Beauty and the Beast

[Oquirrh]

I got to shoot my new Navy Pocket today. It's an Uberti and a beauty. But turned into a bear while shooting:
1. can't put caps on while the cylinder is mounted--not enough clearance. So I have to take the cylinder out to put the caps on.
2. Burst caps caused A LOT of jamming.
3. After the first two cylinders shot, I got a lot of misfires. A cap fragment fell down in the action and was slowing the hammer down.
4.Those little .36 balls are hard to handle in my big mitts.
5. Shoots way high (No surprise there) but pretty accurate for a shake down cruise. I;ll have to make a higher front sight 'cause filing the hammer notch just ain't going to make it.

I also took the beast, my Ruger Old Army. No problems and I could load and fire twice as fast as the Pocket Navy.

Any suggestions on a higher sight on the pocket that won't make it look ridiculous?

Suggested accurate load? I was firing 20 grains of FFFG, with a wonder wad.

Finally, is there a way to cap it without tearing it down? I love the pistol but I'm afraid it will soon collect dust cause its such a bear to reload.

[Fingers McGee]

IIRC I always used a TDC revolver capper on the Pocket Police and Pocket Navy. Failing that, a straight line capper should work fine. Trying to cap one with ones fingers would be a bear.
Practice will make handling the .36 cal balls easier. When I switched from 1860 Armies to .36 Navies, I thought it was the hardest thing I had ever done. Now, it's second nature.
You'd be surprised how opening the sight notch will help bring the POI down.
All C&Bs benefit from Treso nipples. They greatly reduce burst caps and the cap jam problem.
15 grs of fffg is all you really need for the pocket pistols. Some people use 12 with good results. My loading for 51 Navies w/7 1/2 inch barrel is only 20 grs.

[Hawg]

You can reduce the number of cap jams by raising the muzzle and tilting it to the right while cocking.

[mykeal]

+1 to what both Fingers and Hawg said.

You've opened one of the less popular gates in the bp world, but they are fun little guns. Got to learn some new tricks, get some new tools. Practice will improve things, I'm sure.

[Oquirrh]

It's got tresco nipples.

I have a straight line capper, there is no clearance in the cut out for the cap itself, let alone the jaws of a capper. I even tried using a chop stick with double-sided tape (a good trick), but no. I feel like i'm missing something. (I'll put some fotos of the cut out up asap)

I'll lower the powder charge to 15-16g, maybe that will reduce the burst caps.

I opened the notch considerably (the previous owner told me it was way high) but it still throws the ball 10" high at 25. I doubt (?) reduced loads will drop that significantly.

I like the revolver a lot. I got it because I wanted something very different from the ROA -- a replica, .36 cal, open top, etc. And this Uberti, with the case-hardening, is sweet looking.

Even with all the trouble -- I'll probably make a higher front sight -- this pistol makes me want another colt-style cap&ball. A guy at the ranch offered to sell me an '60 Army (Pietta $150). Tempting and looked easy to load :-).

I really appreciate the guidance.

[Fingers McGee]

Is the lack of clearance for the cap in the frame scallop or the cut on the cylinder? One of my early pocket models has a really shallow scallop on the frame and there have been some concerns voice here & other forums about Uberti quality control lately. If it's the nipple cutouts on the cylinder, they can be opened up and cold blued. Opening up the frame scallop would be an easy fix with a sanding drum; but wouldn't be as easy to match the finish.

Part of the shooting high could be caused by the "big mitts' and small frame. You could be pulling the shots high. I dont have big mitts, and have to pay more attention to what I'm doing when firing my pocket model with R&D cylinder. A dovetailed front sight blade could be added to bring the POI down; and, they are period correct for the gun - if that's a concern to you.

Pietta 1860s are good quality, fun to shoot pistol.

[Oquirrh]

i just got back from the range. Had a frustrating few hours with the Navy pocket.

Constant jamming from the cap frags. I tried everything--pointing up, pointing down. I loaded it down to 12 grains but it still shoots way high at 20 yards and always blows the caps flat and off the nipple.

I'll need to take some pictures, but the problem with capping isn't with the cylinder--I can cap it with an in-line capper when the cylinder has been removed. the problem is the "scallop" on the right side where the nipples are supposed to be exposed for capping. I tried carefully to capp it with fingers, chopsticks and popsicle sticks. They just won't go on all the way because of the angle. I don't think you could grind it without totally messing up the case hardened finish.

I'll upload a picture. (Now, I know why I got such a good deal on the pistol, in the box, with the bronze nipples and a holster).

Makes me appreciate my ROA, if nothing else.

