LBT Design bullet? Indulge Me!

Robert the41MagFan · February 5, 2000, 04:19 AM

Today, I was at the gun show and met a gentleman that owns a company called Performance Cast Bullets from Rainier, Oregon. Not to be confused with the other company with the similar name from Wyoming (similar bullets too). He gave me his pitch for his bullets and threw me for a complete loop. These are very nicely manufactured bullets I might add, a quality that I have never seen in the marketplace. His pitch is that his company only make bullets of BHN 15-16 and can be water dropped heat treated to about BHN 20. He said that his company does not make the bullets any harder because hard bullets allow gases threw the gaps of the rifling. Said that bullets with BHN of more than 20 are too hard. Anyway, I need some help to clear my head, always thought that harder is better. AND, what exactly is a LBT design bullet? Where does Veral Smith fit in this puzzle? I know some of you old timers have some stories to tell, I would like to hear them.

Robert

Robert

Paul B. · February 5, 2000, 11:54 AM

Robert. LBT stands for Lead Bullets Technology, a company founded by Veral Smith.
I can't tell you the status on Mr. Smith, as he was arrested and convicted by the I.R.S. for income tax evasion. Apparently, Mr. Smith was given some bad advice on how to get out of paying income taxes, and the Infernal Ripoff Service went after him. It was stated that because he had a business that involved bullet making equipment, he was considered dangerous.
Most people who have tax problems are usually allowed to pay it off along with fines, but from what I have heard, Mr. Smith is to be incarcerated.
After all, he is a dangerous person making bullet molds and selling what is arguably the best bullet lube on the market. I have one of his molds, and it is the most accurate .44 caliber mold I own.
This info came from Sixgunner.com. I haven't seen anything on it lately, so I can't say what the outcome of his company, or his final status may be. It's too damn bad, as he put out one fine product.
Paul B.

NJW · February 5, 2000, 01:13 PM

PaulB handeled the Veral Smith side well and I will try and help out with the LBT design characteristics. In the world of cast bullets it has been found that since the bullet doesn't expand, they can be made more effective with a large metplat. This is the large flat front of the bullet. It was found that this large front area tears and pushes material (flesh & bone) in front of it leaving a very effective wound channel. The LBT design basically maximizes this metplat. The design also puts as much of the bullet weight outside of the case instead of inside the case where it would limit the powder capacity. I will attach a pic of an LBT bullet and you can see it rather than trying ot describe it.

HTH

NJW in AZ

[This message has been edited by NJW (edited February 05, 2000).]

Quantrill · February 5, 2000, 04:09 PM

Found this on the "Cast Bullet Assoc" web page and thought it might add a little something. Quantrill

I can add a little info to this thread from a slightly different perspective.
I shoot mostly benchrest cast bullets. As such, I shoot them as fast and as
hard as I can make them. I don't care about anything but punching out the X
dot. ( except for my hunting loads) But for purposes of this discussion, I
assume I don't care about the ductility or frangibility of the metal -- only
that the alloy makes match grade bullets.

A few years back, I WAS concerned that the alloy made a difference. So, I
shot two alloys that are on the extreme ends of the spectrum against each
other. The first alloy was made of monotype. This is a 30 bhn alloy that is
very rich in tin and antimony. The other alloy was heat treated wheel weights
at 30 bhn. Other than the difference in the weight of the bullets, (sectional
density changed) my gunbarrels didn't care which one they shot. Both alloys
shot with equal accuracy. In fact as far a practical accuracy goes, the edge
went to the ww alloy bullets because of their 6 % higher ballistic
coefficeint. Neither caused any other problems such as leading etc...

As far as the ability of these two bullets to slug up in a chamber, I don't
know and don't care. I shoot bullets that are larger than the bore and just
slightly larger than the throat freebore dia. so, as such, they don't need to
slug up to seal. All I cared about was that they were hard. And as long as
they both measured the same hardness on the LBT tester, they shot with equal
performance. None of the bullets would bend without breaking.

I don't think they would work well in a revolver where it is essential that
they slug up in the cylinder throats. In that case I used pure wheel weights.
In the case of hunting bullets made of lead alloys, the alloy would make a
difference in how the performed in the animal. Here, you would be concerned
with alloy composition and hardness both.

Strength and hardness for my purposes run hand in hand.

swifter... · February 5, 2000, 10:46 PM

I'd tend to agree on the hardness issue, I've been casting over the years, lots of bullets for .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, and .41 Magnum in the main. They all tended to lead foul with either too hard or too soft an alloy.

Got rid of leading almost entirely with molyplating!

Veral Smith is currently doing four years in the Federal prison system. The data about his arrest, etc. are at Sixgunner.com in FAQ's.

Dave Farmer at Colorado Shooters Supply tells me he can make the WFN bullets in the LBT style.

