|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
January 17, 2014, 06:09 PM | #26 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
|
January 17, 2014, 06:18 PM | #27 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Quote:
Last edited by manta49; January 17, 2014 at 06:41 PM. |
|
January 17, 2014, 06:35 PM | #28 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
|
Quote:
It is one of those situations that polarise views and so, I'm leaving it at that.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
|
|
January 17, 2014, 06:58 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2011
Posts: 146
|
I'll call it a good shoot. I also think that, if it was determined that there was no one else in the house. It might have been a good idea to wait him out.
|
January 17, 2014, 07:16 PM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
|
Did the officer think there was someone else in the house, that the guy with the knife was threatening?
Easy enough to find out by asking the woman. If the guy with the knife was the only one still in the house, and no one else was in danger, what was the need for the confrontation? Looked very much like a nervous young officer over reacting to the situation.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” |
January 17, 2014, 07:49 PM | #31 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 6, 2009
Location: Rocky Mountain West
Posts: 3,395
|
Quote:
Oops I forgot I wasn't going to post anymore, sorry.
__________________
16 Pistols, 5 Rifles, 1 Shotgun, no time to shoot them |
|
January 17, 2014, 08:08 PM | #32 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Lets look at this from a different perspective;
When the officer arrived, the female was inside with the subject. She made it clear as she stepped outside that she was afraid he might cut himself with a knife. She stepped out before the officer entered. Lets suppose, for a moment, that this had been some sort of "hostage" situation. That there might have been someone else inside with the subject. Do you think that the officer would have walked inside and attempted to confront the subject as he did ? Having seen hostage situations unfold before, usually it seems (to me) that LE takes the utmost care to avoid confrontation. I feel relatively sure that the officer knew the subject was alone inside and, he even made sure that there was no other way for the subject to get out through a back door, or window. I can understand his wanting to "size up" the situation and, check the status of the subject but, the fact remains that the officer, after ascertaining that the subject was alive, and indeed holding a knife, could have backed out and chosen a different approach. The subject was moving quite slowly and did not "raise" the knife at all. I realize that someone with a knife can cover a lot of ground very quickly if they are inclined to do so, this subject did not seem to be moving aggressively toward the officer in such a manner.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
January 17, 2014, 08:41 PM | #33 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 4, 2008
Location: WI
Posts: 3,656
|
I feel the officer did the best he could given the time he had to make a call. Remember he back pretty much to the door. Received a call about this man threatening to hurt himself possibly others. The woman he had on the porch repeatedly ignored his instructions and got up. She could've become a second assailant and or victim if she entered or he allowed the attack outside.
Those who felt he shot to much. there is a chance he misses. the rounds fail to stop or enrage the target. If he waited to see what happened it could cost him his life. When the target fell he stopped per training.
__________________
E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that. I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph. -Smaug |
January 17, 2014, 08:48 PM | #34 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
|
Statements, testimony, events....
1st;
I'd say waiting for a SWAT/SRT unit or more back up would be smart because there is safety in #s. Also it shows a jury or review panel that you made every effort to follow policy or try to resolve the incident without lethal force. Would a crisis negotiator or SWAT commander be able to resolve the dispute? Who knows? But more officers on scene could have been a deterrent. 2nd; The female subject is not a credible source of information. I've been many, many critical events where some jittery tweaker changes their story every 30sec. That woman in the video should been detained or removed from the scene, questioned then kept away from the house until more LE officers could have cleared it. I've seen first hand where "witnesses" lie about identity, tamper with evidence, flee, become violent, or deny what they say(refuse to file sworn statements). The female in the video was not assisting the police & put them at risk IMO. |
January 17, 2014, 09:28 PM | #35 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 26, 2008
Location: Missouri
Posts: 911
|
Something I haven't seen mentioned, the officer didn't go rushing in. He waited by the door, and called for the guy repeatily. No answer, no compliance, then the officer goes in. So what was he to do? Keep waiting and hope the guy isn't bleeding out? I think the officer did fine.
Also, we are trained to respond to the threat of lethal force with the threat of lethal force. Just like you shouldn't take a knife to a gun fight, you don't take a Taser to a knife fight. I have had my Taser fail on several occasions, all due to the probes not sticking, and in one case, not a wide enough spread. I'm more then glad it didn't happen in a lethal force threat, ie; dude has two knives, type of scenario. Lastly, while on camera it appears the officer had all the time in the world to make a decision, I can tell you with 100% certainty, that officer had a split second to decide what to do. And we don't always get a second chance if we're wrong, and we have families too. |
January 17, 2014, 10:08 PM | #36 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 25, 2001
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,072
|
Tough situation. This video has some value for training and I've already forwarded it to the lieutenant in charge of firearms training (which includes tactics).
|
January 18, 2014, 03:12 AM | #37 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
|
Post #35, tactics....
I disagree with #35.
The police officer could have waited. Knowing the front door area was the only access point of the dwelling(except for the unlikely chance the man would lunge out a window). The officer decides to enter & slowly move towards the subject(who he thinks may be armed). Now, a valid point could be made that the unstable male might stab himself or injury an unknown occupant of the property with the knife or another weapon. The cop's movement might be appropriate under those conditions. I still say, I would have stationed by the doorway(porch) then draw the subject in. Going towards the subject, alone was risky. Talking & being + was a smart tactic too. It showed the police officer was honest & sincere about helping him. |
January 18, 2014, 09:52 AM | #38 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
mrray13 wrote;
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; January 18, 2014 at 10:02 AM. |
||||||
January 18, 2014, 10:23 AM | #39 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
There's a whole bunch of assumptions floating around, made mostly of whole cloth.
