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Old April 13, 2017, 07:42 AM   #26
Lohman446
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Loosedhorse is correct (my bad). I did not think this was the case but just tried it. With the hammer down and the safety on the slide cannot be manipulated. Guess I was not as familiar with my own carry gun as I thought I was.
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Old April 13, 2017, 10:59 AM   #27
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Since the P238/938 and their cousins from Colt and Kimber are going to probably be much more popular with 1911 owners than with any other demographic, I find the ability to rack the slide with the safety engaged to be of very dubious value.

One, nobody expects to be able to do so.
Two, it creates the possibility of having the gun loaded, UNcocked and locked, and what a surprise that would be if you needed the gun?
Three, the shape and positioning of the thumb safety are much compromised relative to ease of use, in order to allow racking with the safety on.

I'd gladly give up the load-with-safety-engaged feature for an improved safety lever; higher and wider.
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Old April 13, 2017, 11:37 AM   #28
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I carry mine cocked and locked in my pocket or I use the holster that was supplied with the gun. I actually prefer the holster. No frills but it does work.
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Old April 13, 2017, 01:46 PM   #29
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One, nobody expects to be able to do so.
You get used to it pretty fast. I like the feature. After cleaning or dry firing, you cock it and put the safety on, then load a magazine, chamber a round, and it is ready to go without ever taking the safety off.
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Two, it creates the possibility of having the gun loaded, UNcocked and locked, and what a surprise that would be if you needed the gun?
Not sure how you would get there without lowering the hammer with the trigger. Maybe you missed that the slide doesn't move with the hammer down and the safety on? If I understand your concern correctly, that obviates it.
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Three, the shape and positioning of the thumb safety are much compromised relative to ease of use, in order to allow racking with the safety on.
I have no problem manipulating the safety. I feel like it is kind of in proportion to the rest of the gun, and thus feels like I expect. I'm not sure how the racking feature affects the shape and positioning of the safety lever. What am I missing about this argument?
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Old April 13, 2017, 02:21 PM   #30
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The safety is located and shaped seemingly with the primary concern that it doesn't get in the way of racking the slide; it's horizontal when engaged, and below horizontal when disengaged.
I'd prefer that it be up when engaged, where it easily falls under the thumb on the way down to a firing grip, and no lower than horizontal when disengaged, so that it doesn't have to be depressed lower than my thumb rides naturally when shooting.

If I'd never owned a handgun in my life, I might be thinking, "Wow, cool, you can unload and load with the safety engaged!", but my take is, "What's the value in that - compared to the safety being handier to my thumb - when my finger is off the trigger when I load and unload??"

I accept that anyone might prefer anything that someone else doesn't like (pickles, for instance), but still don't see advantages to the non-1911 aspects of the manual of arms, while conceding that it might only an issue for me because of my familiarity with the 1911; you make a gun that looks and generally operates like a 1911 and you're bound to get yeah/nay regarding changes.
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Old April 13, 2017, 04:23 PM   #31
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I wish the P938 had a back strap safety mechanism, like the 1911.
Me too.
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Old April 14, 2017, 05:28 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loosedhorse
Condition 1, cocked and locked. The way it was designed to be carried.

Train to make sure the safety is taken off "automatically" as the gun comes on target.
Actually, the original design wasn't meant to be carried locked and cocked. 1911's were designed to be carried with the hammer down (Condition 2). The by-product of use is how we evolved into Condition 1.

I love my P938; my favorite sub-compact semiauto and one that gets carried the most. There's a video floating around about a tragic story where a father and his son were killed because he was carrying his pistol without a round in the chamber and he couldn't get it into action fast enough. If you don't carry with a round in the chamber, you might as well not even carry. The time it takes you to draw and rack, you could just leave or find cover; however, when you need to draw immediately to engage or engage from an awkward position, you will need that first round chambered.

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Old April 14, 2017, 08:19 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
Actually, the original design wasn't meant to be carried locked and cocked. 1911's were designed to be carried with the hammer down (Condition 2). The by-product of use is how we evolved into Condition 1.