------------------
The Bill of Rights, and the Golden Rule are enough for civilized behavior. The rest is window dressing. Shoot carefully, swifter...

THE .41 MAN · February 6, 2000, 04:39 AM

Cast Performance Bullet Company is just one of the commercial casters I use. These are the people in Riverton,Wyoming whose bullets the Federal people use to make their hunting bullet line. I like to use their 250gr.WFNGC in all my .41Magnum hunting handguns. Their 265gr WFNGC is alson very good. Cabela's is now selling their product in the new 2000 Shooting Catalog. Then, there is Penny's in Kalifornia, Mt. Baldy in South Dakota, and BRP in Colorado. They all make a good LBT design bullet as far as I'm concerned. Do check the sixguns.com and sixgunner.com sites. They have alot of good information on sixgun bullets, loads, etc.. RKBA!

------------------
THE .41 MAN
HAVE MORE FUN WITH A .41

Robert the41MagFan · February 7, 2000, 09:02 PM

Gentlemen, thanks for your inputs. I will give some of these bullet mentioned a shot.

Robert

Randy Garrett · February 10, 2000, 02:12 AM

Robert,

Don't let anyone tell you that bullets harder than 15-16 Brinnell will allow gas to escape as the bullet goes down the barrel. What allows gas to escape is bullet diameter that inadequate for the barrel and chamber throat. As long as the bullet diameter is at least as great as barrel diameter, and preferably about .001" larger, gas will not escape when the bullets are harder than 15-16 Brinnell. We run our bullets at 25-Brinnell and size them to .431" (44 Magnum) and they do not allow gas to escape in any guns we have tested, nor have we heard that from any of our customers or gun writers. It is true that softer bullets are less sensitive to the need for proper diameter as they will deform in the base under magnum ignition pressures to seal the bore, however, if diameters are right no gas will escape from behind a proper hard-cast bullet. Also, 15-Brinnell castings will produce higher pressure when one is loading maximum magnum ammo as opposed to 20+ Brinnell castings due to the fact that the deformity of the base that occurs under magnum ignition pressures increases the resistance to sending the bullet down the barrel. We have run many pressure test comparison over the years and this relationship of pressure to bullet hardness is clear.

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com

[This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited February 10, 2000).]

February 5, 2000, 04:19 AM	#1
Robert the41MagFan Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 1999 Posts: 1,233	Today, I was at the gun show and met a gentleman that owns a company called Performance Cast Bullets from Rainier, Oregon. Not to be confused with the other company with the similar name from Wyoming (similar bullets too). He gave me his pitch for his bullets and threw me for a complete loop. These are very nicely manufactured bullets I might add, a quality that I have never seen in the marketplace. His pitch is that his company only make bullets of BHN 15-16 and can be water dropped heat treated to about BHN 20. He said that his company does not make the bullets any harder because hard bullets allow gases threw the gaps of the rifling. Said that bullets with BHN of more than 20 are too hard. Anyway, I need some help to clear my head, always thought that harder is better. AND, what exactly is a LBT design bullet? Where does Veral Smith fit in this puzzle? I know some of you old timers have some stories to tell, I would like to hear them. Robert Robert

February 5, 2000, 11:54 AM	#2
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	Robert. LBT stands for Lead Bullets Technology, a company founded by Veral Smith. I can't tell you the status on Mr. Smith, as he was arrested and convicted by the I.R.S. for income tax evasion. Apparently, Mr. Smith was given some bad advice on how to get out of paying income taxes, and the Infernal Ripoff Service went after him. It was stated that because he had a business that involved bullet making equipment, he was considered dangerous. Most people who have tax problems are usually allowed to pay it off along with fines, but from what I have heard, Mr. Smith is to be incarcerated. After all, he is a dangerous person making bullet molds and selling what is arguably the best bullet lube on the market. I have one of his molds, and it is the most accurate .44 caliber mold I own. This info came from Sixgunner.com. I haven't seen anything on it lately, so I can't say what the outcome of his company, or his final status may be. It's too damn bad, as he put out one fine product. Paul B.

February 5, 2000, 01:13 PM	#3
NJW Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 1998 Location: SouthWest Posts: 204	PaulB handeled the Veral Smith side well and I will try and help out with the LBT design characteristics. In the world of cast bullets it has been found that since the bullet doesn't expand, they can be made more effective with a large metplat. This is the large flat front of the bullet. It was found that this large front area tears and pushes material (flesh & bone) in front of it leaving a very effective wound channel. The LBT design basically maximizes this metplat. The design also puts as much of the bullet weight outside of the case instead of inside the case where it would limit the powder capacity. I will attach a pic of an LBT bullet and you can see it rather than trying ot describe it. HTH NJW in AZ [This message has been edited by NJW (edited February 05, 2000).]

