Lost Technology

[TXGunNut]

I've only dabbled in blackpowder for the last several years and one question has bothered/intrigued me. Almost every serious shooter changed over to smokeless powder about 100 yrs ago and it's my fear that some techniques, materials and manufacturing technology was lost and only in the past 20-30 years have folks (including some on this forum!) begun to recover that technology.
Do you think our replicas and modern versions of components shoot better than what they had in 1890? If not, do you think they ever will?
Don't wanna get bogged down in a comparison of modern vs 1890's powder, suspect that horse has already been beaten to death and beaten some more.

[bedbugbilly]

My 2 cents worth - I don't think the technology has been lost as there has always been those who have shot black powder - that weas part of the reason that the NMLRA was formed - so it wouldn't be lost. There have always been those who have made their own rifles and pistols (single shot). I've been shooting for 45 years and much of what I've learned was taught to me by older individuals who themselves, had shot all of their life. What has changed (as I see it) is the manufacturing of inexpensive guns which allow most everyone to participate in the sport (as opposed to using originals or custom built). As a part of this and states opening up blackpowder seasons, guns have been designed that are not "traditional" (inlines, etc.). They meet the purpose for which they are intended - allowing someone who doesn't want to shoot traditional firearms to shoot blackpowder and enjoy those seasons. What I do find disturbing though, is that in this age of numerical control machining, etc., many of the guns produced have crappy tolerances and like all things manufactured today, shortcuts to cut down on production costs leads to guns that are not the top quality that they could be - some BP revolvers are a good example. I actually think that if anything has been lost, it is the willingness to produce the highest quality possible at a reasonable price - producing arms that have close tolerances, correct hardness for the parts, etc. I've built custom rifles over the years and there are many, many craftsmen and craftswomen who still produce high quality custom rifles that are the equal or surpass what was made 200 years ago. But, they are built one by one by those who have a love for the craft. When cartridges came along, not all of them were dependable - some were slow to change over due to either quality, availability, likes or dislikes. The same as when smokeless powder came along. Some never changed. I shot conventional shotgun when I was a kid hunting - until I discovered blackpowder - it is rare that I ever shoot a cartridge firearm - I just prefer blackpowder. Just my 2 cents worth which probably isn't worth that much!

[TXGunNut]

I didn't think about the hand-built muzzleloaders when I posted the question. My bad. I'm trying to put them out of my mind because after I got my first Track of the Wolf catalog I didn't get much sleep for days. Good point, those rifles are beautiful examples of the art of rifle building. They've benefitted from advances in metallurgy and more precise barrel manufacturing techniques so I suspect they're better than ever.
Agreed on the mass-produced replicas but when the manufacturer thinks the consumer wants cheap, he gets cheap and quality suffers. Would rather not address or acknowledge inlines, it's late and my jammies aren't flame-retardant.

[mykeal]

The replica revolvers have been in production since the mid 1950's, I believe, certainly the late 50's and early 60's, so we've really been at this for quite a while. I think the recent state of the art has reached it's peak already, with the Second Generation Colts and the Ruger Old Army in mass production and the extremely fine quality Feinwerkbau and Hege offerings as well. I'm sure the latter two shoot better than anything mass produced or even custom made in the 1860's, and the latter day Colt and Rugers must at least match the earlier cousins. Alas, the heyday has been passed, however, as the two best examples are no longer being made.

I'm always puzzled by the sentiment that someone can, at a whim, just crank up a factory and make flawless, faultless items for mass market prices. I don't understand people who believe that all it takes is that other person making the decision to do so. The Ruger Old Army is the latest example of the failure of that kind of thinking. It was clearly the best quality mass produced bp revolver being made; at it's demise it brought about $450 a copy, not overly cheap but not outrageous either. But, it failed to produce the results necessary to keep it alive in a modern economy. The gun was the good quality desired, being made by a company expert in the necessary manufacturing techniques required to produce profit making quality guns, and it couldn't be done; we didn't support it in the marketplace. The ones we're willing to buy are the lower quality, less expensive guns. The lesson is clear.

[Hawg]

The gun was the good quality desired, being made by a company expert in the necessary manufacturing techniques required to produce profit making quality guns, and it couldn't be done; we didn't support it in the marketplace. The ones we're willing to buy are the lower quality, less expensive guns. The lesson is clear.

But it doesn't look like anything that ever existed. That's enough for me to not want one.

[darkgael]

Mykeal: I was just looking at that FWB Rogers and Spencer. It appears to be beautifully made. Does it really cost $2400? I was surprised by the price....but that is part of what you are discussing.
Pete

[mykeal]

Hawg - your aversion to the ROA is understandable. The question, however, was not about lineage, but rather the functionality of modern production versus antique black powder guns in their contemporary usage. The ROA can be considered in that context. Another, perhaps even better example is the ill-fated 1858 Remington replica that USFA was planning a couple of years ago. If made to their standards it would have been an excellent shooter, but expensive (on the order of $1000). They concluded, after announcing the plan at the SHOT show, that the market was not viable and scrapped the plan.

darkgael - yes, it costs a great deal of money. I haven't priced them in a while, so $2400 seems high even for FWB, but I suspect the dollar/euro fluctuations have a bit to do with that. I've handled one, never shot one, however. It was simply superb in workmanship; no other word would do it justice.

