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Old November 7, 2008, 06:46 PM   #1
Raider2000
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Range Report Lyman Trade Rifle

Hello all, well this afternoon I had some free time so I went to the range to get a few shots in with my new rifle the Lyman Trade Rifle .50 cal. & let me tell you this rifle shoots wonderfully right out of the box.

Ofcorse I had cleaned it when I got it home & today I ran a dry patch through the bore & a cupple of caps & I was ready to shoot.

My choice load today was 70gr. FFFG Goex .010 Patch lubed with Bore Butter & a cast .495 182gr. Ball & man was I impressed.

The first 2 shots were low & left then right "circled" but I think it was my fault because I was trying a different hold on the rifle at the bench that was not all to comfortable which I think caused those shots, I ran a wet patch then a dry patch then poped a cap after each shot "cept the last 5 shots" & at 50 yards I kept all 11 shots on paper including the last 5 shots where I shot off hand "well my last shot I nicked the paper because it started to get a little dark."

I could not find any of my patches on the ground "found 3 different kinds but none looked like mine so the next time I'll have an old sheet laid out to try & catch them.




First time out with this wonderful rifle & shooting at 50 yards with a good Hunting load with all shots making a score makes me think that it is the start of a wonderful long relationship.
What do y-all think.
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Old November 7, 2008, 07:52 PM   #2
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Nice report Raider! Read my comments here:
Other thread

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Old November 7, 2008, 08:41 PM   #3
Pahoo
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Decent !!!
Your tang should be drilled and tapped and ready for a peep. I mounted one and my groups got even better, than the time before.





Be Safe !!!

Last edited by Pahoo; November 7, 2008 at 08:48 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old November 7, 2008, 09:49 PM   #4
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Ball Size

I really believe a .500 ball would be a lot better. Use the .020-.022 thick patch. If your twist is 1in 66 or so use 100-110 grs. FFF Goex. If your twist
is 1in 48 use about 70 grs.
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Old November 8, 2008, 01:34 AM   #5
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After having such success with my GPR last year, I ordered a Trade Rifle for dad, also in .54cal. It's not quite as accurate as mine but it is a fine shooter. Under two inches at 70yds if I remember right. Great rifles!
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Old November 8, 2008, 05:19 AM   #6
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Craig I know I'm probably preaching to the choir but try some different thickness patches or maybe if you're using a .530 ball try a .535 and experiment with different powder charges.

Raider you might want to try some thicker patches too, maybe some .015's or even .020's
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Old November 8, 2008, 06:01 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawg Haggen
Raider you might want to try some thicker patches too, maybe some .015's or even .020's
Yeah I've thought of that last night after I gave it a nice cleaning & for S&G's I poped one of my hard cast .495's in with the short starter & my .010 patches then pulled it out.
It did cut some small holes in the patch material but the ball I used was hard cast "had #2 hardness & was for an experiment" "would that make a difference" so I wrapped a old brush with some 0000 steel wool & gave it 30-40 passes & then recleaned.

I've got some .015 lubed patches that was given to me last year with some Hornady .490's so I'll try a few of the patches with my .495's.
Would like to keep using the .495's "if I can" because I'd have to get me a new mold for anything else.
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Old November 11, 2008, 01:41 PM   #8
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I was using .530" balls and .010" patches before. I use .535's and .015's in my GPR. Might be worth a try in the Trade Rifle. For now, I've got to figure out why my GPR is shooting so crappy. I added a Lyman receiver sight so it should be shooting better, if anything. I already missed the first week of muzzleloader season, gotta get on the ball. Thanks!
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Old November 11, 2008, 02:11 PM   #9
Raider2000
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Hey Craig:
Check out my shots with the Trade Rifle on my second day.

I used .015 patches & she gotten tighter & quite consistent even out to 100 yards off hand.
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Old November 11, 2008, 02:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
the ball I used was hard cast "had #2 hardness & was for an experiment" "would that make a difference" so I wrapped a old brush with some 0000 steel wool & gave it 30-40 passes & then recleaned.
Maybe, a hard cast ball will be bigger than a pure lead ball. So your .495's are probably closer to .498. I wouldn't think it would make the rifling cut patches tho, just make them harder to load. The steel wool might help but as good as it's shooting I wouldn't worry about it too much. Shoot it enough and it'll smooth itself out. It takes around 500 rounds to make a rifle shoot it's best anyway.
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Old November 11, 2008, 03:49 PM   #11
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The rifle will do much better than that spray group. The .010 patch is useless for any kind of accurate shooting in a B/P rifle. The reason you can not find your patches is they are burning up in the bore.
You will find that you have lead starting to build in the bore from patch failure. I would get some lead remover and scrub the bore clean. The next thing is go to Walmart and get a .015 or .018 pillow tick and cut some patches. You will need a short starter for these loads but they can take the heat.
The Bore Butter is not my choice. I travel and shoot B/P matches in 5 western states go thru 40 lbs. of powder a year. My choice is Hoppees BP Plus wet the patch thru but not dripping. Shooting 5 shot 20 minute relays you have to go thru many shots before cleaning. Bore Butter will load up and make it hard to load after a relay or two.
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Old November 11, 2008, 04:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
I travel and shoot B/P matches in 5 western states go thru 40 lbs. of powder a year.
From the rest of your post I seriously doubt that.
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Old November 11, 2008, 06:52 PM   #13
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Well we may disagree Sir but to call me a liar is very unfair. What I have stated is true. I disagree with your 500 rounds to break in a barrel. But I also understand some folks are only used to imported production guns. If you use Rice or other quality barrels you would have a different take on this subject.

Again disagree but you have no right to call me a lair. What did I state in my post that was wrong? If you know anyone in the Texas State MLs, Wyoming MLs NM MLS AZ MLs I will give you my name to check out. Please go to the Txs. State Mls Web Site Brady State Shoot 2007 the second picture up in the Gallery is me. Now Sir what are your credentials ?
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Old November 11, 2008, 07:12 PM   #14
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Well from talking to HH for some time has given me a respect for him.

& I am mistaken in the lube on the patches, it's that Wonder Lube 1000 that is pre saturated on the patches.

I do use a short starter & the .010 patches were what shot fairly well in my other .50 caliber but this rifle seems to like the thicker patch with my cast ball either my hard cast or my Pure lead ones, & I'm in the process of getting my own punch to punch my own & try some 50/50.
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Old November 11, 2008, 09:42 PM   #15
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You can Mic. the grooves you will find the .010 is not the right patch. It makes little difference if the ball is hard or soft if you are using the right patch. For the best groups in a rifle the "Dead Lead" is best. I shoot number 2 alloy in Smooth Bore Compt. that is about WW lead. If you want you can pull up 08 smooth scores for the Wyoming State where I took 4 places. The point is that both types of lead have there place in B/P Shooting.

I shoot many patches and the punch is slow at best. The process I use is the hole saw with teeth ground off. You can chuck this up in a little cheapo drill press and make patches by the hundreds in a hurry. You can also use a good quality Elect. Hand Drill.
Go to Harbor Freight and get a Hole Saw kit. Grind the teeth off the saw size you need and get it sharp. I use a slab of hard rubber to cut on. With a little practice you can cut them by the pile.
I shoot Texas Dry Patches for 100yd. paper these are .024 sail cloth canvas with Teflon to the bore. These are tough and the hole saw cuts these with no problem. I also use the Walmart Blue Canvas Duct .024 this is a real fine patch in round bottom or radius cut barrels. For this type of patch in 30 minute relays you have time for an alcohol wipe between shots. Try a more fluid patch lube like BP Plus. Pushing gobs of grease like Bore Butter down the rifle and coating the bore is not good. The bore is not for cooking its for shooting keep it clean don't put high spots or tight spots in the bore with this stuff. Even if it did work you can not keep it even in the bore. Your rifle will keep them in the 10 ring at 50 yds don't settle for less.
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Old November 11, 2008, 10:12 PM   #16
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OK Redwing, since you are touting your prowess with a smoothie or muzzle loader, please show me the page where the scores are at, I'm not trying to be smart but since I have no clue of your name & the club you are referring to "outside of state shoots" I have to go by face value.

Now as far as the drill & hole saw idea that does sound like an idea that I'm willing to try, I would guess that the cloth has to be in some kind of holding fixture to keep from bunching up on the blade as you rotate it while cutting the cloth?

I just cast some .495 Ball from Adhesive Wheel Weights "98.5% pure lead" & they measure .4962 with a weight of 182.7gr..
The Hard cast "94.2% lead" .495 balls that I have left measure .4971 & Weigh 180.6gr..

Um so far with this rifle I've yet to have any issues show with the Wonder Lube 1000 lubed patches & may last session I purposly swabbed every 5th shot & didn't notice any high spots or what not, if you are talking about the 50/50 lube, I've used that mixture for over 25 years with no issues.
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Old November 11, 2008, 10:50 PM   #17
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Raider go to the Wyoming State Shooting scores BP of course. Only one name will be repeated 4 times won't be hard to find. It may be you should just keep doing things the way you always have.
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Old November 11, 2008, 11:27 PM   #18
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http://wyomingmuzzleloaders.com/08WSMLAshootresults.pdf

Bruce Schwindt or Mike Dunn?

Quote:
It may be you should just keep doing things the way you always have.
Explain.
You stated that there is a problem with using Bore Butter or the like, please explain the actual issues.
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Old November 12, 2008, 12:53 AM   #19
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I am a little more than tired of the insults. Your pal HH calling me a liar is more than a little off the thread. I did not see you call his hand on that comment. But you want to call all of my post in to question.