February 5, 2000, 04:09 PM	#4
Quantrill Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 1999 Location: Arizona, USA Posts: 725	Found this on the "Cast Bullet Assoc" web page and thought it might add a little something. Quantrill I can add a little info to this thread from a slightly different perspective. I shoot mostly benchrest cast bullets. As such, I shoot them as fast and as hard as I can make them. I don't care about anything but punching out the X dot. ( except for my hunting loads) But for purposes of this discussion, I assume I don't care about the ductility or frangibility of the metal -- only that the alloy makes match grade bullets. A few years back, I WAS concerned that the alloy made a difference. So, I shot two alloys that are on the extreme ends of the spectrum against each other. The first alloy was made of monotype. This is a 30 bhn alloy that is very rich in tin and antimony. The other alloy was heat treated wheel weights at 30 bhn. Other than the difference in the weight of the bullets, (sectional density changed) my gunbarrels didn't care which one they shot. Both alloys shot with equal accuracy. In fact as far a practical accuracy goes, the edge went to the ww alloy bullets because of their 6 % higher ballistic coefficeint. Neither caused any other problems such as leading etc... As far as the ability of these two bullets to slug up in a chamber, I don't know and don't care. I shoot bullets that are larger than the bore and just slightly larger than the throat freebore dia. so, as such, they don't need to slug up to seal. All I cared about was that they were hard. And as long as they both measured the same hardness on the LBT tester, they shot with equal performance. None of the bullets would bend without breaking. I don't think they would work well in a revolver where it is essential that they slug up in the cylinder throats. In that case I used pure wheel weights. In the case of hunting bullets made of lead alloys, the alloy would make a difference in how the performed in the animal. Here, you would be concerned with alloy composition and hardness both. Strength and hardness for my purposes run hand in hand.

February 5, 2000, 10:46 PM	#5
swifter... Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: So. CA Mountains Posts: 540	I'd tend to agree on the hardness issue, I've been casting over the years, lots of bullets for .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, and .41 Magnum in the main. They all tended to lead foul with either too hard or too soft an alloy. Got rid of leading almost entirely with molyplating! Veral Smith is currently doing four years in the Federal prison system. The data about his arrest, etc. are at Sixgunner.com in FAQ's. Dave Farmer at Colorado Shooters Supply tells me he can make the WFN bullets in the LBT style. ------------------ The Bill of Rights, and the Golden Rule are enough for civilized behavior. The rest is window dressing. Shoot carefully, swifter...

February 6, 2000, 04:39 AM	#6
THE .41 MAN Member Join Date: January 3, 2000 Location: PRK, USA Posts: 31	Cast Performance Bullet Company is just one of the commercial casters I use. These are the people in Riverton,Wyoming whose bullets the Federal people use to make their hunting bullet line. I like to use their 250gr.WFNGC in all my .41Magnum hunting handguns. Their 265gr WFNGC is alson very good. Cabela's is now selling their product in the new 2000 Shooting Catalog. Then, there is Penny's in Kalifornia, Mt. Baldy in South Dakota, and BRP in Colorado. They all make a good LBT design bullet as far as I'm concerned. Do check the sixguns.com and sixgunner.com sites. They have alot of good information on sixgun bullets, loads, etc.. RKBA! ------------------ THE .41 MAN HAVE MORE FUN WITH A .41

February 7, 2000, 09:02 PM	#7
Robert the41MagFan Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 1999 Posts: 1,233	Gentlemen, thanks for your inputs. I will give some of these bullet mentioned a shot. Robert

February 10, 2000, 02:12 AM	#8
Randy Garrett Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 1999 Location: Chehalis, WA Posts: 142	Robert, Don't let anyone tell you that bullets harder than 15-16 Brinnell will allow gas to escape as the bullet goes down the barrel. What allows gas to escape is bullet diameter that inadequate for the barrel and chamber throat. As long as the bullet diameter is at least as great as barrel diameter, and preferably about .001" larger, gas will not escape when the bullets are harder than 15-16 Brinnell. We run our bullets at 25-Brinnell and size them to .431" (44 Magnum) and they do not allow gas to escape in any guns we have tested, nor have we heard that from any of our customers or gun writers. It is true that softer bullets are less sensitive to the need for proper diameter as they will deform in the base under magnum ignition pressures to seal the bore, however, if diameters are right no gas will escape from behind a proper hard-cast bullet. Also, 15-Brinnell castings will produce higher pressure when one is loading maximum magnum ammo as opposed to 20+ Brinnell castings due to the fact that the deformity of the base that occurs under magnum ignition pressures increases the resistance to sending the bullet down the barrel. We have run many pressure test comparison over the years and this relationship of pressure to bullet hardness is clear. Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com [This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited February 10, 2000).]