I love my P938; my favorite sub-compact semiauto and one that gets carried the most. There's a video floating around about a tragic story where a father and his son were killed because he was carrying his pistol without a round in the chamber and he couldn't get it into action fast enough. If you don't carry with a round in the chamber, you might as well not even carry. The time it takes you to draw and rack, you could just leave or find cover; however, when you need to draw immediately to engage or engage from an awkward position, you will need that first round chambered.



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As has been pointed out, the P938 isn't exactly a true 1911, so what was the original carry method for a 1911 isn't necessarily the case for the P938. In guessing if you call SIG or check in the manual either would say to use cocked and locked. But it would be interesting to check for certain.


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Old April 14, 2017, 10:15 AM   #34
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Thanks for the elaboration, RickB - I understand your concerns better now. My only real answer is that the comparison to 1911s is overstated. I don't honestly think it was meant to be a "miniature 1911" like people describe it, and it in fact is not. It is a SA only pistol meant to be carried cocked and locked, but the comparison largely ends there, as you have aptly pointed out. I find the safety to be pretty intuitive in clicking down as I take my grip, but I am not a dedicated 1911 guy, so my initial bias is different than yours. My affection for my little Sigs is undiminished, but your observations make sense from your somewhat different perspective. Both points of view should be considered by someone considering a purchase.
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Old April 14, 2017, 10:47 AM   #35
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In guessing if you call SIG or check in the manual either would say to use cocked and locked. But it would be interesting to check for certain.
Manuals usually say things like, "don't load the gun until you are ready to shoot", being more concerned about the gun discharging when you don't want it to, then the gun being in an appropriate ready condition when you do!

Some years ago, Galco redesigned all of their thumb-break holsters for single action pistols so that the break would snap closed on a lowered hammer, and though they will still work with the hammer cocked, the fit isn't as good; I can't imagine that they got a lot of customer feedback begging for the change, and more likely it's to be consistent with, "don't load your gun until you are ready to shoot".
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Old April 14, 2017, 06:12 PM   #36
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The 938 should be carried locked and cocked like any other 1911-stye pistol. I carry mine in a pocket holster in a front pocket.
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Old April 17, 2017, 09:30 PM   #37
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Mine is always carried cocked and locked.
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Old April 18, 2017, 09:36 AM   #38
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I have pocket carried the P938 for about three years. I use a Galco pocket holster and have used a Soft Armor by Mil-TECH U.S.A. with a velcro retention strap. Neither is perfect.

I carry cocked and locked.

I have a Don Hume that I use for a Glock 27 and they make a pocket holster for a Sig p238. If they made an ambidextrous pocket holster that would fit a P938 and cover the safety and mag release I would buy one.
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Old April 18, 2017, 12:02 PM   #39
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Love my P938, there isn't another gun in that size that I can shoot as accurately as my SIG. It took some time to convince myself that carrying "cocked and locked" was safe, because it DOES look a little unsafe with the hammer back.

But after a lot of trigger time I'm convinced that it's more safe than a striker fired firearm. I'm sure you've all heard the stories of someone re-holstering their M&P or Glock and shooting themselves in the leg because the leather was old and got caught on the trigger. That's not going to happen with a gun with an external safety.

Additionally, for being a single action firearm the trigger pull is still pretty high.
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Old April 21, 2017, 07:42 AM   #40
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I am a big advocate of carrying with a round chambered. But at the same time, I think it's important to consider what actions are required to fire the weapon if it's to be considered for concealed carry.

If you are carrying outside the waist band, then a 938 or any 1911 is probably going to be fine to be carried cocked and locked. But I think carrying cocked and locked inside a pocket or inside the waist band is a recipe for disaster.

Regardless of how strong and positively the safety lever engages in the safe position, there is always the possibility of it being bumped off. Once it is off, the weapon isn't far from a negligent discharge if something gets inside the trigger guard.

