Powder Choice for 187gr. .357 Cast Perf.---

[Prince55]

What would be the best choices of powder for a S&W Model 60-3 inch barrel
and a Ruger Security Six with 4 inch barrel using the Cast Performance
187 grain Wide Flat Nose bullet in the .357 Magnum ?
Penetration first, then accuracy.
Carry gun while cutting firewood & hiking in desolate places.
Thanks

[gspman]

Prince I think i would load 2400 powder under those heavies in the short barrel pistols that you have.I do not like h110 in my short barrel 357.I get good velocity and accuracy with 2400.GSPman

[Prince55]

Yeah, that would probably be a pretty good one to try with the 187's.
Seems like I remember John Taffin writing about 2400.
I also have a custom mold for the 180 grain WFN and loaded about 5
just to try. They're .360 and I ran them through a Lee .358 sizer and
two of them would chamber in the model 60-.357, but the others I
had to push really hard to get them in the cylinder-it was Crazy.
Maybe I had crimped them a little too heavy. The cases were WW nickel
and some IMR 4227 powder. They were super accurate and I'm sure
that isn't the best powder in shorter barrels. I'm going to try the 2400 next.

Thanks

[warningshot]

2400! 2400 anint fast. 2400 works good enough for those who shoot more on the keyboard rather than in actual low light conditions.

Heavy bullets, short barrel, Bullseye & W231; or W231 & Bullseye.

[GP100man]

The faster powders will not work with the heavies !!!

The pressure curve will sike way up fast !!!

& the heavies need a slow start to get spinn in the barrel before the spike happens or stripping lead will result .

2400 , h-110, lil`gun, 4227 & a not so popular but good for heavies is IMRs sr4759.

As for the chambering goes get a mike & measure the bullets , bet some are springing back after sizing !

Also make dang sure there`s no carbon foulin left from shootin 38s!!
even measure the loaded rounds to see if in fact you are bulgin cases with a compressed load .

Maybe bulging cases by over crimpin some errant longer case , they gotta be the same length when ya put heavy crimps on.

hope this helps even if a little

[WESHOOT2]

I suggest testing Vihtavuori 3N37 and N350.

And Accurate AA9......

[warningshot]

Well let me see....? I suppose when LAPD used a cast 200 grain bullet in their Smith 6 shooters for some 30 years must have been using what? Trailboss, PowerPistol? No, I don't think so.

I never heard from the men who fired these rounds mention unburn powder falling out of fired cases like I experienced when I loaded 38 spl.s with Unique, 2400 and 700X and Red Dot.

After you load up some rounds using a formula handed down to you by men who punched hundreds of 38 spl.s with service revolvers thru car doors and windsheilds and other urban bricken-brac for fun, long before anyone was paid for their participation in penetration tests, then you can write about how fast powders don't work well in snub 38s.

[SL1]

So, he is talking about a MUCH higher pressure level and velocity than the LAPD folks who were "puncing holes in cars with 200 grain cast bullets in snub-nosed .38s."

Just punching a hole in an adversary isn't necessarily going to stop him/her/it from attacking you, especially if it is an upset bear or a mean guy hopped-up on PCP. You really want that hole to be a wide wound channel, which is best produced by a fast-moving bullet with a wide nose (whether cast that way or expanded from a hollow-point).

Buffalo Bore makes a 180 grain LFN cast bullet load for which they post data showing 1302 fps out of a 3 inch S&W J frame. That is faster than handloaders seem to be able to achieve with currently available powders and data. So, it might pay to just buy some of those rounds and skip the load development for the back-woods carry ammo.

As for whether fast or slow powders work best with heavy bullets in short barrels at Magnum pressures, I think Weshoot2 is about right to look for the medium-slow pistol powders like AA-9. Revolvers get MOST of their velocity by the time that the bullet base clears the cylinder-to-barrel gap, but do get some additional velocity from longer barrels. The QuickLOAD program doesn't model the effect of the cylinder gap, so calculations with that program aren't very realistic for revolvers.

That said, QuickLOAD at the SAAMI pressure limit of 35,000 psi showes that the best powders for a 1.6" "barrel" (simulating only the cylinder) are Power Pistol, AA-7, AA-9, AA-5, V-3N38, V-N350, V-3N37, etc. Alliant 2400 is pretty far down the list, below Bullseye and 231, but still well ahead of H-110. Changing the barrel length to 4.6" (to add a 3" barrel to that 1.6" cylinder, but neglecting the cylinder gap), QuickLOAD showes the best powders are AA-7, Power Pistol, AA-9, V-3N38, AA-5, THEN 2400. Increasing the pressure to 45,000 psi (more like the older SAAMI limit of 45,000 CUP) gives similar results for the longer barrel, with faster powders gaining a little after the top 3, and 2400 going back below Bullseye, but not 231. Certainly not definitive results, but clearly support Weshoot2's suggestions based on his extensive experience.

SL1

[GP100man]

True , but OP is not shootin a snubbie , he`s askin `bout 3-4" barreled revolvers .

[vladan]

AA7 is what I use with these heavy cast bullets in .357mag. Burns clean, minimal leading, minimal flash and it is very accurate.