I was offered a .36 Colt navy that was marked Euroarms (everyone is trying to sell me cap&ball pistols--maybe I look like a sucker). . It was a "gettysburg commemorative," but had been used hard and the fake gold finish was worn badly. But it was all steel underneath. Guy told me Euroarms is Ulberti. Is that true? He wants too much for it, but it looked well made.

[mykeal]

Euroarms is the old Armi San Paolo, not Uberti.

[JayC]

I don't believe that just deepening the rear sight notch will change point of impact. I believe you need to file the tip of the hammer (which is the top of the rear sight), just taking a little bit at a time with test shots periodically so you don't remove too much.

[Fingers McGee]

Sometimes it is necessary to dehorn the hammer slightly to get the POI down to the POA after opening the notch. The notch in most hammers is too small to fill it with the front sight post. In order to see the front sight, it is necessary to tilt the pistol up so it will show up over the notch. The purpose in opening it up is to allow sufficient room to fill the notch with the front sight, effectively tilting the pistol down.

[Oquirrh]

On a hunch, I put the factory nipples in--the original owner never used them, but they were in the box. EUREKA! NOW, I CAN CAP IT with my fingers a capper won't fit. Apparently the treso nipples were slightly too long!

I shot it today. with 12g of Shockey still 8" high, with the tippy tip of the front sight barely visible in the notch. But I enjoyed it, anyway.

The Shockey stuff doesn't seem as accurate as BP, but it's cleaner and I wanted to keep the fouling down while I fiddled with the pistol.

It's still flattening the caps, but I had less jams because i cocked carefully and shook the trash out. (Otherwise it would have hung up every other shot.)

Here's my plan (whaddaya think?):
1. Find nipples with small holes--maybe that will keep the caps intact. How/where do I find Treso the right length with smaller holes?

2. Keep loads in 12 g range.

3. Grind out space to the right of the hammer to get more clearance for the busted caps.

4. Put a higher front sight on.

5. Fingers, what does "dehorn" the hammer mean--I filed the notch in twice as far as it was from the factory.

[mykeal]

How/where do I find Treso the right length with smaller holes?

You don't. Treso's only come with one size touch hole; it's generally about the smallest of any nipple currently available.

As far as length is concerned the news isn't much better. I believe the thread size for your Pocket Navy is 12X28, and Treso lists 3 different lengths with that thread spec:
11-50-12 is 0.522" long,
11-50-16 is 0.501" long and
11-50-30 is 0.586" long.
The bad news is that Treso doesn't list the lengths, so you have to order some samples and measure them yourself, which is what I did to get those numbers. In addition, I've seen very wide variations in length within one part number from Treso.

Bottom line, it's a bit of a crap shoot. If you want to go ahead (and you might as well, it's the only game in town), The Possible Shop sells Treso nipples; use the above part numbers with 11 changed to 12. Also Track of the Wolf; they use their own part numbers:
11-50-12 = PRA-A
11-50-16 = PCC-A
11-50-30 = PTC-PA

[Fingers McGee]

5. Fingers, what does "dehorn" the hammer mean--I filed the notch in twice as far as it was from the factory.

Sorry, it's filing the tip of the hammer like Jayc said. The effect is the same as lowering the the rear sight. That and you want to have the notch big enough to see the front sight in the notch, not just positioned at the top of it.

From your experiences and Mykeal's nipple measurements; sounds like the previous owner put the longer 11-50-30 nipples on it instead of the 11-50-16 nipples.

[Oquirrh]

I've got a caliper. I'll measure my nipples to see if it jibes with what you found, mykeal.

Then, I'll order the correct length.

And I'll dehord the rear sight and see how much difference that makes.

One other issue with the pocket navy: I have regular failure to pop the cap on the first try. It's either that the cap isn't all the way on? or a weak spring.

(As you've probably seen, i need to fix a nipple on my ROA too.)

btw, I'm really hooked on these cap&balls, despite the issues I've encountered. I think I'll look around for a decent 1851 Navy full-sized.

[mykeal]

Failure of the cap to fire on first strike, but then successfully fire on a subsequent strike can be caused by one of three things:

1) weak mainspring - the easiest correction is to place a wedge between the mainspring and the grip frame, effectively moving the fulcrum up the spring and shortening the effective length. This stiffens the spring.

2) wrong size caps - they are essentially too small in diameter and do not go all the way down onto the nipple. The first hammer strike ends up pushing them into place. You can fix this by either pushing them on with your thumb or a wooden dowel or getting larger caps. Unfortunately the cap dimension story is even worse than the nipple story - there's no relationship between sizes of the different brands and even batches within a given brand and size. You just have to buy some and try them out.

3) mushroomed nipple - the tip has been peened into a mushroom shape and the cap will not fit over it properly. New nipples are required. However, it's possible to rework the nipple - chuck it into a drill motor and sand or file the tip back flush with the side of the cone with the motor acting as a lathe.

[JayC]

As I understand it, using a heavier mainspring (or shimming it as described above) may solve two of your problems. First, it will make the caps more likely to pop on the first strike. Second, it should help the hammer resist the expanding gases trying to escape through the nipple, keeping the spent caps from blowing off and falling into the action.

[Oquirrh]

I measured my nipples with a caliper--don't have a micrometer. The bronze one mikes at exactly 0.50 (that's as close as I can read it.) it might be the 11-50-16 -- 0.501" long.

But the factory stock nipple comes in at exactly 0.049! Which Teso would replace a 0.49? (BTW, I'm guessing these nipples are Teso. They are bronze, could they be something else?)

Maybe it's the .31 Cal. Italian Revolver (12-2) nipple 11-50-305 at the possible shop???


The end diameter of the factory nipple is a hair smaller than the Teso, too.

You wouldn't think it would make that much difference, but it does in putting caps on. 10s are real tight, 11s fall off.

Crazy, but could I file the bronze nipples down a smidge?

[long rider]

I did like one of the guys said, put the nipple in a drill
take a small file, take your time and keep checking with
a #10 or a #11 check your other guns to see what you
have the most of, file a little at a time clean and try a
nipple till you are happy. I did all my nipples to fit # 10
cci and never had a prob with them, and after a shooting
spree i clean them a tad bit of extra V oil NO PROB.
Good luck.

[long rider]

OH btw if you get yourself a 58 remmy its very very
rare bits of caps gets in the mec.

[Smokin_Gun]

Oquirrh,

Constant jamming from the cap frags. I tried everything--pointing up, pointing down. I loaded it down to 12 grains but it still shoots way high at 20 yards and always blows the caps flat and off the nipple.

I got a pic to show you how to raise that cone sight higher.
An Old friend of mine fingured this one out.
He goes by Oldelm... self explainitory. (Brass Rod) jus' solder it on.




I really like Armi San Paolo Revs , well this one Rem anyway. It's an Old one.


This SS Rem is an 1858 Euroarms I just got from Gunbroker this past week NIB.(good prices)Nothin against Colts but the open tops seem to jam caps more and worse especially the little ones...1862 Police, Pocket Navy,ect. I offer you to go and get an 1858 Rem if you don't aready have one.
That one you're having cap probs with may only be you Heed a differnt size cap. If CCI#11's are loose get some 10's. I'm a CCI fan don't much like Rem caps, but try them if CCI ain't workin. Then before you throw the 1862 in the River contact me

SG

[mykeal]

I measured my nipples with a caliper--don't have a micrometer. The bronze one mikes at exactly 0.50 (that's as close as I can read it.) it might be the 11-50-16 -- 0.501" long.

But the factory stock nipple comes in at exactly 0.049! Which Teso would replace a 0.49? (BTW, I'm guessing these nipples are Teso. They are bronze, could they be something else?)

Maybe it's the .31 Cal. Italian Revolver (12-2) nipple 11-50-305 at the possible shop???


The end diameter of the factory nipple is a hair smaller than the Teso, too.

You wouldn't think it would make that much difference, but it does in putting caps on. 10s are real tight, 11s fall off.

Crazy, but could I file the bronze nipples down a smidge?

Actually I think I've mislead you a little. The measurement that really matters is the distance from the tip of the nipple to the thread bearing surface - the flat spot at the top of the threads that rests against the cylinder when the nipple is threaded down into place. I call that the 'tip height'. The overall length numbers above include the thread length, which is of no importance in whether the caps fire on first strike.

Here are the tip height numbers for the three Treso nipples with the proper threads for your gun:
11-50-12: 0.274"
11-50-16: 0.293"
11-50-30: 0.276"

That dimension on the OEM Uberti nipples on my 1862 Pocket Police is 0.268".

All that leads me to believe the best replacement nipple for your Pocket Navy would be the Treso 11-50-30. The 11-50-305 at the Possible Shop is just a set of 5 11-50-30 Treso nipples.

Yes, you can file the nipple down a smidge. I'd do that before buying new ones. Just chuck the nipple up in a drill (tighten the chuck on the ridge at the top of the threads, not the threads themselves) and use it as a lathe to turn the nipple while you hold the file on the tip. Take only a little off at a time and try the caps frequently. You don't want to overdo it.