One more timeThe heavy grease type lubes will in time build up on the bore as promised. These must be removed from time to time or they will interfere
with the cleaning and accuracy. You should use a product that does not coat the bore but cleans it. I use H#9 Plus it works good enough to shoot thru many relays with out cleaning.
Note on the Wyoming Rifle scores Ron Abbott fired a 5 10X off hand at 100 yds. he uses only orange based liquid soap. I do not know of any shooters who follow the western matches that use grease. By the way I was on the road 9 Mos. last year shooting in 5 states. I will be glad to schedule a shoot with you at your local club in Virginia. I will be in NC in March for a meeting with an International Shooting Group. I pay all my own expenses we shoot for $1,000.00 all winnings go to support the shooting sports. I like for mine divided $500.00 to club that holds the shoot. $500.00 to the NMLRA or the NRA. If you want proof here it is for $1,000.00.
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Old November 12, 2008, 12:58 AM   #20
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Oh the match, How about 4 targets at 50 yds. 6 Bulls and 4 targets at 100 yds.8 Bulls. I will accept your in put on the match if you want to raise some club money.
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Old November 12, 2008, 04:39 AM   #21
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Quote:
Again disagree but you have no right to call me a lair. What did I state in my post that was wrong?
For one thing even a dry patch wont burn up in a barrel and I've never seen Bore Butter load up and make anything hard to load. You are right about one thing. I've never had a high quality muzzleloader barrel and I'm sure they are lapped before they're released for sale so wouldn't need a break in period. However the guns we're talking about here are high production guns that are made as cheaply as possible and do need to either be lapped or have a break in period. Now maybe you are what and who you say you are, I dunno. Just from your other post it doesn't sound like it. Also when you made that post it was your first post in the bp forum. Seems like someone with your credentials would have had some input here before now. My only credentials are 39 years of shooting bp. I don't claim to know everything but I know what I know.
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Old November 12, 2008, 06:20 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redwing 40
I am a little more than tired of the insults. Your pal HH calling me a liar is more than a little off the thread. I did not see you call his hand on that comment. But you want to call all of my post in to question.
One more timeThe heavy grease type lubes will in time build up on the bore as promised. These must be removed from time to time or they will interfere
with the cleaning and accuracy. You should use a product that does not coat the bore but cleans it. I use H#9 Plus it works good enough to shoot thru many relays with out cleaning.
Note on the Wyoming Rifle scores Ron Abbott fired a 5 10X off hand at 100 yds. he uses only orange based liquid soap. I do not know of any shooters who follow the western matches that use grease. By the way I was on the road 9 Mos. last year shooting in 5 states. I will be glad to schedule a shoot with you at your local club in Virginia. I will be in NC in March for a meeting with an International Shooting Group. I pay all my own expenses we shoot for $1,000.00 all winnings go to support the shooting sports. I like for mine divided $500.00 to club that holds the shoot. $500.00 to the NMLRA or the NRA. If you want proof here it is for $1,000.00.
The reason I commented what I did to you is that you said things that didn't make since & that you seemed to get argumentive when HH made his comments to you.

Now as far as you & I in a shooting contest, I'm sure you probably could win because you obviously have more expensive custom made rifles than what I can ever afford, & if you are who you say you are, you have a lot more experience punching paper than I & know what load works best for a given rifle & distance than I do, I on the other hand shoot for pure enjoyment & education I may not have a special load for that 50 yard shot & then one for a 100 yard shot but once I have a weapon ready to take a life for my freezer or the freezer of a friend I have enough knowledge about that weapon to know it can take that life cleanly at a comfortable range.

You see I too am just a Po Country Boy that just enjoy shooting & the great outdoors & teaching the finer aspects of those to our younger generation so that they can enjoy them as well but from what I've seen out of you from the few posts that you have sumitted strenghtens my reason for not being in a club like you are in because you are easy to temper & you have a fat head, when someone in your position should be giving advice with proof of your claims instead of badgering & touting how good you are.

I've posted these 2 threads to get knowledge to see what my next step should be & other threads that I've posted in or started was either for the same or to express what my knowledge may help others.
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Old November 12, 2008, 10:02 AM   #23
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HH I think you need to spend more time on the range. You have been at this 39 years and still shooting imported barrels now thats a record.

HH if you will go to Muzzleloader.com forums look up redwing post you will find about 1,400. With my shooting thats all I have time for.

Raider, You can't run with the big dogs if you still pee like a puppy.

This is the end of my posting with you fellows. HH you don't own this forum because you have posted a lot of very poor information on it.:barf:
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Old November 12, 2008, 10:10 AM   #24
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HH why don't you go on one of the BP forums and post a topic on how you never burned a thin or dry patch in 39 years. You can get away with this crap with these kids like Raider. You had better stick with the key board and leave the rifles to others.
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Old November 12, 2008, 10:44 AM   #25
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There is a reason why there is less intrest in OUR sport.

It's Guys like you who think that since you can afford the expensive gear & can shoot as often as you do that unless others are at the same level as you they are not worth the Air that they rob from you.
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