Warningshot, thank you for sharing your experience with .38spl

[WESHOOT2]

I find 3N37 superb under heavy lead (and jacketed) in 357 Magnum.
Good velocity, stellar accuracy, tested in numerous guns.
Absolute lowest flash signature.

[AlaskaMike]

Short barrels do not automatically call for fast powders. Short barrels give their best velocities with the slow burners just like longer barrels. Do they make for a larger muzzle flash? Absolutely. Does that bother the tacticool crowd who fantasize over shootouts in dark spaces? Absolutely. Would it bother me if I needed to draw on a threat while I was cutting firewood or hiking in desolate places as the original poster mentions? Not in the least.

If it were me it would be 2400, and if I were the least bit concerned about muzzle flash I'd follow Weshoot2's excellent powder advice.

[salvadore]

I'm still shooting 358429s over 2400 using 38 cases in my 3" M-60. It's a handful, and I suspect a 187gr would be a bigger handful. I like em in the piney woods now that we not only have black and griz, but because of the really smart people we also have wolves. I bet they'll wanna reintroduce T-rex next.

[Prince55]

Thanks a Bunch for all the helpful tips & advice.
I've measured and checked everything. The cases I bought in a bag of 100
and were supposed to be "once fired". I found a few with split necks and
also there were some 38 Special cases mixed in the bunch. Several were
over length by 8-10 thousandths.
I think the biggest problem is the throats may need to be opened up
slightly as the Cast Performance 187gr. will pass on through but the
180 wfn from the custom mold get stuck tight about 3/4 of the way
through the cylinder.
I'm not really concerned about muzzle flash and sure don't want to be
out there at night.
I'd probably be better off carrying one of my Ruger .41 Magnums with
some of the 250 WFN bullets I have. The smaller framed guns are just
so handy and while lugging 2 old McCulloch Pro Mac chain saws and
other gear the weight adds up quick.
That's some pretty impressive loads from Buffalo Bore with the 180gr
wfn at over 1300 fps from the 3 inch S&W model 60. Wonder what type
of powder they're using and especially the pressure generated ?
I'm loading up a few with the 2400 & AA9 to test out. Sure wish I
had a chrono.
It seems that some of these black bears are getting a lot more
aggressive and losing their fear of humans. Just recently that guy in
Washington State got mauled in his driveway and lost an eye and about
1/2 of his face clawed off.
A couple of years ago a guy bow hunting in the next county got in
between a mother bear & a cub. She came after him and he went up
a tree and she followed. He had dropped his bow but managed to stab
her in the face and eyes with an arrow with razor tipped broadheads as
she clawed at his legs from beneath. He finally ran her off but he lost a
lot of blood and needed many stitches. A good revolver with the right
loads would have sure came in handy to blow her back down the tree.
It'd be mighty hard to keep a grip on the tree trunk with somebody
pumping heavy lead into your face. He was Lucky.
My buddy owns a 400 plus acre farm and an old farm house and about
three months ago went to let his little dog out for a bath room run at
night before turning in. He said when he opened the door that she
started barking wildly and bouncing off the porch. He said he could see
a huge "figure" in the dark and flipped on the porch light and he
said there was a black bear standing looking him in the face from about
12-14 ft. He's 6 ft tall and said he grabbed the dog and shoved her back
in the house to keep her out of the bears face. and he grabbed a .357
model 60 2 inch off the table loaded with hollow points as that was all
he had in that instant. He was able to get it to take off on all fours by
beating on some metal pots there on the porch. He said there was a
cup full of dog food setting there and that's probably what the bear was
after, but once before he had a mother and calf killed while she was
giving birth and he never found out what had done it. I still tell him
how Lucky he was that night.
Wonder what would generate the most speed out of the 3 & 4 inch
.357's with the heavier bullets- the AA9 or the 2400 ?

Thanks Again

[Prince55]

Another question.
I'm using a set of Pacific Durachrome dies for the .38 & .357. I mostly load
.357's and seat the bullet and then crimp in another operation.
I also have a die that has 38/357 F7 on it-I've never used it and think it
may be a Lee Factory Crimp die. I bought some equipment and got it
along with it.
I loaded a few rounds to try with the heavy bullets pretty warm & had
two 158gr Lee cast 158 RF in the cylinder . After I fired 3 of the heavy
bullet loads I noticed that both of the 158 bullets had pulled out of
the crimp groove. The worst one was .025 longer. Had it been a little
more it would have locked up the cylinder in the S&W model 60 - 3 inch.
I had a heavy crimp on them and have never had any trouble before.
Strong recoil with the heavy 187gr Cast Perf. bullets. How can I tell
for sure if my Pacific Durachrome dies are made for taper or roll crimp and
would I be better off using the Lee Factory Crimp die ?


Thanks

[WESHOOT2]

AA9.

Redding Profile Crimp Die.

[m&p45acp10+1]

For the crimping I had a small problem when starting to load for my .41 mag. I followed a friend's advice that worked well. I had to sacrifice a couple of bullets, and cases to do it, but it was worth it.
I kept going down with the crimp till the case buckled enough it would not chamber in the clyinder. I then backed off just a tad. It solved the problem.
As for a recomended powder I would recomend Acurate Arms No 9. "AKA" AA9. It works well for full power loads with jacketed, or lead bullets. With jacketed it gets near the H110 velicity level with less flash. It is very clean burning.