Need help with a mouse gun! - Page 3

AZAK · January 12, 2009, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Wound ballistics for the .25 are poor anyway... Putting a thick leather jacket, winter lining, and other layers clothes in front of it, you might as well be using a good pellet gun.

Move up to an Airweight .38 +P.

Most handgun calibers are not known for "fantastic" wound ballistics; use a rifle or shotgun if you want those.

Different carry is often dictated by different requirements. I normally carry a G29 10mm, which does have a bit better "ballistics" than a .38. However, there are times that even a "sub-compact" Glock is way too big. And times when my .38 is way too big.

Mouse guns are for ease of carry, i.e. tighter dress slacks, shorts, when you really need deep concealment. I am taller than average height, own a S&W .38 snubby that always rides in an OWB holster; does not fit in the pocket holster in my pocket worth a darn.

I agree with Bill D. that pocket carrying a .38 is not "the end all" for a lot of folks.

I shoot .25 as one of my calibers, and would not want to be shot nine times COM even with my Winter clothing, and I live in Alaska; has not been above -20 for weeks, just a few layers of clothing.

Would I rather have the shotgun/rifle/10mm? Yes.
Have I carried pretty much daily, even if this means a .25 on occasion? Yes.

Larry Spencer · January 12, 2009, 08:46 AM

AZAK: "Most handgun calibers are not known for "fantastic" wound ballistics; use a rifle or shotgun if you want those."

Why are you now talking about a rifle, shotgun or 10mm? The discussion is on small guns. You said a .38 is too big for your pocket - I doubt a rifle will fit in it either.

Read this first, then never carry anything smaller than a .38spl/.380/9mm.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Then ditch the .25 at a gun buy-back program.

.

akr · January 12, 2009, 10:29 AM

MY P11 fits okay in my front pocket with a holster made by Don Hume. That's wearing blue jeans.

michael t · January 12, 2009, 02:33 PM

Ok all you people that been killed or maimed by a 25 . it didn't happen Return to your normal life. A 25 auto in jell (Ball ammo )went 13 to 16" FBI say 12" remember . In Nam I shot thru our issued flack vest at about 10' with a 25 another crew chief had. Don't bet on a leather jacket.
I have a Made in italy Beretta 950 no safety made to carry hammer down safely. manual even approves It the US model that have the lawyer safety.
I have a NAA 22/22 mag revolver Please the 25 can be emptyed 9 aimed rounds before you can even think about 5 rounds of even the 22LR . 22LR NAA won't out penterate the 25 ball either HP or Solid Check NAA own figures for their pistols.
Beretta is the Best 25 on the market I have 3 and will carry now and then.

AZAK · January 12, 2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

then never carry anything smaller than a .38spl/.380/9mm.

Emphasis by AZAK

I think that the operative word here is "carry". Great for those who like/can comfortably and confidently pocket carry a .38 and do. Some can't/won't/don't with the .38.

While I would prefer to carry larger than a .38, there are occasions where even pocket carry of a .38 is just not prudent. Part of concealed carry is concealed carry. And I say this as not a fan of .40 and lower. (Personal choice.) Carrying concealed is pretty much a trade off somewhere. Like you said:

Quote:

You said a .38 is too big for your pocket - I doubt a rifle will fit in it either.

So, pocket carry of a .22, .25 or .32 that is actually carried has far better "wound ballistics" than any other caliber left at home.

AZAK · January 12, 2009, 02:47 PM

I have read this previously, including:

Quote:

THE HUMAN TARGET
With the exceptions of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord, the concept of reliable and
reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wounds to the torso is a myth.27

Quote:

The human target can be reliably incapacitated only by disrupting or destroying the brain or upper
spinal cord. Absent that, incapacitation is subject to a host of variables, the most important of which are
beyond the control of the shooter.

Quote:

CONCLUSIONS
Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit.
Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those
individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival
determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

I do recognize your point, that is why I normally carry 10mm.

Quote:

No law
enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none
have ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically
large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough.

A bird in the hand...

Larry Spencer · January 12, 2009, 04:14 PM

Michael T & AZAK,

I have learned a lot……

I did not know that .25 auto ammo is a good self-defense round.

And I certainly did not know that .25 auto-pistols are known far and wide for their reliability. (Even in pocket lint)

I did not know that. I will look at some .25s this week-end for sure.... and put my 642 up for sale soon.

Thanks for the info.

ChicagoTex · January 12, 2009, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Michael T & AZAK,

I have learned a lot……

I did not know that .25 auto ammo is a good self-defense round.