Who honestly believes that the car accident was a factor here? It was quite obviously a minor accident. There isn't the slightest evidence that there was any concern whatsoever about injuries or "shock". The guy clearly left the scene. The officer said it was no big deal on the video, telling him "I just need your insurance...." Obviously, he needed more than insurance but the tone and words indicate it's minor. No evidence at all that a person should have been "in shock" or anyone has any injuries. Also, the idea that he didn't wait for backup is false. There is no gap in the video and it is clear that other officers were at the door within moments of when shots were fired. The officer inside called on the radio "I need you in the house NOW." as soon as he saw the suspect. By the time he checks on the deceased, just seconds after shooting, there are two other officers in the house with him. We can't see the suspects face at all. The facial expression and eyes could be telling the officer that this is much worse than what we see. He has 6 years experience. We have poor visibility, low detail on the subject and 2 minute video with the officers arms in the way. This is really simply to me. We have a veteran officer. Any evidence that he has demonstrated a hair trigger in 6 years of police work? No? Why should I think he did here? I'd bet he's never shot anyone else in 6 years. Why now, unless his experience and training are telling him he has to? |
January 18, 2014, 10:30 AM | #40 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Posts: 1,512
|
Quote:
As for entering the woman said he had a knife and she thought he would hurt himself. The officer also didn't know if the woman outside was lying to him. If it were me I think I would have put her in the back seat of the car. He could have been dying from self inflicted wounds or for all he knows the woman stabbed him to death and called them making up a story(I've hadled cases like that). Given the situation I can understand why the officer entered and like is said in previous post^^ that camera is only seeing and hearing in a direct line in front. We can't make out return traffic on the radio. Two officers were called and entered immediatly after shots were fired so we don't actually know when back up was there or if another officer was behind him. |
|
January 18, 2014, 10:45 AM | #41 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.wgrz.com/story/news/crime...tness/4565793/ http://www.policeone.com/less-lethal...t-Whole-Foods/ But the key here is that they are usually backed up by other officers with firearms. Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
|||||
January 18, 2014, 10:49 AM | #42 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 4, 2001
Posts: 959
|
Rule #1: Never call the police to 'save' someone considering suicide; this is not the first case of a family calling the police in that circumstance to have their family member 'saved' from self-harm by swift application of lethal force.
The question here isn't really 'did he need to shoot when the subject advanced' (he, IMHO, did), but 'should he have been there in the first place?' Larry
__________________
He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast. Government, Anarchy and Chaos |
January 18, 2014, 10:54 AM | #43 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Brian Pfleuger wrote;
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
|||||||
January 18, 2014, 11:14 AM | #44 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 7, 2012
Location: Northern California
Posts: 447
|
Quote:
Anyone so stubborn as to think that "shoot him in the leg" (or hand, arm, etc.) is good advice, needs to educate themselves with some FoF training. It's truly amazing what opinions people hold to, absent genuine knowledge or training. |
|
January 18, 2014, 11:16 AM | #45 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 23, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,968
|
this was a justified use of lethal force based on what the officer knew at the time, based on the law, based on his duty to respond/protect/act.
if you base the outcome on your opinion you have already displayed bias. |
January 18, 2014, 11:18 AM | #46 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
Nice point by point avoidance of the actual point.
The point is, virtually every argument made against the officer is either patently false or an unreasonable assumption. He was NOT alone. There were AT LEAST 2 other officers on scene. They had either verbally or by instinct agreed that one would go to check on the suspect. There's *zero* evidence that the accident was severe, caused any injuries or would put anyone in "shock". None. There's amble circumstantial evidence that it was minor, including that no one had any concern about ACCIDENT INJURIES to the suspect. They certainly DID have concerns that he was going to hurt himself. That's why the woman called police or at least the first thing she told the officers on scene and the officer says something like "... It isn't worth it, it's just a crash." I really have nothing else to say. I've seen a thousand of these discussion that turn into point by point break downs of every sentence while ignoring the overarching concepts. I'm not going to do it. Some people will assume the officer did wrong and make up stories to prove it. Others will assume that, absent historical or factual evidence to the contrary, the officer was acting the way his training and experience told him to and make the overriding assumption that the only unreasonable acts were by the person who caused an accident, ran away, threatened to hurt himself, ignored numerous police requests and orders and then, armed with two knives, advanced on a police officer, despite threats of getting shot. |
January 18, 2014, 11:29 AM | #47 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
|
Conditions...
I stated a few times the first police officer/officer who used lethal force could be cleared. Im not critical of his actions based on what he said & did, I'm saying what I would do in that event.
I agree that we can't dissect a short video of a incident we were not involved in first hand. But I also say there are other ways of handling events like this & I still say I would not close in on a subject. Id have him/her come to me or let them become barricaded so a SRT unit or crisis negotiators could resolve it. About 3 months ago, a older man near where I live became distraught & confused during a fight with another man. He got a large knife & made several threats. The other guy & a few tenants called the local PD. The subject ran into his small apt & refused to come out. The patrol officers called SWAT & they negotiated for approx 45min. After that they made a dynamic entry & took the older man into custody without incident. Those tactics can work. They take longer & are more stressful but they can avoid lethal force. |
January 18, 2014, 12:16 PM | #48 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Its just ironic, call the police because you are concern that a loved one will harm themselves. The police respond and shoot them dead.
|
January 18, 2014, 12:25 PM | #49 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
|
January 18, 2014, 01:51 PM | #50 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
It would be nice if life were as black and white as you seem to view it but, there are mentally unstable people who need to be approached differently than a street thug. Some LE agencies recognize that fact and, apparently some do not.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
|
|
|