Leading in 9 mm

oldmansbike · December 22, 2013, 05:39 PM

I have a Ruger P95. My load is 3.7 gr Tightgroup under a 122 gr TC lead bullet. COL is 1.045. I am getting streaks of lead all the way down the barrel after 50 rounds. It's a hard cast bullet bought locally. I shot this load in my sons SR 9 and the leading wasn't as bad as my P95. It's an accurate load out of theP95. Is this something to be concerned about?

Marco Califo · December 22, 2013, 06:03 PM

That is why I only shoot plated or jacketed bullets.

g.willikers · December 22, 2013, 06:06 PM

You might have a slightly oversized barrel requiring a slightly oversized bullet.
What diameter bullets are you using?
They probably should be at least .356, or maybe .357.

oldmansbike · December 22, 2013, 06:49 PM

It's a 356 bullet

papershotshells · December 22, 2013, 07:11 PM

I agree with g. willikers, it sounds like you have an oversized barrel for that bullet.

I had a Springfield XD9mm tactical several years ago that had a slightly oversized barrel too. I slugged it and it measured just OVER .356". It required a bullet sized .357" to shoot good and prevent leading (I cast my own bullets, so sizing to the proper diameter was no problem).

Proper bullet size is even more important with a hard cast bullet like you're using. A softer bullet that is slightly undersized will some times "slug up" or expand to fit the rifling. A proper fitting bullet (or one that slugs up) prevents leading by providing the proper gas seal for the propellant gasses, thereby avoiding gas cutting of the bullet which causes leading like you're experiencing.

Unfortunately, it is sometimes difficult to get bullets of the proper weight and shape for use in a 9mm that are sized to .357", if you use comercial cast bullets and don't cast your own. Depending on where you get your bullets, SOME commercial casters will custom size bullets if you order directly from them. I know one here in Ohio that does (I believe).

As stated by someone else, using plated bullets will stop the leading, even in an oversized barrel. Though they do cost more than plain lead bullets (but usually less than true jacketed bullets).

Papershotshells

oldmansbike · December 22, 2013, 07:26 PM

Thanks all. I think I will switch to a softer bullet or plated and see what happens.

57K · December 23, 2013, 02:34 PM

oldmansbike, if you get some softer bullets, slug your bore. Use a wood or aluminum rod and gently drive a bullet through the chamber and out the muzzle. Then measure its diameter. I agree with g.willikers and papershotshells, sounds like you might have a slightly oversized bore. Your cast bullet diameter needs to be at least .001" larger than groove diameter, or the diameter of the bullet you use to slug the bore. Nothing wrong with plated, but with the way they're priced today I'd rather just buy JHPs.

This is a fairly common issue and one that's pretty easily resolved. Most of the larger commercial bullet casters will sell you bullets sized for your personal needs. Going to a softer bullet that's also .356" may result in even worse leading. Plus, if your bullet is not sealing in the bore, TightGroup exascerbates the problem due to its hot burning nature. Super-heated gasses escape from around the bullets base when it doesn't seal properly which in turn melts lead that adheres to your barrel. Since you're seeing evidence of leading through the entire length of the bore, this is what's most likely occurring. Short of slugging the bore or going to plated bullets, sounds like you need .357" cast bullets. Slugging will tell you exactly what they need to be.

skizzums · December 23, 2013, 04:31 PM

were these tumble lubed bullets or did it have the wax ring around the bottom? but most likely the barrel is oversized, i had a s&w sd9ve that had a barrel of 356, also the hipoint carbine is close to that, the tightest 9 i have is the sccy cpx-1 that has a very tight 355

your grains of 3,7 with TG sounds pretty good, i use 3,9
but i do have more leading issues when using TG over hp38 probably because t has a higher pressure than the hp38/w231, a boresnake works wonders on leading in a pistol BTW

but if you just dont wanna deal with the hassles of leading at all, extremebullets.com makes an excellent plated 9mm thats always in stock and ships out fast for just a few $$ more than lead

Goatwhiskers · December 23, 2013, 05:36 PM

Slug your bore using a soft lead sinker or something like that slightly larger than your bore to get the exact groove size. DO NOT use a dowel rod to drive the slug thru, if it splits it will wedge in with the slug, then you really got troubles. FIT is king, all this stuff about hard alloys is crap, a "hard" bullet will often lead worse than softer alloys. You want a lead bullet to be .001-.002" over groove size. Also, if you have been shooting jacketed bullets, get ALL the copper out before you shoot cast, I'm not sure why but a copper fouled bore will lead on you, get it clean. For what it's worth I don't shoot jacketed in my pistols or rifles and I don't have leaded bores. GW

oldmansbike · December 23, 2013, 06:32 PM

I use lead bullets from the same maker in my 1911 45 and my Vaquero 357 and don't have any problem with leading in those guns so I think it's probably an oversized barrel. I will slug it and see what it measures. Maybe I need to try a different powder too although the Tightgroup load is really accurate. Thanks

Daffy · December 23, 2013, 06:51 PM

Have a p95 also, mine slugs at .356.