And I certainly did not know that .25 auto-pistols are known far and wide for their reliability. (Even in pocket lint)

I did not know that. I will look at some .25s this week-end for sure.... and put my 642 up for sale soon.

Thanks for the info.

Sarcasm, a deeply helpful and intelligent debate tactic...

KyJim · January 12, 2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

I will look at some .25s this week-end for sure.... and put my 642 up for sale soon.

I feel compelled to help you. I'll find a Lorcin .25 and trade for the 642. You'll have to pay the postage and FFL fees since you're trading up, however.

I guess you just don't understand or don't want to. Nobody thinks a .25 is an ideal defensive round or even as good as a .38 special. Most often when I carry mine, it's because I have a choice of carrying a .25 or nothing. A J-frame is a heck of a lot thicker than my Beretta 950.

Bill DeShivs · January 12, 2009, 08:24 PM

Larry apparently thiks highly of his opinion. What works for Larry doesn't always work for everyone else, but Larry doesn't understand that, nor does he care. It doesn't matter to Larry that some of (probably most of) the respondents have an awful lot of experience with guns. Larry has his mind made up, and no one will confuse him with facts. My bet is Larry won't last long on too many gun forums.

gglass · January 12, 2009, 08:29 PM

If you can find one of these hot little numbers, I would highly recommend a Ruger LCP. It is far more than a belly-gun. I can shoot 5" patterns out to 15 yards quite easily. I am comforted by the ballistics of the .380 acp round... anything less and I might not feel as protected.

The .380 Automatic cartridge is slightly less effective than the .38 Special, but gives users of “mouseguns” the option to shoot expanding bullets from a 9mm x 17mm cartridge.

Mine has been through a few hundred trouble-free rounds so far.

My little pocket buddy:

Larry Spencer · January 12, 2009, 09:05 PM

Chicago Tex,

Sorry. I thought my conclusions about the .25 were accurate from the posts I read in this thread. I simply assumed that all the statements made about the .25 in this thread were truthful.

I bought a new .25 Beretta (I believe it was a Tomcat) in 1975. Tried several brands of ammo. Fired hundreds of rounds, through it, took it back to the dealer several times, but finally gave up on it, when I found out it was a common problem with that model. It was a true Jam-omatic. At least one in 50 rounds. I said never again.

So I should take it that .25 Beretta and the other .25 autos have now eliminated their previous inherent propensity to FTF, FTE, stovepipe etc?

Larry Spencer · January 12, 2009, 09:11 PM

gglass,

That is a one beautiful weapon. After much research and shooting the LCP and the Kel-tecs, I narrowed it down to the LCP and the 642. Since I have an SP101 that (ammo) helped me with my decision.

Bill DeShivs · January 12, 2009, 09:14 PM

The Beretta 950 .25 is one of the most reliable .25s made. The model 20 was basically a double action model 950. The later model 21 was less reliable. The Tomcat is a .32, and it was not made in 1975.
People have carried .25s for over 100 years. They work as well as other guns. The .25 is not the best choice for defense, but it works.

Larry Spencer · January 12, 2009, 10:09 PM

Bill DeShivs,

Thank you for your reply.

I said in my post that "I believed it was a Tomcat" - Could not remember. Correction. I suppose “Didn’t want to remember” would be much more accurate.

But it was a .25 Beretta. And it was a Jam-omatic.

Even the dealer, who’s still selling guns today, said they were inherently jam prone and unreliable.

However, I am pleased to say I own several very reliable semi-autos today... all made by Herr Gaston.

IMTHDUKE · January 12, 2009, 10:41 PM

Who is Larry?

AZAK · January 13, 2009, 03:08 AM

Quote:

The Beretta 950 .25 is one of the most reliable .25s made.

I have never had any problems with mine. Pull the trigger, it goes bang. Clean it up after a session, next time that I pull the trigger, it goes bang.

LanceOregon · January 13, 2009, 11:44 AM

Quote:

I was picked for a security, bodyguard detail in the San Francisco Area that involved close, constant contact and appearances by the two principals. The principals demanded that weapons not be visible by anyone close. This was non-negotiable and is harder to do than you might think in a tuxedo. The outer perimeter had no restrictions. Long story short, I picked one of the two smallest guns I have in my arsenal and with your help went with my Beretta 950 Jetfire in 25 ACP. My carpal tunnel and trigger finger prevented me from using my Walther PPK/S and it is much more visible than the Jetfire.

Many of the handguns I have I can no longer shoot due to my problems. Normally I don’t do work like this but the money was way too good! If I could meet each of you that contributed your vast knowledge I would buy you a drink.

Man alive, you are being paid a good salary to protect the life of someone with a .25 ACP Mouse Gun??????