I've always carried SA/DA pistols with a round chambered, hammer down. It takes a long, hard deliberate pull of the trigger for these pistols to fire. Could they still be accidentally discharged? Sure, anything is possible. But I think the probability is much lower than with a cocked and locked pistol.

Take a 1911 style pistol in cocked and locked, with a round chambered and set it next to a SA/DA pistol with a round chambered and the hammer down and ask yourself which is closer to being able to fire as it sets. It's going to be the one with the hammer back. I think it's worth thinking about that if you're going to use the pistol for concealed carry. I carry my CCW pistol appendix, IWB. Not a place for a pistol that has any probability for an accidental discharge.
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Old April 21, 2017, 08:06 AM   #41
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Carry them cocked and locked in a good holster and you shouldn't have an issue. I carried a Beretta jetfire and bobcat a a BUG in my pocket holster cocked and locked for years. Never did the safety ever disengage, even with addition items in my pocket.
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Old April 21, 2017, 08:59 AM   #42
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Agreed, with a decent holster you won't ever have to worry about the safety being disengaged, regardless of if its in your pocket, waistband, or hanging off your belt.
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Old April 21, 2017, 12:12 PM   #43
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Regardless of how strong and positively the safety lever engages in the safe position, there is always the possibility of it being bumped off. Once it is off, the weapon isn't far from a negligent discharge if something gets inside the trigger guard.
Which is why, as I opined earlier in this thread, I wish the little SIG had a grip safety, ala the 1911.
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Old April 21, 2017, 12:31 PM   #44
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Regardless of how strong and positively the safety lever engages in the safe position, there is always the possibility of it being bumped off. Once it is off, the weapon isn't far from a negligent discharge if something gets inside the trigger guard.
Then don't carry any polymer pistol with a blade safety in the trigger as you have exactly the same problem.

As has been proven with numerous Glock accidental discharges involving something getting into the trigger guard and then pulling on the trigger - any polymer gun with a blade trigger safety has a potential for discharge if something gets inside the trigger guard.

Then there's the HK P30 with the LEM trigger - essentially, no safety at all except the extremely long trigger pull.

What the P938 and P238 do have are mechanical firing pin blocks. The firing pin block has to move out of the way in order for the firing pin to travel forward - even if the hammer should somehow fall without the trigger being pulled.

If you examine the mechanism, the trigger has to be pulled slightly more than half way through its travel before the firing pin block moves out of the way.

Given that many pistols can be discharged if something gets inside the trigger guard, the P938 is no less safe than any of those pistols.
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Old April 21, 2017, 02:22 PM   #45
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Regardless of how strong and positively the safety lever engages in the safe position, there is always the possibility of it being bumped off. Once it is off, the weapon isn't far from a negligent discharge if something gets inside the trigger guard.
My pocket holster covers both the trigger and the thumb safety. I just don't see an accident happening. If I have one, I'll submit to "I told you so!" but I stand about as good a chance of being hit by a meteor, I think.

Quote:
But I think carrying cocked and locked inside a pocket or inside the waist band is a recipe for disaster.
Maybe you mean without a holster, in which case I agree.
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Old April 24, 2017, 06:35 PM   #46
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Don't have a P938, but thinking about it. I have no concerns about carrying it cocked with safety engaged. I'm used to carrying a 1911 so this is not new to me. I think getting the proper holster that offers the best combination of conceal-ability, comfort, and retention may really elevate a lot of these concerns.
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Old April 25, 2017, 05:11 AM   #47
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Just a few thoughts on actuating the safety on any 1911 style pistol and a cpl on holster design and selection.

In the defensive handgun courses I've attended it was stressed that the shooter establish a 'firing grip' while the gun was still in the holster and the manipulation of the safety lever is accomplished only as the gun comes up into firing position, in the last 10-15 degrees of elevation. The firing hand thumb sweeps the safety off at that point only after the decision to shoot has been reached.