You can try going up or down in charge and see if that helps. Don't have any data on 122g but my book shows 125g range from 3.6 to 4.0 and 115g from 3.9 to 4.3. That gives some fiddle room.

One last thought, The folks that put these books together err to the low side, I've put enough rounds both factory and my own reloads through my ruger to know what I and it likes, my own common sense prevails when it comes to working up a load for a given firearm.

+ I have melted commercial lead bullets down cause they just didn't perform for me to my expectations.

Size, Lube, and pressure behind it.

Scimmia · December 23, 2013, 11:24 PM

Try a different powder. It's amazing how many leading threads we get where people are using titegroup.

skizzums · December 24, 2013, 01:07 AM

i agree, all my leadng probs have come from TG, its very fast and hot

Zombie Steve · December 24, 2013, 01:48 AM

While I agree barrel fit is the number one issue with leading, it normally only leaves a streak in the throat and / or the first half inch of the barrel. Once the bullet obturates, no more leading. Because the OP has leading all the way down the barrel, my first guess would normally be a lube problem... but I'm almost positive Titegroup is the culprit here. As mentioned, it has a pretty long track record of not playing nice with lead bullets.

Don't give up on shooting lead. Once you're past the learning curve, you won't pay for plated or jacketed ever again. If you want to do it right, cast your own.

reloader28 · December 24, 2013, 02:22 AM

I agree on undersized bullets. If the barrel is 356 you need 357 or 358.
We shoot 358 in 6 different 9mm, 357 in one and 356 in none.

We even use 358 size in 7 different 380's.

Everything shoots clean but one 9mm and it just barely streaks because of a bad throat I think.

December 22, 2013, 05:39 PM	#1
oldmansbike Member Join Date: February 19, 2010 Posts: 22	Leading in 9 mm I have a Ruger P95. My load is 3.7 gr Tightgroup under a 122 gr TC lead bullet. COL is 1.045. I am getting streaks of lead all the way down the barrel after 50 rounds. It's a hard cast bullet bought locally. I shot this load in my sons SR 9 and the leading wasn't as bad as my P95. It's an accurate load out of theP95. Is this something to be concerned about?

December 22, 2013, 06:03 PM	#2
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	That is why I only shoot plated or jacketed bullets. __________________ ............

December 22, 2013, 06:06 PM	#3
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	You might have a slightly oversized barrel requiring a slightly oversized bullet. What diameter bullets are you using? They probably should be at least .356, or maybe .357. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

December 23, 2013, 04:31 PM	#8
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	were these tumble lubed bullets or did it have the wax ring around the bottom? but most likely the barrel is oversized, i had a s&w sd9ve that had a barrel of 356, also the hipoint carbine is close to that, the tightest 9 i have is the sccy cpx-1 that has a very tight 355 your grains of 3,7 with TG sounds pretty good, i use 3,9 but i do have more leading issues when using TG over hp38 probably because t has a higher pressure than the hp38/w231, a boresnake works wonders on leading in a pistol BTW but if you just dont wanna deal with the hassles of leading at all, extremebullets.com makes an excellent plated 9mm thats always in stock and ships out fast for just a few $$ more than lead __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

December 24, 2013, 01:07 AM	#13
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	i agree, all my leadng probs have come from TG, its very fast and hot __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

December 22, 2013, 06:49 PM	#4
oldmansbike Member Join Date: February 19, 2010 Posts: 22	It's a 356 bullet

December 22, 2013, 07:11 PM	#5
papershotshells Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2013 Posts: 134	I agree with g. willikers, it sounds like you have an oversized barrel for that bullet. I had a Springfield XD9mm tactical several years ago that had a slightly oversized barrel too. I slugged it and it measured just OVER .356". It required a bullet sized .357" to shoot good and prevent leading (I cast my own bullets, so sizing to the proper diameter was no problem). Proper bullet size is even more important with a hard cast bullet like you're using. A softer bullet that is slightly undersized will some times "slug up" or expand to fit the rifling. A proper fitting bullet (or one that slugs up) prevents leading by providing the proper gas seal for the propellant gasses, thereby avoiding gas cutting of the bullet which causes leading like you're experiencing. Unfortunately, it is sometimes difficult to get bullets of the proper weight and shape for use in a 9mm that are sized to .357", if you use comercial cast bullets and don't cast your own. Depending on where you get your bullets, SOME commercial casters will custom size bullets if you order directly from them. I know one here in Ohio that does (I believe). As stated by someone else, using plated bullets will stop the leading, even in an oversized barrel. Though they do cost more than plain lead bullets (but usually less than true jacketed bullets). Papershotshells

December 22, 2013, 07:26 PM	#6
oldmansbike Member Join Date: February 19, 2010 Posts: 22	Thanks all. I think I will switch to a softer bullet or plated and see what happens.