So you are going to reliably stop a determined would be assassin with rounds that generate around 66 ft/lbs of energy? You will have to score 6 hits on the attacker in order to just equal the energy in one top level 9mm +P load.

OMG, I would not pay 2 cents for that level of protection!!! Ha ha!!

Only in San Francisco could this possibly happen.

I wonder how the US Secret Service is able to protect the President of the United States at all of those formal events that he attends. Perhaps they use .25 ACP Mouse guns to protect his life too.

.

IMTHDUKE · January 13, 2009, 11:46 AM

I thought what you just put in words

ChicagoTex · January 13, 2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

The principals demanded that weapons not be visible by anyone close. This was non-negotiable

In private security, the clients set the terms. They're stupid terms, and ones I might be personally inclined to walk away from, but that doesn't change things. It's not the OP's fault he's carrying a .25, it's the clients', and when push comes to shove they ought to get the protection they demanded and paid for...

LanceOregon · January 13, 2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

The .25 is not the best choice for defense, but it works.

This situation being discussed in this thread is not for personal defense, however. It is for use by a bodyguard to protect an important person from attack.

.

LanceOregon · January 13, 2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

In private security, the clients set the terms. They're stupid terms, and ones I might be personally inclined to walk away from, but that doesn't change things. It's not the OP's fault he's carrying a .25, it's the clients', and when push comes to shove they ought to get the protection they demanded and paid for...

So it is impossible to effectively conceal anything bigger than a .25 ACP mouse gun while wearing a Tux at a formal event? I find that premise extremely difficult to swallow, to say the very least.

.

ChicagoTex · January 13, 2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

So it is impossible to effectively conceal anything bigger than a .25 ACP mouse gun while wearing a Tux at a formal event? I find that premise extremely difficult to swallow, to say the very least.

According to the OP, that is his experience. Maybe his tux is too tight, maybe his frame isn't conducive to concealment. I don't know and I don't care - that's not the subject of this thread and I refuse to debate what is and is not concealable on a person I've never met wearing a garment I've never seen. Would *I* personally find a way to carry something more persuasive? You're damn right I would, but I'm not the subject of this thread and I won't project myself on the OP.

Larry Spencer · January 13, 2009, 03:16 PM

Yes, the .25 is a mouse gun. And it is great on mice.

KyJim · January 13, 2009, 05:29 PM

As you can see, REAL mice don't carry .25s. They carry 1911s:

January 12, 2009, 08:46 AM	#52
Larry Spencer Member Join Date: January 9, 2009 Posts: 66	AZAK: "Most handgun calibers are not known for "fantastic" wound ballistics; use a rifle or shotgun if you want those." Why are you now talking about a rifle, shotgun or 10mm? The discussion is on small guns. You said a .38 is too big for your pocket - I doubt a rifle will fit in it either. Read this first, then never carry anything smaller than a .38spl/.380/9mm. http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf Then ditch the .25 at a gun buy-back program. . Last edited by Larry Spencer; January 12, 2009 at 12:54 PM. Reason: spelling

January 12, 2009, 10:29 AM	#53
akr Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,379	MY P11 fits okay in my front pocket with a holster made by Don Hume. That's wearing blue jeans. __________________ Http://www.nationalgunforum.com NRA Lifetime Member

January 12, 2009, 02:33 PM	#54
michael t Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: Out back Ky Posts: 4,044	Ok all you people that been killed or maimed by a 25 . it didn't happen Return to your normal life. A 25 auto in jell (Ball ammo )went 13 to 16" FBI say 12" remember . In Nam I shot thru our issued flack vest at about 10' with a 25 another crew chief had. Don't bet on a leather jacket. I have a Made in italy Beretta 950 no safety made to carry hammer down safely. manual even approves It the US model that have the lawyer safety. I have a NAA 22/22 mag revolver Please the 25 can be emptyed 9 aimed rounds before you can even think about 5 rounds of even the 22LR . 22LR NAA won't out penterate the 25 ball either HP or Solid Check NAA own figures for their pistols. Beretta is the Best 25 on the market I have 3 and will carry now and then. __________________ Certified Armed Infidel Colt Defender ,Colt Mustang ,Dan Wesson CBOB, PPK/S, American Classic 1911,Bersa Thunder 380 http://bersachat.comHome of Bersa http://www.metroarms1911forum.com

January 12, 2009, 08:24 PM	#60
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	Larry apparently thiks highly of his opinion. What works for Larry doesn't always work for everyone else, but Larry doesn't understand that, nor does he care. It doesn't matter to Larry that some of (probably most of) the respondents have an awful lot of experience with guns. Larry has his mind made up, and no one will confuse him with facts. My bet is Larry won't last long on too many gun forums. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

