Ban of "Cheater Guns" For hunting?

[4V50 Gary]

Scopes were first extensively used during the American Civil War. Apart from Berdan's Sharpshooters (1 U.S.S.S. and 2nd U.S.S.S.), there were several company sized units who used scoped rifles. These varied anywhere from 16 lbs all the way up to 35 lbs. The Confederates used the Whitworth with the side mounted Davidson telescope.

Use of scopes go back earlier. We know that Capt. Charles Wilson Peale of the Mass (?) Militia had Daven Rittenhouse make a scoped rifle for him during the Revolution. He shot it and it took a while before he sighted it in. Frederick the Great also mentions trying a scoped rifle in his diary. Concerning Da Vinci, I'm trying to find proof that he did (during the siege of Milan).

[BluRidgDav]

Hey Zorro,

Even your description, "Modern in all respects except Propellant!" doesn't bring us up to the current state-of-the-art cheater-muzzleloader. In addition to Pyrodex pellets, some company (I think it's Marlin?) has now designed a bolt-action-in-line that uses modern smokeless powder !!!

But, then again, back in 1800-and-something, there was probably an inventor in China, or Paris, or somewhere, that was experimenting with a propellant that made less smoke, so that makes it "traditional" after all.

Now, if only we could figure out a way to hold the primer, powder, and bullet all together in a self-contained package. Maybe a hollowed-out piece of brass would work?

We could call it the "Davey Crockett" model, or the "Jim Bridger"

[Salt]

http://www.ninety-eight.net/ibha/flint1.htm#top

Here is the URL to the information on how a flintlock can have as fast or faster locktime than a percussion rifle.

[Zorro]

A Cross Referance Between Forums:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=99750

[BIGR]

If you like using the old style muzzleloader more power to you. My first muzzleloader was a T/C .50 CAL. Hawken. Yea with iron sights I was deadly with it at 100 yards. I carried that ol heavy gun for 4 or 5 years and never had a chance to shoot a deer with it. Due to the very small population of deer I never saw one to shoot at. Late 1990'S we lease some land in another part of the state where there are alot of deer. I buy a T/C Black diamond in line for the ease of cleaning and to have a lighter hunting muzzleloader. Yea I put that cheap 3X9X40 scope on the thing and thought I would try my luck with it. During the black powder hunt I shot at a deer at 80 yards. After the smoke cleared I could see no movement from the fallen deer. I was glad that I had made a clean shot on the deer and wondered if the ol hawken would have done the same. This year I shoot three deer with the Black Diamond. They fell in their tracks as if they had been shot with a large centerfire rifle. Yes I am sure shot placement played a part in the clean kills. I have changed my luck with this in line rifle and shoot it well. This discussion is almost like saying a semi auto rifle shouldn't be used to hunt game. Some would say that the single shot rifle should be the only gun for big game hunting. Use whatever gun you feel comfortable using. It is great to live in a land where we have a choice of types of firearms for hunting. Am I too lazy if I buy a pick up truck with an automatic transmission instead of a manual transmission truck. I like my in line muzzleloader and will continue to use it until the wildlife commission bans its use. Have fun with your ol smoke poles and I will do the same with my ultra modern in line blaster.

[Salt]

That modern inline belongs in the modern rifle season. Yes you caqn use it to shoot all the game that is legal in modern rifle season, but leave the primitive firearms season to the primitive firearms.

If you wonder that the Hawkins rifle will kill at 100yds, then you need to check out this Alaska Grizzley hunt with a .54 Caliber flintolock rifle.

http://www.ninety-eight.net/ibha/grizzly.htm#top

[Nodakmarine]

The thing I can't understand is why hunters can use a modern in-line rifle in what is supposed to be a primitive sport but when it comes to other black powder rifles such as a Sharps 1863 or the Smith carbines that are older designs but with a breech loading mechanism, you can't use them in black powder season? I think if those rifles like the Sharps and Smith carbines have to be limited to regular rifle season, this would be something to think about doing wtih the far more modern in-line rifles too. I'm not saying ban their use or anything but limit the type of season they can be used in.

[Zorro]

Maybe it should be Period weapons hunts?

Say a pre flintlock hunt for spears, long bows and matchlocks.

And a Pre Smokeless Powder period hunt for all replica black powder firearms?

[David Park]

I know next to nothing about hunting or blackpowder/muzzleloaders, but I have two comments anyway:

1. Is it so crowded where some of you hunt that the in-line hunters are shooting deer out from under the "traditional" hunters? My relatives who hunt typically hunt on their own land, and it seems like there's enough deer to go around.

2. One advantage to blackpowder/muzzleloaders is that they are often not considered "firearms" under the law. Therefore if someone couldn't own a "firearm" (too young, former felon, banned in the area) they could still hunt with a "non-firearm." The in-line guns seem popular in my area precisely because there's no hassle to own one.

To know where I'm coming from, I'm currently trying to decide if my FAL would work for hunting if I scoped it. When faced with people who want to ban hunting completely, the difference between a general deer season or multiple seasons for each category of weapons seems pretty unimportant.

[Gewehr98]

There's still a big difference between the more modern inline ignition muzzle-loaders and somebody's Remington Model 700 in .308.

You have to stuff the propellant down the bore from the muzzle end, stuff a ball or minie or sabot down on top of the charge, put away the ramrod, prime it, and make damned certain you have the perfect shot before you let go with your one chance. You can't rack the bolt, work the lever, pump the action, pull the trigger again for the follow-up shot from the autoloader, or even open the action to throw another cartridge in the breech. Sounds fairly primitive to me!

Positive ignition from using a shotgun primer isn't a bad thing when tromping through the environmental extremes of the great outdoors. Nor is a stainless or chrome bore a bad idea in a muzzleloader. Last I heard, blackpowder is corrosive. Why not save the investment in said gun by using stainless in the construction? If the arms makers of the Civil War had the means to make and machine stainless, you'd bet your bippy they'd have used it.

Folks piss and moan enough times, and look what happens, the government listens, and we get more onerous gun laws, like Mike mentioned with the folks in Pennsylvania. Yippee.

Next thing ya know, my blackpowder cartridge Rolling Block will be banned from the regular rifle deer season, just because somebody doesn't like it...

[Zorro]

http://primitivearcher.com/

[Vladimir_Berkov]

I think the point is not that people want inlines banned from hunting, but that they do are not the reason why the "primative" season was created. If you want to have multiple hunting seasons, and you want to have a "primative" season then it is obvious that only primative weapons should be used. If the primative season exists just for people to buy stainless steel inlines in order to get a head start on their hunting that year, then it is really pointless.

Personally, I feel there should be one hunting season.

General open season. Use anything you want to hunt. You want to use an AK? Go for it. You want to use a Kentucky rifle? Go for it. Remington 700? Go for it. You might want to have some regulations on caliber, ie no .22 LRs etc, but the type of gun should not matter.

If people REALLY, REALLY want a primative season, then there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to restrict it to historical weapons. A Remington 700ML is not a primative weapon.

[Cornbread2]

In Kentucky and I would think most states the muzzleloading hunting season was started for muzzleloading rifle enthusiasts and buckskinners to have a hunting season to themselves away from modern hunters and modern firearms.

Buckskinners and muzzleloading enthusiasts do not use modern rifles. That is the whole point about buckskinning and shooting muzzleloaders.

Buckskinners shoot muzzleloaders all the time. Some would shoot every day if they could. We shoot more in one week that inline guys do in 10 years.

Inline hunters mostly are not muzzleloader shooters. They only buy the guns to try to hunt in OUR season without bothering to learn to shoot a real rifle. They use what they assume is a better weapon because they think it gives them some advantage over a real rifle.

All the inline does is allow those who can not shoot and are not willing to learn to shoot to be able to hunt with a firearm in our season. This puts more idiots in the woods from NYC that shoot at everything that moves.

People shoot iron sighted modern guns out to 600 yards every day in highpower competition. Some shoot out to 1,000 in the Palma.

Why is it these guys can get hits on a regular basis at 600+ yards but inline shooters must have a scope to hit something the size of a deer at 100 yards?

Why do inline shooters assume you cant kill a deer with a ball.
Unlike a JHP pistol bullet the ball will ALWAYS flatten out or expand. A ball is just as effective as a pistol bullet or in my opinion more so. .50 cal balls recovered from animials are sometimes the size of a quarter. Those that stay in. Most will shoot through and leave a huge exit hole.

Inline hunters are cheating but not with a better weapon. They are cheating by bending the rules so they can hunt in OUR season.

[ms1200]

we DONT need any more laws period.i hunt with a tradition hawken. i figure if someone else wants to hunt with the latest wizbang inline with all the bells and whistles, thats not only their choice but their right. their choice in rifles don't bother me& mine shouldn't bother them.

[BluRidgDav]

Modern hunting is a sport. In order to preserve this sport, it must have rules. Unfortunately, there are some "hunters"; for which ANY gadget that makes it easier for them to be "successful", is a GOOD gadget, and ANY rule that sets a reasonable boundary within the spirit of fair chase, is AN ONEROUS GUN LAW. I feel sorry for them! Every Patriot has the Right, and the duty, to "turn out" with the latest military small-arm in order to defend family and Freedom. But, I won't stand up and defend your "choice" to head out into the game fields with the most modern weapon that technology can provide.

Remember when we used to be known as "Sportsmen"?

When you head out into the woods and fields to hunt, several things should happen: your feet will get wet, your legs will get tired, your hands will get cold, your lungs will breath fresh air, your eyes will behold beauty, and you may or MAY NOT kill the game animal that you "hunted". Your "failures" are as important as your "successes". You will hopefully learn from both and become a more skillful hunter. Or you can go out and buy more gadgets to compensate for your lack of skill. A hundred years ago, Sportsmen voluntarily decided to place limitations on themselves and their weapons, in order to save the remaining game from the excesses of market hunters. Today, will Sportmen once again stand up and save the sport of hunting from the excesses of technology?

[BluRidgDav]

Duplicate post, DELETED.