December 23, 2013, 02:34 PM	#7
57K Junior member Join Date: March 2, 2013 Location: Heart of Texas Posts: 788	oldmansbike, if you get some softer bullets, slug your bore. Use a wood or aluminum rod and gently drive a bullet through the chamber and out the muzzle. Then measure its diameter. I agree with g.willikers and papershotshells, sounds like you might have a slightly oversized bore. Your cast bullet diameter needs to be at least .001" larger than groove diameter, or the diameter of the bullet you use to slug the bore. Nothing wrong with plated, but with the way they're priced today I'd rather just buy JHPs. This is a fairly common issue and one that's pretty easily resolved. Most of the larger commercial bullet casters will sell you bullets sized for your personal needs. Going to a softer bullet that's also .356" may result in even worse leading. Plus, if your bullet is not sealing in the bore, TightGroup exascerbates the problem due to its hot burning nature. Super-heated gasses escape from around the bullets base when it doesn't seal properly which in turn melts lead that adheres to your barrel. Since you're seeing evidence of leading through the entire length of the bore, this is what's most likely occurring. Short of slugging the bore or going to plated bullets, sounds like you need .357" cast bullets. Slugging will tell you exactly what they need to be.

December 23, 2013, 05:36 PM	#9
Goatwhiskers Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2009 Location: Batchelor, La. Posts: 579	Slug your bore using a soft lead sinker or something like that slightly larger than your bore to get the exact groove size. DO NOT use a dowel rod to drive the slug thru, if it splits it will wedge in with the slug, then you really got troubles. FIT is king, all this stuff about hard alloys is crap, a "hard" bullet will often lead worse than softer alloys. You want a lead bullet to be .001-.002" over groove size. Also, if you have been shooting jacketed bullets, get ALL the copper out before you shoot cast, I'm not sure why but a copper fouled bore will lead on you, get it clean. For what it's worth I don't shoot jacketed in my pistols or rifles and I don't have leaded bores. GW

December 23, 2013, 06:32 PM	#10
oldmansbike Member Join Date: February 19, 2010 Posts: 22	I use lead bullets from the same maker in my 1911 45 and my Vaquero 357 and don't have any problem with leading in those guns so I think it's probably an oversized barrel. I will slug it and see what it measures. Maybe I need to try a different powder too although the Tightgroup load is really accurate. Thanks

December 23, 2013, 06:51 PM	#11
Daffy Member Join Date: December 24, 2012 Posts: 63	Have a p95 also, mine slugs at .356. You can try going up or down in charge and see if that helps. Don't have any data on 122g but my book shows 125g range from 3.6 to 4.0 and 115g from 3.9 to 4.3. That gives some fiddle room. One last thought, The folks that put these books together err to the low side, I've put enough rounds both factory and my own reloads through my ruger to know what I and it likes, my own common sense prevails when it comes to working up a load for a given firearm. + I have melted commercial lead bullets down cause they just didn't perform for me to my expectations. Size, Lube, and pressure behind it.

December 23, 2013, 11:24 PM	#12
Scimmia Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2011 Location: Eastern IA Posts: 428	Try a different powder. It's amazing how many leading threads we get where people are using titegroup.

December 24, 2013, 01:48 AM	#14
Zombie Steve Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2007 Location: Old Colorado City Posts: 527	While I agree barrel fit is the number one issue with leading, it normally only leaves a streak in the throat and / or the first half inch of the barrel. Once the bullet obturates, no more leading. Because the OP has leading all the way down the barrel, my first guess would normally be a lube problem... but I'm almost positive Titegroup is the culprit here. As mentioned, it has a pretty long track record of not playing nice with lead bullets. Don't give up on shooting lead. Once you're past the learning curve, you won't pay for plated or jacketed ever again. If you want to do it right, cast your own.

December 24, 2013, 02:22 AM	#15
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	I agree on undersized bullets. If the barrel is 356 you need 357 or 358. We shoot 358 in 6 different 9mm, 357 in one and 356 in none. We even use 358 size in 7 different 380's. Everything shoots clean but one 9mm and it just barely streaks because of a bad throat I think.