extraordinarily conservative in our approach to new Forums. There must be a clear need and the perception of a clear benefit to our mission.
Off my soapbox.
Best Regards to all.
Rich Lucibella

o1paw · November 14, 1998, 11:20 PM

Rich,
First let me say that it would be with great regret and a heavy heart should the day come that I feel it necessary to move on. I have seldom encountered so many knowledgable, experienced, "good people" in one place at one time as I have here. Many of them are LEO's, but not all are. Perhaps I'm a little sensitive to what I consider "exclusionary tactics" from my past experiences. After my injuries, when I could no longer be either a soldier or a cop, everyone turned their backs on me. I was no longer one of them since I was no longer doing the job, even though I knew and did that job well. I think that might make me a little more sensitive to these matters. I know that there isnt a LEO that posts on these boards that wants to exclude anyone. However I understand where they are coming from if they want one. After all, cops hang out with cops in social circles, its only natural. Who else can they relate to best? I was the same way when I was one. I understand the "fear" of non-LEO BG's picking up tactics on forums such as this, but I figure the chance is very remote.

It is also a rather slippery slope. If you find the need to form a secure forum for LEO's, then why not one for military personnel? SOC troops? Pretty soon everyone would be divided, no one would be conversing with anyone outside their own circle, subject matter would start to get stagnant (preaching to the choir, so to speak) and no one would be learning anything.
Lastly, let me say that it is not my intention to leave any time soon (your stuck with me for a while

) and that I consider it an honor to be considered a "charter member". Its good to be among good friends.
Sorry for such a long-winded post. Sometimes it takes a while to clearly type what I think I'm saying

Take care and stay safe,
01paw

Rob Pincus · November 14, 1998, 11:54 PM

When I saw this thread had appeared I figured I would sit back and feel out the crowd, but being named int he post makes m efel obligated to express, more precisely my position

settle in, this is going to be a long one...)

First, let me say that I identify very much with wath Paw had to say. I'm a bit of a lost child too, as you guys can tell. I dabble in just enough things to not really "belong" in any one circle. People who know me and want to judge me are free to, but it does kinda grate me the wrong way when someone hears that I used to "do security work" and they immediately dismiss me as a mall rent-a-cop, or that I am a reserve LEO and they consider me a wannabee, or that I was commissioned as an officer in the Army, but have never been assigned to a unit and am in the IRR and they don't even try to figure that one out or that. Anyway, the point is that I know what it is like to not quite fit.
I live on the fringes of a few different communities.

That said, the more I think about it, I do not like the idea that we need a special area to make the LEOs feel comfortable. As I said in the other thread I cannot think of anything that I would say on the internet in that area that I wouldn't say here (though I am open to hearing hypothetical scenarios... I promise I'll answer honestly). If it is a just a "lets make the LEOs feel good" thing, I'm against it, that implies that the non-LEOs will feel bad, which flies directly in the face of one of Rich's stated intentions.

I am all for attracting more people to the board, but not I wouldn't trade 3 dozen unknown entities for any one of you guys that I already know are quality contributors. Gun talkers on the internet, LEO or otherwiser, are a dime a dozen. I've secretly been given Rich a bunch of bad marketing advice so that we can keep this great, albeit small, group we've got

.

If I was to moderate that forum, I would encourage the conversation be kept to whatever we define as "sensitive" material and try to keep all the other topics in their proper open forum. I'll gladly fall into the trap of moderating anything you want Rich, but only until someone more qualified and at least as dedicated to the success of this site comes along. (the latter quality will definitely be the one that is harder to find.)

------------------
-Essayons

Jeff White · November 15, 1998, 02:08 AM

Rich,
As full time military and part time LEO I have to say that everyone should use their own best judgement when discussing any topic on an internet forum, restricted or not. I've been told by people much more knowledgeable then myself that we should never send anything over the internet (even private e-mail) that we wouldn't want printed in the news paper.

That said, I'd like to put my vote in against a private forum. Like it or not there is a rift between law enforcement and the general public. I'm not referring to the normal things, but a rift I've noticed growing between two groups that should be natural allies, civilian shooters and the military/LEO community. I think certain well publicized incidents and some very stupid preferential firarms laws (we can still buy large capacity mags, pre-ban semiauto rifles etc.) I think an LEO only forum here on a public site will just be another wedge to open this rift a little wider.
Jeff

ShadedDude · November 15, 1998, 03:32 AM

eeeeyyyyeeeaaahhhhuuuuuuhhhhmmmmmmmm.

I kinda am leaning against it.

------------------

Mouse Assassins inc.

Ed Brunner · November 15, 1998, 05:10 AM

This is a no brainer.If you want your own site set it up.You dont need anybody's approval.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed

**Rich Lucibella** · November 15, 1998, 02:34 PM

Well, that settles that one pretty quick. There will be no private forums on The Firing Line.

This decision is not the result of the idea having been "voted down", but because your arguments have convinced us. I defer to those who have thought the issue through more carefully than me and I apologize for jumping the gun. ("Barkeep, might I order a fine Pilsner to wash down this crow?")

If we wish to stand for open dialogue, closed forums would hardly be to our credit. Even if such forums increased traffic to the "open" sites, it would be a case of "means justifying the end".
Thanks for all your input.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 11-15-98).]

SKN · November 25, 1998, 12:50 PM

Rich: Been busy and away for awhile but have posted a recommendation and the url for this site to the secure LEO sites I'm involved in.

**Rich Lucibella** · November 25, 1998, 09:43 PM

SKN-
Welcome back...we were hoping we'd see you back. Thanks for spreading the word.
Best regards,
Rich Lucibella

. · December 19, 1998, 04:27 PM

Dang-it! As I was watching this thread unfold, expecting the Badge Bearers to get secret decoder rings, I was making my own plans for carving a new niche. I was all set to aggressively lobby for a new forum, just for the couch-potato, arm-chair quarter-backing, Walter-Mitty type Wannabes like myself. But, I guess I'll just have to be satisfied with my trusty remote and Purple Potomus Rentals of all my adventure and action heros.

Thanks guys, for keeping it one big happy family! There's already too damn many barriers to effective communication and learning in our society. You folks just kept another one from being built. I salute you.

November 14, 1998, 08:23 PM	#1
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	[I apologize in advance for the length of this post] This thread is a continuation of a topic that came up in the Handgun Forum. The question on the floor relates to the proposed development of a private Law Enforcement Forum on this site. In an effort to establish some common ground, let me set forth the goals of of this site. It is the mission of The Firing Line to promote the safe and responsible ownership and use of firearms, thru education, dialogue and interaction. To this end, we encourage everyone from novice to expert to contribute and learn. Our interest in protecting the Second Amendment, demands that we attempt to bring together John Q. Citizen, law enforcement professionals and military personnel so that each may better understand that we really are on the same page. And so we question whether an LEO Only Forum will bring greater participation from that sector to the open forums or have the opposite effect. SKN: When I referenced "increasing tension" between LEO's and other citizens, I was speaking to the increasing sense of frustration at the erosion of our freedoms and the growing tendency to inappropriately equate the badge with that erosion. I know from your posts that this concerns you as much as me. It is one of the primary goals of this site to help narrow that gap, one individual at a time. Rob: Fell right into my trap, eh? If we start an LEO Only Forum, it would be my intent to beat you into the Moderator position. However, I do believe you would require help with the screening process...lot's of it. 01paw: You and Kod are "charter" members of this site. Should the day come that you disagree with our decisions and choose to leave, I assure you it will not be without a struggle . Seriously, your input is highly valued. Based on what you and Rob have stated, I certainly intend to look very closely at this issue and have no immediate plans to move forward. (BTW, I would also be ineligible from entering an LEO Only Forum.) However, there are a number of private boards that already exist for LEO's and others. One which comes to mind is the Cooper followers' API List, for which many Members here are not eligible. Lot's of good talent over there. If they asked me to move them onto a private Forum here, I'd be hard pressed to say "no"....especially if they were coming into our main forum page to get there. Finally, please recognize that we are extraordinarily conservative in our approach to new Forums. There must be a clear need and the perception of a clear benefit to our mission. Off my soapbox. Best Regards to all. Rich Lucibella

November 14, 1998, 11:20 PM	#2
o1paw Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Washington Posts: 62	Rich, First let me say that it would be with great regret and a heavy heart should the day come that I feel it necessary to move on. I have seldom encountered so many knowledgable, experienced, "good people" in one place at one time as I have here. Many of them are LEO's, but not all are. Perhaps I'm a little sensitive to what I consider "exclusionary tactics" from my past experiences. After my injuries, when I could no longer be either a soldier or a cop, everyone turned their backs on me. I was no longer one of them since I was no longer doing the job, even though I knew and did that job well. I think that might make me a little more sensitive to these matters. I know that there isnt a LEO that posts on these boards that wants to exclude anyone. However I understand where they are coming from if they want one. After all, cops hang out with cops in social circles, its only natural. Who else can they relate to best? I was the same way when I was one. I understand the "fear" of non-LEO BG's picking up tactics on forums such as this, but I figure the chance is very remote. It is also a rather slippery slope. If you find the need to form a secure forum for LEO's, then why not one for military personnel? SOC troops? Pretty soon everyone would be divided, no one would be conversing with anyone outside their own circle, subject matter would start to get stagnant (preaching to the choir, so to speak) and no one would be learning anything. Lastly, let me say that it is not my intention to leave any time soon (your stuck with me for a while ) and that I consider it an honor to be considered a "charter member". Its good to be among good friends. Sorry for such a long-winded post. Sometimes it takes a while to clearly type what I think I'm saying Take care and stay safe, 01paw

November 14, 1998, 11:54 PM	#3
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	When I saw this thread had appeared I figured I would sit back and feel out the crowd, but being named int he post makes m efel obligated to express, more precisely my position settle in, this is going to be a long one...) First, let me say that I identify very much with wath Paw had to say. I'm a bit of a lost child too, as you guys can tell. I dabble in just enough things to not really "belong" in any one circle. People who know me and want to judge me are free to, but it does kinda grate me the wrong way when someone hears that I used to "do security work" and they immediately dismiss me as a mall rent-a-cop, or that I am a reserve LEO and they consider me a wannabee, or that I was commissioned as an officer in the Army, but have never been assigned to a unit and am in the IRR and they don't even try to figure that one out or that. Anyway, the point is that I know what it is like to not quite fit. I live on the fringes of a few different communities. That said, the more I think about it, I do not like the idea that we need a special area to make the LEOs feel comfortable. As I said in the other thread I cannot think of anything that I would say on the internet in that area that I wouldn't say here (though I am open to hearing hypothetical scenarios... I promise I'll answer honestly). If it is a just a "lets make the LEOs feel good" thing, I'm against it, that implies that the non-LEOs will feel bad, which flies directly in the face of one of Rich's stated intentions. I am all for attracting more people to the board, but not I wouldn't trade 3 dozen unknown entities for any one of you guys that I already know are quality contributors. Gun talkers on the internet, LEO or otherwiser, are a dime a dozen. I've secretly been given Rich a bunch of bad marketing advice so that we can keep this great, albeit small, group we've got . If I was to moderate that forum, I would encourage the conversation be kept to whatever we define as "sensitive" material and try to keep all the other topics in their proper open forum. I'll gladly fall into the trap of moderating anything you want Rich, but only until someone more qualified and at least as dedicated to the success of this site comes along. (the latter quality will definitely be the one that is harder to find.) ------------------ *-Essayons*

November 15, 1998, 02:08 AM	#4
Jeff White Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA Posts: 1,397	Rich, As full time military and part time LEO I have to say that everyone should use their own best judgement when discussing any topic on an internet forum, restricted or not. I've been told by people much more knowledgeable then myself that we should never send anything over the internet (even private e-mail) that we wouldn't want printed in the news paper. That said, I'd like to put my vote in against a private forum. Like it or not there is a rift between law enforcement and the general public. I'm not referring to the normal things, but a rift I've noticed growing between two groups that should be natural allies, civilian shooters and the military/LEO community. I think certain well publicized incidents and some very stupid preferential firarms laws (we can still buy large capacity mags, pre-ban semiauto rifles etc.) I think an LEO only forum here on a public site will just be another wedge to open this rift a little wider. Jeff

November 15, 1998, 03:32 AM	#5
ShadedDude Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: TN Posts: 254	eeeeyyyyeeeaaahhhhuuuuuuhhhhmmmmmmmm. I kinda am leaning against it. ------------------ Mouse Assassins inc.

November 15, 1998, 05:10 AM	#6
Ed Brunner Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Natchez, MS, USA Posts: 2,562	This is a no brainer.If you want your own site set it up.You dont need anybody's approval. ------------------ Better days to be, Ed

November 15, 1998, 02:34 PM	#7
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Well, that settles that one pretty quick. There will be no private forums on The Firing Line. This decision is not the result of the idea having been "voted down", but because your arguments have convinced us. I defer to those who have thought the issue through more carefully than me and I apologize for jumping the gun. ("Barkeep, might I order a fine Pilsner to wash down this crow?") If we wish to stand for open dialogue, closed forums would hardly be to our credit. Even if such forums increased traffic to the "open" sites, it would be a case of "means justifying the end". Thanks for all your input. Rich [This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 11-15-98).]

November 25, 1998, 12:50 PM	#8
SKN Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 1998 Location: Oregon Posts: 264	Rich: Been busy and away for awhile but have posted a recommendation and the url for this site to the secure LEO sites I'm involved in.

November 25, 1998, 09:43 PM	#9
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	SKN- Welcome back...we were hoping we'd see you back. Thanks for spreading the word. Best regards, Rich Lucibella

December 19, 1998, 04:27 PM	#10
. Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: My wife's house... Posts: 2,659	Dang-it! As I was watching this thread unfold, expecting the Badge Bearers to get secret decoder rings, I was making my own plans for carving a new niche. I was all set to aggressively lobby for a new forum, just for the couch-potato, arm-chair quarter-backing, Walter-Mitty type Wannabes like myself. But, I guess I'll just have to be satisfied with my trusty remote and Purple Potomus Rentals of all my adventure and action heros. Thanks guys, for keeping it one big happy family! There's already too damn many barriers to effective communication and learning in our society. You folks just kept another one from being built. I salute you.