[Hardcase]

But it doesn't look like anything that ever existed. That's enough for me to not want one.

Heheh, somebody mentioned ROA in front of Hawg

[Slamfire]

Do you think our replicas and modern versions of components shoot better than what they had in 1890?

Our measuring technology and machinery are vastly superior to that used even 60 years ago. Even cheap carbon steels are cleaner and have less slag. The plain carbon steel used in single heat treat and double heat treat M1903’s now is used for rebar. I don’t know what steels are used in replica sharps, M1885’s, rolling blocks, but it would be a foolish manufacturer to use period correct plain carbon steels when alloy steels are available. Alloy steels are so much stronger, ductile, and have an even through hardness.

Even though this is a M1885 action, it was made in Japan. It is highly probable that the receiver is 4140 steel. Vastly superior to Class C type materials used on 03’s, for example.



Just checked on Badger Barrels, their barrels are chrome moly, a material that was not available in 1900. I don’t know just when barrels were made from chrome moly, but I do believe our modern barrels are better.

Always wondered what a Pope barrel measured with an air gage.

I read in Handloader or Rifle, the BPCR crowd have to have loads what shoot within one MOA to be competitive. I would never have imagined cast bullets and blackpowder could do that.

Our stuff is better and our guys have their act together.

[wogpotter]

Lost may be a bit over stated, but I do believe that a lot of skill sets have been mislaid, mainly due to automation & technology. I'm no luddite but I do see a loss of skills & abilities everyone had in earlier times.

Just a few examples:
How many men on here can sew or weave? It's not a "Manly" thing to be skilled in currently.
How many know how to sharpen a knife blade freehand without jigs or other tools, just a stone & a blade?
How about shoe/boot repair in an emergency? anyone skilled in that here?
Reloading ammo. How many use a progressive for "volume" as opposed to "match loads" with concentricity checked & fixed if needed?
How many here shoot long range (beyond 300yds for the purposes of discussion),with just iron sights?

[Slamfire]

Let me add one.

Knots. People just don't know their knots anymore. They use square knots for everything, because that is what they use to tie their shoelaces.

[Doc Hoy]

Heheh, somebody mentioned ROA in front of Hawg

Yeah, That is a mistake I won't make again.

[Doc Hoy]

Bowline is a pretty good one.....up out of the hole, around the tree and back down the hole....

[bedbugbilly]

Knots? KNOTS? How in the heck did we get off the subject and on to KNOTS! Some of you guys sound like you're old "Salts". An old Marine once told me that the only difference between a Swabbie and a Gyrene was that the Marine had enough sense to pull on the rope while the Sailor always tried pushing it? (That was his opinion - not mine. Just thought I'd add that in since we're on the topic of KNOTS). But . . . since you're talking about KNOTS and they are associated with Sailors . . . let's talk about the 1851 Navy . . . . ahhhhhh . . . the most beautiful pistol ever produced . . . ooops! Now I'm getting "off topic"!

For you Ruger lovers . . . I've never even handled one but I know a lot of fellas love 'em . . . I know Hawg . . . they aren't fashioned after anything original . . . but . . . . they obviously have the "quality" to them and appeal to those who are looking for something that has quality and shoots well - the old Louie Sullivan thing of "form follows function". My question is this . . . . if Ruger started producing say . . . a copy of a '60 Army . . . . and the Ruger quality was there . . . . if they were priced at the amount that the ROAs sold for . . . would people buy them? I'm talking if the quality of them far surpassed what Uberti and others are producing . . . or would the market be limited due to the expense of them? I know that I'd buy one, but, a lot of folks don't have the $$ to do it and the Ubertis and Piettas allow them to still participate in the hobby at a reasonable price. Maybe it all goes back to marketing something that is reasonably priced and the quality matches the price? The old "supply and demand" dictating what will and what won't sell? Just my thoughts and worthless ramblings . . . now I have to go read up on KNOTS thanks to you guys . . . . .

[Hawg]

Heheh, somebody mentioned ROA in front of Hawg

Am I that bad? Never mind don't answer that.

If Ruger made a 60 Colt or 58 Remington and stayed true to the originals without Rugerizing the internals like they do their SAA's that would be awesome.

[wogpotter]

since you're talking about KNOTS and they are associated with Sailors

I think you just proved his point. Lots of folk other than sailors use lots of different types of knots. Or at least they used to.

The loss of knowledge about the need for things like knots is what's driving the loss of knowledge & skill, which in turn means the technique gets lost, followed by the technology that it all was evolved to service in the first place.

[Hardcase]

I've still got a couple of marlinspikes and a fid from my Navy days. And I can splice the mainbrace with the best of them! Yar!

[B.L.E.]

I suppose that if it ever comes to us needing to be able to turn a piece of flint into an arrow head in order to survive, we'll relearn that lost art pretty quickly.

Actually it's not a lost art, people still do it today. I watched a white man make one while he was explaining the technique to another bystander.

[starbuck125]

Heheh, somebody mentioned ROA in front of Hawg


at least they did"nt mention the famed .44 cal. 1851 navy colt ....
we all know how much Hawg loves those...

[TXGunNut]

I was thinking about 1850's-1860's vintage C&B revolvers in the shower this morning. Sad but too many birthdays will do that to you. It occurred to me that many originals are/were wartime production and overall quality may not have been very high. The better examples survived, of course, but I suspect the average gun may not have been much better than some of the more "affordable" replicas. Similar pressures, make it fast, make it cheap.
I'm quite familiar with market-driven products. I sell OE automotive parts and many folks want the cheapest part and assume quality is the same, regardless. Funny thing is OE parts are often cheaper than cheap knockoffs. Would like to see that happen in the gun world!
Also occurred to me that some modern handmade flintlock and caplock longrifles may not be replicas in the truest sense of the word. Production never ceased, simply evolved to today's products that to all but the most practiced eye are the same as rifles made 150-250 years ago. Thanks for pointing that out, bedbugbilly. You'll be my first call when I get stuck on something building my first Hawken!

[darkgael]

Not to brag but

How many men on here can sew or weave? It's not a "Manly" thing to be skilled in currently.
How many know how to sharpen a knife blade freehand without jigs or other tools, just a stone & a blade?
How about shoe/boot repair in an emergency? anyone skilled in that here?
Reloading ammo. How many use a progressive for "volume" as opposed to "match loads" with concentricity checked & fixed if needed?
How many here shoot long range (beyond 300yds for the purposes of discussion),with just iron sigh

Yes - I regularly darn my worn socks like my Grandmother used to do. Iron my own shirts, patch my clothes when they need to be fixed.
Knives - what jigs? Two stones and some water. Shaving sharp.
Last year, I made a set on moccasins that I wear regularly - hand stitched them. Looking for a last now - size 12 - so I can try a full oxford lace up from scratch.
I load all my match ammo - .45 ACP for pistol and .223 for Service rifle. The .223, at least, get done on a one at a time basis. My best groups are under 1/2 MOA.
All of my match shooting - and most of my other shooting is done with iron sights - don't have access to a 300 yard range but that would make no difference. Those 1/2 MOA groups - shot with iron sights.

Are you as good a shot with a slingshot as you are with a .22? How well can you throw a knife? A tomahawk? A stone?
Knots? I can tie a square knot and be sure it's not a Granny. I can still tie a sheepshank and a bowline on a bight, a sheetbend, a clove/cow/double half/timber hitch.
Some of us do pay attention to the "older" skill sets. I'm sure that I am not nearly an exception.
Lots of people talk about preparing for teotwawki - you are not prepared if you can't do all of these things.
Pete

[wittzo]

My favorite example of an in production gun and where the "replica" line starts is the Humpback Browning known by various model numbers and names made by at least three different manufacturers for a hundred years. I have an FN Light 12 from the early 50's. Is it a "replica" of a Model 11 from 1900 or are the Japanese Auto-5's replicas.

My double barrel .62 Howdah is either a replica of a mid-1800's Howdah pistol, or a part of a halted production, since it was handmade by the Indians who hand built the originals.

People lose sight of how much value is in things we buy. A $1000 Remington that's of superior quality (it better be if it costs that much) is a bargain compared to an original, if you bring in the economics factor. The cost of living doubles every 10 years. A Remington '58 cost $1.50 on the surplus market a hundred years ago. Add 10% every ten years and it would cost about $1336, not including collectability and artificial inflation. The $1000 newly made Remington would be superior, since the surplus Remingtons might have been used or worn out or rushed during manufacture.

Personally, I don't know why Glocks and other automatics cost more than a lot of tactical rifles, since there's more machining, parts, and materials involved with building a rifle. The injection molding and investmen casting are supposed to make pistols less expensive for the end user. They cost dollars to manufacture, but they're inflating the price to what the market will bear.

BP guns are sculpted and fitted, there's more labor involved with building, so of course high quality is more expensive. Materials are ridiculously cheap compared to the old days, but labor is higher because everything costs more.

[wogpotter]

My hat's off to you for having those skills. As you say handy if something goes wrong, even temporarily.
Yes I can sew & throw & my "party trick" is to tie a bowline one handed while hanging on a rope on a vertical face.

[Doc Hoy]

"Alpha Delta Two Eight."

[Hardcase]

"Alpha Delta Two Eight."

By golly, if the doctor insists, I'll have me a little tot - it's after eight bells somewhere!