.45 Auto Taper Crimp Almost Not Needed?

[slice38]

I just loaded my first block of .45 Auto this morning. I am using the Redding dies including the competition seating die (which has no crimp function at all to it). So, I also used a taper crimp die at the end of the process. When expanding the cases, I was careful to expand only enough to allow the bullet to begin going into the case and not a bit more. Once I seated the bullets, I took the barrel out of my Kimber to see how the handloads dropped in and out of the barrel. Only about two of the handloads had any resistance at all so I adjusted the taper crimp die to barely touch the handloads. I'm sure most of them got almost no taper crimp at all. Is this okay? I was expecting to need to crimp a bit harder.

Mike

[Unclenick]

Not OK if these are lead bullets. They slip deeper into the case too easily. Having the loading process or recoil push the bullet in just 1/8" can cause the pressure of a normal load to exceed +P limits. The .45 ACP doesn't have much extra powder space.

The purpose of the taper crimp with lead bullets, in addition to narrowing the bell in the case mouth, is to dig the case mouth part way into the lead, forming a slight step that ensures loading forces and recoil of the magazine housing banging into the bullet cannot force it to seat more deeply.

[slice38]

Sorry for the lack of information in my original post. These are 230 Gr. FMJ.

Mike

[fatboy02]

I thought the same thing......wrong! I am new to reloading and thought I had my crimp set right because they fit in my full size 1911 bbl. But they were not to spec when I used the calipers to check them. I got a new colt defender and the crimp caused all kinds of problems with it. FTF's, failure to go into battery and a couple pushed the round way into the case which could have caused a KABOOM.

Once I properly crimped the rounds they fed great. 500 rounds today no issues.

Use your calipers and set the crimp to the proper size.... trust me.

[Winterhawk56]

I have been loading for over 25 years to include the .45 and alway use a taper crimp at the minimum! The round should seat in the barrel evenly and the case mouth is the shoulder. As stated by fatboy02, use the caliper until you set the crimp to the correct diameter.

Alway check the maximum length and ensure your bullet is not pushing on the throat/cone! If the round is pushed deeper in the case you could have some SERIOUS ISSUES! Firing the .45 alone could cause the rounds in the clip to push the bullet into the casing! BIG TROUBLE! ALWAYS CRIMP to prevent this from happening!

One additional item is buy a case trimmer to ensure the case is not too long. I find most .45 brass takes a beating before having to trim although I trim all of mine to specification to ensure the taper crimp works evenly and the shoulder sits in the barrel/chamber evenly!

Have a great time with the .45 I know I do!

Ralph Williams

[Slamfire]

When I sent my Combat Elite off to Wilson Arms for gunsmithing, back came the pistol with a sheet of suggestions. One of which was the reloading practices of Wilson Arms.

Wilson Arms recommended taper crimping 45ACP ammo. They gave an outside diameter, measured at the case mouth, of 0.469". I have been following that for over a decade now, works fine.


[IMG]

[JFN]

You're doing it perfectly, slice38. With straight walled pistol cases like the .45 you're not really crimping anything, just removing the bell you put in the case to seat the bullet. Case tension holds the bullet not the "crimp".

[mikld]

I have to agree with JFN. Case (neck) tension holds the bullet in place on the 45 ACP. I've shot/reloaded a few hundred rounds for my Ruger P90 45 ACP and just straighten out the mouth for a "crimp". No bullet set back. Using RCBS dies.

[slice38]

Thanks for the good advice. I ran them back through the taper crimp die lightly to provide the level of crimp ya'll generally indicated. Wound up with about .469" or .470" at the case mouth.

Thanks,
Mike

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I make a dummy round with no primer or powder. I then take an OAL measurement. Then I will put that dummy round in my mag and rack it into the chamber two times and measure the OAL. If it has not changed, you are OK. This gives me piece of mind. Good luck!

[Nnobby45]

Wilson Arms recommended taper crimping 45ACP ammo. They gave an outside diameter, measured at the case mouth, of 0.469". I have been following that for over a decade now, works fine.

I still have my original "Combat .45" book by Bill Wilson around here some place. It goes back to when the .45ACP was used in ISPC with the 200 lead SWC. As I recall, crimp recommendation was .468 for lead and .471 or .472 for jacketed---just like the factory loads theres, and just like the manual lists for proper dimension at the case mouth.

If you try to get by with absolute minimum taper crimp, then your chamber might have to restore the case mouth during loading.

Nothing like the old bbl. used as aproper gage to see if your ammo plops in and falls right out.

Also, don't be paranoid about getting the "perfect" amount of case mouth belling. Especially if you use assorted range brass that's different lengths (you can't, anyway). Adjust the expander so you never crush a case. If you find little shavings that love to get into the primer cup, bell a little more until they disappear.

As indicated, don't be afraid to put some crimp on it to bring it into factory specs. But use just enough crimp to accomplish that. It's possible to use to much taper crimp and actually loosen things up.

When hardball comes out .471 or .472, you've done it right. As stated, .468 or .469 for lead will work fine, but is, IMO, more than necessary for jacketed bullets.

[Cloudpeak]

Case (neck) tension holds the bullet in place on the 45 ACP.

And on other straight walled pistols loads. Neck tension is a function of the sizing die, expander plug, case thickness and bullet diameter. Roll crimps hold bullets in place (though there is certainly case tension in play) in revolver rounds. On pistol rounds, the taper crimp removes the case mouth bell so the round will feed and chamber correctly.

When I first started loading 45's, I read conflicting advice on various gun forums concerning crimping. One thing that was stated as a given taht everyone agreed with is that bullet setback is bad. I had brand new RCBS dies, once fired brass and a supply of cast, .452" diameter bullets.

The first thing I did is load some dummy rounds to check the fit in the chamber. Once I got that dialed in, I put the dummy round in the mag after measuring COAL and dropped the slide. I got a bit of setback and the next trip through even more. I then started playing with the taper crimp die adjustment going from barely enough to get the round chambered to crimping into the bullet. As I remember, the most severe taper crimp actually increased setback and I've read a post or two from folks who had the same experience.

To solve the problem, I chucked the expander stem in the drill press and dressed it down .001", loaded some more dummies and tested them through several cycles. Less setback but still had a little so I did the procedure again. That did it and the dummy rounds were able to make it through 2 or 3 cycles with no setback and 5-6 with a very slight amount.

Anyway, that was my experience. Anyone having setback problems should test various taper crimps and check for setback and see what they find out. (And don't forget to report back)

[drail]

Cloudpeak explained this PERFECTLY! Far too many folks are overcrimping rounds thinking that it is the solution when the problem is simply insufficient neck tension. When you seat a bullet (with no crimp whatsoever) see if you can push it deeper into the case with hand pressure on the edge of your bench. If you can move it at all you need to reduce your expander die button's diameter down until it is smaller than your bullet diameter. .001" to 0015" smaller will allow the case neck to hold the bullet tight enough to prevent bullets seating deeper when chambered in a semi auto or pulling from recoil in a revolver. With good case neck tension no crimp is needed beyond removing the slight flare from the expander. Cases will also last much longer because you're not overworking the brass. Try it. Think of it like this - if I try to pull a baseball bat out of your grip while you hold it with only your thumb and index finger I will easily pull it out. Now wrap both hands around it and see if I can take it away from you. That's how case neck tension works. Every forum I read lately has discussions on bullet setback from repeated chambering in semi autos and how to prevent it. And then everybody starts talking about more crimp or certain types of crimp dies. All you need is more tension on the entire bullet, not just on the mouth of the case.

[Pocketfisherman]

If you want max accuracy, taper crimp. If you mixing different brands of brass with your reloads, the taper crimp will give you a final consistent tension on the bullet equal for all the different brass. I've been shooting Bullsey for 15 plus years, and have experimented with everything I can think of in the quest for best accuracy. When I did not crimp, accuracy was worse than when I did crimp. That is all the convincing I needed. Some of the cases I have I know have in excess of 25 reloadings, and I have no problems with case mouth splits from overworking the brass. Compared to a roll crimp, a taper crimp is very gentle on the case.

[Alleykat]

I have been loading for over 25 years to include the .45 and alway use a taper crimp at the minimum! The round should seat in the barrel evenly and the case mouth is the shoulder. As stated by fatboy02, use the caliper until you set the crimp to the correct diameter.

Alway check the maximum length and ensure your bullet is not pushing on the throat/cone! If the round is pushed deeper in the case you could have some SERIOUS ISSUES! Firing the .45 alone could cause the rounds in the clip to push the bullet into the casing! BIG TROUBLE! ALWAYS CRIMP to prevent this from happening!

One additional item is buy a case trimmer to ensure the case is not too long. I find most .45 brass takes a beating before having to trim although I trim all of mine to specification to ensure the taper crimp works evenly and the shoulder sits in the barrel/chamber evenly!

Have a great time with the .45 I know I do!

Ralph Williams

Ralph, 1911s don't have clips, and the recoil would tend to cause the bullet to move forward, rather than to setback, as contact with the feedramp might cause.

You only taper crimp enough to remove the bell. Unless you're roll-crimping into a cannelure, the crimp has absolutely nothing to do with preventing setback.

[mikld]

You're doing it perfectly, slice38. With straight walled pistol cases like the .45 you're not really crimping anything, just removing the bell you put in the case to seat the bullet. Case tension holds the bullet not the "crimp".

Yep! My 45 ACP rounds stay put with neck tension (FMJ, cast lead, PC coated lead, and plated lead) and I use a taper crimp die for "de-flaring" the cases. Mebbe I'm wrong, but not a problem in 22 years. I have ejected chambered reloads on several occasions and measured OAL and measured no more than .001" difference in length versus new "unfed" reloads (and that could be a fluke 'cause I don't remember measuring prior to feeding )...

[Hammerhead]

I use the Redding comp seater and separate taper crimper, Lyman M die expander. I rely on good bullet tension to prevent set back with jacketed, plated and coated bullets. I never crimp more than .001" or .002", just bump the case mouth with the taper crimper to remove any trace of flare and iron out any little dings.

[Metal god]

Yep! My 45 ACP rounds stay put with neck tension

Not mine , this was a thread I started on another forum

I've been reloading centerfire rifle for years but just started loading for hand guns . This question started out regarding crimping lead bullets and how much is needed . It now has moved to a general question to any bullet style . I started doing some test with different crimp strengths to see what holds the bullet best .

I was using the 45acp 200gr XTP bullet in the test . First I'll ask which of these bullets do you think has the right crimp ?



Ok now that we have a base line to work with . I seated a bullet and gave it a medium crimp . Likely something like the center bullet above . I then placed it in a mag and chambered it by releasing the slide on a Springfield 1911 and letting the slide fly home . I got .005 in bullet set back and was surprised at that . I really did not think I'd get any .

Now I have a couple threads going about 45acp reloading and this crimp thing has come up and I have received some good info . Some say my flare was to much and others feel it may be my COAL . . I thought I start a fresh thread dedicated to this point .

Now that I know I was getting bullet set back with my current method of flaring , seating & crimping I thought I'd try a couple more test all still using the same 200grXTP bullets ( each new test with new case and bullet ) and Springfield 1911 .

First I re-sized some cases then adjusted the flare to just barely give enough to seat the bullet with out shaving copper off . I then seated the bullet to my COAL of 1.240 and gave it a medium crimp . I then did the chambering test and the bullet set back .007 .

Ok no problem I do all that agian with new case and bullet but this time I crimp it as much as my die will crimp, VERY VERY heavy crimp ( way more then the bullet on the right in pic ). I then do the chambering test . I get bullet set back of .006 . I chamber it 4 more times in a row for a total set back of .037 . Now this is measuring with my .400 comparator not the tip of the bullet .

OK no problem lets see if it's my seating depth so I do all the sizing , flaring etc but seat the bullet to Hornady's per manual 1.210 . I then give the cartridge a medium heavy crimp . I then chamber test the round . Any guesses what happen -------------- yep got a set back of .007 . So I chambered that round another 4 times for a total set back of .031 .

Either I'm doing something very wrong or set back is a normal thing . Now everything I've read about crimping says you crimp to AVOID set back . I don't ever remember reading anything that said you crimp to keep set back to a MINIMUM .

Is this just something you can't stop with out a crimp groove ?

How many of you get set back and are ok with it and how many have actually tested for bullet set back ?

I have not been able to stop those bullets from setting back when chambered . I did load more up but have not tested them yet .

[T. O'Heir]

Ya'll notice the date of the OP?

[Metal god]

oops

[Unclenick]

This is a zombie thread. A newbie revived it with his first post, which I separated out into its own thread. However, the revived old thread stays in its position on the board.