So the size and ease or difficulty of using the safety lever becomes very important. In my use, I've always found 1911's safeties easy to find, have never found one too easy to slip off (both modern extended types as well as the WWll vintage ones), and have never hand one inadvertently disengage itself due to body movement while in the holster.

On the other hand, my Browning HP Mk lll with the modern extended safety is difficult to thumb actuate...it just doesn't stick out enough...while the P938 that I carried for several day on loan from my friend is about half way in between...any smaller and it would be difficult to find in a stressful encounter...any bigger and I'd be afraid it would hang up on clothing or holster and move to the "OFF" position..in other words, Sig got it about right. The detents seem about right too.

All that said, the holster used must allow a firing grip to be taken before the gun is moved, while simultaneously protecting the safety and magazine release from inadvertent movement. Many of the commercial holsters I've handled, do not accomplish these two requisites...choose wisely!

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Old April 25, 2017, 04:18 PM   #48
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I'm currently carrying a P938 Scorpion in a pocket holster, cocked and locked (condition 1). I've carried it about a year this way (and IWB). No problems.

I've always carried SAO pistols as thats what I shoot best. I've taken multiple pistol classes with them, and running the safety is automatic at this point.

If you are not confident to carry a round in the chamber, you need a better carry system and/or more training. The gun is safe. Its the person carrying it that may not be.
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Old May 20, 2017, 03:29 AM   #49
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Late to the thread, but a few points:

My P938 is my EDC, and I always carry it in Condition 1, loaded, cocked and locked. I have a wide variety of guns to choose from, but the P938 hits the right combination of easily concealable size, accuracy, and reliability for me. That said, a couple of observations and a heads-up:

Being able to rack the slide with the safety on is a big plus for me. I like to carry with the magazine full and a round in the chamber. To do so, you must put a loaded mag in the gun, rack the slide, remove the mag, load another round in it, then put it back in the gun. I feel better knowing I can do all that with the safety on.

It was easy for me to gain the muscle memory to operate the safety as the gun is coming out of the holster. As another poster mentioned upthread, the safety comes off automatically as my thumb moves into position on the grip, and goes back on before the gun is holstered. It's an automatic movement for me now, and I don't feel it slows me done one bit. Those who are opposed to the idea haven't trained for it. I have.

I carry the P938 in an Alien Gear IWB holster. Very comfortable, but shortly after getting the holster I discovered a problem. I always double check that the safety is on when I holster the gun and put it inside my waistband. On several occasions, I got back home and unholstered the gun only to find that the safety was disengaged. The first time or two, I thought maybe I had failed to engage the safety before gearing up in the morning. But after the third time, I decided it wasn't me...something else was going on. Upon closer examination, I found that the gun could move forward and back about 1/8" to 3/16" while in the holster. That movement, coupled with the semi-sticky neoprene backing of the Alien Gear holster, was just enough to disengage the safety. (I'm guessing it was happening when I'd sit in my car seat.) I used a heat gun to tweak the fit of the Kydex on the holster, tightening it in such a way as to prevent any fore and aft movement. Since doing that, I've had no "surprise" disengagement of the safety. So as a word of warning, if you are indeed carrying a P938 (or P238 or other similar SA guns), be sure it can't move in the holster in such a way as to allow the safety to become disengaged. Trust me, it's not a good feeling to pull the gun out of the holster at the end of the day only to find it's been in Condition 0 for part of the day. I suspect this issue may be unique to Alien Gear holsters with the neoprene backing. I've also carried a P238 in the past (before the wife stole if from me for her EDC), but I used a leather/Kydex hybrit IWB holster, and I never saw the problem happening with that gun.
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Old May 20, 2017, 11:05 AM   #50
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Safety resistance

At on time I had both the 238 and 938. Ended up selling the 938 because it would accidently release the magazine when firing (later learned this was a common problem with earlier models) and because the safety was so difficult to manipulate due to resistance. Have not had any of these issues with the 238 and wouldn't worry about accidently having the thumb safety disengage while carrying the gun in a good holster.
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