January 12, 2009, 08:29 PM	#61
gglass Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 638	If you can find one of these hot little numbers, I would highly recommend a Ruger LCP. It is far more than a belly-gun. I can shoot 5" patterns out to 15 yards quite easily. I am comforted by the ballistics of the .380 acp round... anything less and I might not feel as protected. The .380 Automatic cartridge is slightly less effective than the .38 Special, but gives users of “mouseguns” the option to shoot expanding bullets from a 9mm x 17mm cartridge. Mine has been through a few hundred trouble-free rounds so far. My little pocket buddy: __________________ "...shall not be infringed." (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states). Last edited by gglass; January 12, 2009 at 08:43 PM.

January 12, 2009, 04:14 PM	#57
Larry Spencer Member Join Date: January 9, 2009 Posts: 66	Michael T & AZAK, I have learned a lot…… I did not know that .25 auto ammo is a good self-defense round. And I certainly did not know that .25 auto-pistols are known far and wide for their reliability. (Even in pocket lint) I did not know that. I will look at some .25s this week-end for sure.... and put my 642 up for sale soon. Thanks for the info.

January 12, 2009, 09:05 PM	#62
Larry Spencer Member Join Date: January 9, 2009 Posts: 66	Chicago Tex, Sorry. I thought my conclusions about the .25 were accurate from the posts I read in this thread. I simply assumed that all the statements made about the .25 in this thread were truthful. I bought a new .25 Beretta (I believe it was a Tomcat) in 1975. Tried several brands of ammo. Fired hundreds of rounds, through it, took it back to the dealer several times, but finally gave up on it, when I found out it was a common problem with that model. It was a true Jam-omatic. At least one in 50 rounds. I said never again. So I should take it that .25 Beretta and the other .25 autos have now eliminated their previous inherent propensity to FTF, FTE, stovepipe etc?

January 12, 2009, 09:11 PM	#63
Larry Spencer Member Join Date: January 9, 2009 Posts: 66	gglass, That is a one beautiful weapon. After much research and shooting the LCP and the Kel-tecs, I narrowed it down to the LCP and the 642. Since I have an SP101 that (ammo) helped me with my decision.

January 12, 2009, 09:14 PM	#64
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	The Beretta 950 .25 is one of the most reliable .25s made. The model 20 was basically a double action model 950. The later model 21 was less reliable. The Tomcat is a .32, and it was not made in 1975. People have carried .25s for over 100 years. They work as well as other guns. The .25 is not the best choice for defense, but it works. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

January 12, 2009, 10:09 PM	#65
Larry Spencer Member Join Date: January 9, 2009 Posts: 66	Bill DeShivs, Thank you for your reply. I said in my post that "I believed it was a Tomcat" - Could not remember. Correction. I suppose “Didn’t want to remember” would be much more accurate. But it was a .25 Beretta. And it was a Jam-omatic. Even the dealer, who’s still selling guns today, said they were inherently jam prone and unreliable. However, I am pleased to say I own several very reliable semi-autos today... all made by Herr Gaston.

January 12, 2009, 10:41 PM	#66
IMTHDUKE Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2004 Location: Sweet Home Alabama Posts: 1,475	Who is Larry? __________________ http://www.treasureislandbedandbreakfast.com Ed Brown Alpha Carry\| Sig P238, P938, P232, 1911 C3 \| Colt Defender, Mustang Pocketlite, 1911 \| Rohrbaugh R9 \| Browning, Buckmark 22LR(suppressed) \| Kahr PM9 Black Rose \| S&W\|M&P C.O.R.E RMR Trijicon \| Dan Wesson ECO

January 13, 2009, 11:46 AM	#69
IMTHDUKE Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2004 Location: Sweet Home Alabama Posts: 1,475	I thought what you just put in words __________________ http://www.treasureislandbedandbreakfast.com Ed Brown Alpha Carry\| Sig P238, P938, P232, 1911 C3 \| Colt Defender, Mustang Pocketlite, 1911 \| Rohrbaugh R9 \| Browning, Buckmark 22LR(suppressed) \| Kahr PM9 Black Rose \| S&W\|M&P C.O.R.E RMR Trijicon \| Dan Wesson ECO

January 13, 2009, 03:16 PM	#74
Larry Spencer Member Join Date: January 9, 2009 Posts: 66	Yes, the .25 is a mouse gun. And it is great on mice.

January 13, 2009, 05:29 PM	#75
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	The answer As you can see, REAL mice don't carry .25s. They carry 1911s: