A query about Vang....

Dave McC · February 13, 2001, 08:01 AM

Someone from another forum asked me to ask this around, so...

He reports patterns from his Vang Comped bbl at around 12" at 20 yards. Is this close to standard? It's tighter than my unchoked HD 870, but not by a marvelous amount.

Also, the Vang process has left a rougher bore, supposedly on purpose. The slight retardation of the wad aids the pattern, in theory. But, my respondent reports that lead builds up PDQ when shooting especially slugs. Flakes of lead have to be removed afterwards.

Would all you Vangers(Vangees?) help him out here? Thanks...

Dave D · February 13, 2001, 04:39 PM

I have an 18" bbl Vang comped police 870 that will keep 12" at 25 yds. It is true that the Barrel finish is a bit rough and collects lead - particularly at the forcing cone. Ive found that it is best to clean it regularly to keep build up down.

btw: I prefer the title of Vangster, Lol!

tuc22 · February 13, 2001, 04:52 PM

Here's how my Vang 870 barrel patterns out with Federal LE 132 00 (Tactical Buck #00)

5yds.---1"
7yds.---1.5"
10yds.--2"
15yds.--5"
20yds.--10"

Build up of lead is same or maybe a tiny bit more than with other barrels. I would suspect quality of lead and loading or velocities are a bigger factor.

JNewell · February 13, 2001, 07:13 PM

I think mine runs under 12" at 25 yards with the Fed 00 reduced load. That is hardened shot with buffering. Soft shot, or unbuffered payload, might (1) cause more leading (duh!) and (2) deform more and therefore spread more. I've got the targets around somewhere, but I think my memory is right here.

I blew a huge number of slugs and 00 loads downrange one week this summer and did not notice any unusual leading, but we were using the same Fed 00 loads most of the time. (Those reduced recoil slugs are something else -- you can actually watch that ol' pumpkin go downrange.)

February 13, 2001, 08:10 PM

Well, Vang must have put an apprentice with a dull cutter on my barrel, because what Dave describes is exactly what I get. And that's with the highly overrated Federal 00 "tactical" (meaning they charge more money for less powder), and the leading is just as bad with any of the big 3's standard velocity 2 3/4" slug.

Dave McC · February 13, 2001, 08:23 PM

Thanks, Vangsters, I think this will help out. A note tho....

Most of the old smiths I know say that the best bore polishing is done by shooting lots of rounds through same. Keith mentions the same thing in his classic work. I wonder just how long it would take for that Vanged cone and choke to smooth up. Any of you guys got more than say, 1000 rounds
or more?

Also, buffering is perhaps the biggest advance in tightening patterns since Fred Kimble invented the choke. Hard shot, plating etc, all don't show the improvement that the buffering does.

DML · February 14, 2001, 02:47 AM

There are a lot of theories about how a choke works and most of them are probably wrong. The Vang Comp System uses techniques that are well known and have been used by trap shooters for a long time. You should understand that the main purpose of the Vang mods is to produce smaller patterns with buck shot. It does that very well. It also allows the use of any other ammo that can be fired in a 12 ga. shotgun, something that you probably shouldn't do with certain screw-in chokes.

It should also be understood that the Vang Comp System was designed with law enforcement in mind. The idea is to increase the effective range of buck shot and reduce the chances of collateral damage. In other words, put all the pellets in the target. A pellet that misses the target is not a good thing.

Regarding the finish of the bore. I saw some of the original Vang Comp barrels when they were bored by hand. Let me tell you, they looked like an old stove pipe, but they sure shot good. For a while, they put a 120 grit finish on the bore, but it was found that a rougher finish worked better. It has also been found that a fouled bore tends to shoot tighter patterns with buck shot then a clean bore.

I have talked to Hans about his barrels and there is one thing that I find interesting. Of the hundreds of barrels and shotguns he has sold, not one has been returned for a refund. A few barrels have been returned because the owner didn't feel that the patterns were tight enough, but no one has ever asked for his money back. How many businesses can say that?

Bennett Richards · February 14, 2001, 04:05 AM

In a sport that is rife with any number of money wasting accessories, most of which just blow a hole in your wallet, I have found the VANG Comp system to be one of the FEW things really worth the money. My 18" 870 Marine Cyl barrel now shoots 1 inch groups at 7 yards, has considerably less recoil and muzzle flash and has never dissapointed me.

I consider it THE best money you can spend on a tactical shotgun... Hell, I might even shoot some trap with that stubby little 18" barrel!

Ben

Dave McC · February 14, 2001, 08:41 AM

Thanks a lot guys. I'm still undecided about how needed a Vang job is, but the preponderance of user input is quite positive.In fact, this is probably as non contentious a subject as we have.

Ben, too bad we're on different coasts. A mano a mano showdown at 16 yard trap between your Vanged PM and Frankenstein would be interesting and fun to boot. We could do an article for G&A, throwing scruples to the wind(G)...

I can see the leadin....

12 ga SHOOTOUT!!! Vang Custom vs the Loudenboomer SP Mag. WHICH IS BETTER?

Then after 3000 words(duly compensated at the going rate) and some pics, we state they're both great shotguns and a boon to civilization as we know it.

barbrady · February 18, 2001, 09:33 PM

My Vang 870 shoots about 10" patterns at 25 yards with Fed Tac OOB and 6-7" patterns at the same distance with Remington's 8 pellet reduced recoil OOB. Some of the Remingtom RR OOB patterns have been as small as 3" at 25 yards (with witnesses) but they average 6-7".

I have also noticed the problem with the leading but it cleans out pretty well with copper scrub pad material wrapped on a bore brush (as recommended by Hans).

Romulus · February 18, 2001, 09:50 PM

Does Vang only work on 870's? Does he comp, say, Ithaca 87 or 37 M&P's?

JNewell · February 19, 2001, 10:06 PM

Dave, if you want, I will mail you my 18.5" 870 Vang barrel for T&E. Seeing is believing. :-) (This is a serious offer.) Email me off-"list" if you are interested.

Dave McC · February 20, 2001, 06:21 AM

Thanks, check your E mail...

Mr. Pub · February 21, 2001, 03:19 PM

About 1/2" per yard is about right with Vang.

I think the best way to buy a Vang Comp shotgun is to watch his web site and buy a shotgun or barrel that has been already done. Usually, its seems that he has some surplus that he puts on sale. Perhaps extras from a big job.

Cheaper than buying the gun separtely and sending it to him.

Its suppose to reduce recoil somewhat as the shot and charge don't get bunched up. They move through the barrel easier. Its hard to tell though.

AEM · February 21, 2001, 04:26 PM

Some folks claim that the Vang backboring reduces velocity significantly, but others say that the Secret Service and other agencies or testing labs have found only minimal loss of velocity or penetration. I'd like to know more about this issue. Has anyone tested velocity with and without Vang? You already have some velocity loss with tactical buck ( with the trade off of tighter patterns), so if the Vang treatment reduced velocity further it might affect stopping power.

edited to correct a stupid spelling error.

[Edited by AEM on 03-02-2001 at 10:01 AM]

Coronach · February 22, 2001, 12:21 AM

I'm no ballistics expert, I'm just a dude with a shotgun. IMHO you would have to reduce velocity *A*LOT* to reach a point where it would affect stopping power.

Its kinda like being hit by a train doing 50 MPH as opposed to 60 MPH. In the final analysis, you still got hit by a train.

Mike

Romulus · February 22, 2001, 01:46 AM

Coronach, I agree, I've read that the wad alone can shove you back more than a couple of inches...and convinced as I am now that bird shot WILL work in home defense (I can't imagine how they would repair a birdshot wound, the buffer alone...yuck) I can't imagine "reduced" buckshot, whether reduced by Mr. Vang or by Mrs. Estate as being short of a manstopper round.

Coronach · February 22, 2001, 12:01 PM

Simple physics would suggest that anything that can forcibly push a target back a few inches would do the same to the shooter (well..I guess my shoulder recoils a few inches. Depends on what you meant, I suppose).

Remember, "Dumb" and "Dumber" recently taught us that cigarette butts can kill at HD ranges.

So, I imagine a shotgun wad will do much the same. :P

Mike

oberkommando · March 1, 2001, 04:37 PM

Romulus if you get something other than a mossy or rem be prepard to wait for a while as vang sends out his benelli's to GG&G for the benelli barrel to be changed they keep the reciever part and add a new IIRC Shaw barrel to it. I just got mine back after 19 months this month. My first one was an 870 and was back really quick.

Went to phoenix show this last weekend and a guy from maricopa tactical said gg&g will wait till they have a whole pile of benellis then do them all at once hence the sometimes long wait. Hans told me he is going to try to work on making things speed up in the future.

February 18, 2001, 09:50 PM	#11
Romulus Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2001 Location: Kettle Moraine country Posts: 897	a brief aside Does Vang only work on 870's? Does he comp, say, Ithaca 87 or 37 M&P's?

February 22, 2001, 12:21 AM	#16
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	I'm no ballistics expert, I'm just a dude with a shotgun. IMHO you would have to reduce velocity ALOT* to reach a point where it would affect stopping power. Its kinda like being hit by a train doing 50 MPH as opposed to 60 MPH. In the final analysis, you still got hit by a train. Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

February 22, 2001, 12:01 PM	#18
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	Well... Simple physics would suggest that anything that can forcibly push a target back a few inches would do the same to the shooter (well..I guess my shoulder recoils a few inches. Depends on what you meant, I suppose). Remember, "Dumb" and "Dumber" recently taught us that cigarette butts can kill at HD ranges. So, I imagine a shotgun wad will do much the same. :P Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

March 1, 2001, 04:37 PM	#19
oberkommando Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 1999 Posts: 1,158	Other work besides 870's Romulus if you get something other than a mossy or rem be prepard to wait for a while as vang sends out his benelli's to GG&G for the benelli barrel to be changed they keep the reciever part and add a new IIRC Shaw barrel to it. I just got mine back after 19 months this month. My first one was an 870 and was back really quick. Went to phoenix show this last weekend and a guy from maricopa tactical said gg&g will wait till they have a whole pile of benellis then do them all at once hence the sometimes long wait. Hans told me he is going to try to work on making things speed up in the future.

February 13, 2001, 08:01 AM	#1
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Someone from another forum asked me to ask this around, so... He reports patterns from his Vang Comped bbl at around 12" at 20 yards. Is this close to standard? It's tighter than my unchoked HD 870, but not by a marvelous amount. Also, the Vang process has left a rougher bore, supposedly on purpose. The slight retardation of the wad aids the pattern, in theory. But, my respondent reports that lead builds up PDQ when shooting especially slugs. Flakes of lead have to be removed afterwards. Would all you Vangers(Vangees?) help him out here? Thanks...

February 13, 2001, 04:39 PM	#2
Dave D Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2000 Location: Northern California Posts: 126	I have an 18" bbl Vang comped police 870 that will keep 12" at 25 yds. It is true that the Barrel finish is a bit rough and collects lead - particularly at the forcing cone. Ive found that it is best to clean it regularly to keep build up down. btw: I prefer the title of Vangster, Lol!

February 13, 2001, 04:52 PM	#3
tuc22 Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 1999 Posts: 367	Here's how my Vang 870 barrel patterns out with Federal LE 132 00 (Tactical Buck #00) 5yds.---1" 7yds.---1.5" 10yds.--2" 15yds.--5" 20yds.--10" Build up of lead is same or maybe a tiny bit more than with other barrels. I would suspect quality of lead and loading or velocities are a bigger factor.

February 13, 2001, 07:13 PM	#4
JNewell Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2000 Posts: 1,092	I think mine runs under 12" at 25 yards with the Fed 00 reduced load. That is hardened shot with buffering. Soft shot, or unbuffered payload, might (1) cause more leading (duh!) and (2) deform more and therefore spread more. I've got the targets around somewhere, but I think my memory is right here. I blew a huge number of slugs and 00 loads downrange one week this summer and did not notice any unusual leading, but we were using the same Fed 00 loads most of the time. (Those reduced recoil slugs are something else -- you can actually watch that ol' pumpkin go downrange.)

February 13, 2001, 08:10 PM	#5
Jeff, CA Guest Posts: n/a	Well, Vang must have put an apprentice with a dull cutter on my barrel, because what Dave describes is exactly what I get. And that's with the highly overrated Federal 00 "tactical" (meaning they charge more money for less powder), and the leading is just as bad with any of the big 3's standard velocity 2 3/4" slug.

February 13, 2001, 08:23 PM	#6
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Thanks, Vangsters, I think this will help out. A note tho.... Most of the old smiths I know say that the best bore polishing is done by shooting lots of rounds through same. Keith mentions the same thing in his classic work. I wonder just how long it would take for that Vanged cone and choke to smooth up. Any of you guys got more than say, 1000 rounds or more? Also, buffering is perhaps the biggest advance in tightening patterns since Fred Kimble invented the choke. Hard shot, plating etc, all don't show the improvement that the buffering does.

February 14, 2001, 02:47 AM	#7
DML Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2000 Location: Aridzona Posts: 257	There are a lot of theories about how a choke works and most of them are probably wrong. The Vang Comp System uses techniques that are well known and have been used by trap shooters for a long time. You should understand that the main purpose of the Vang mods is to produce smaller patterns with buck shot. It does that very well. It also allows the use of any other ammo that can be fired in a 12 ga. shotgun, something that you probably shouldn't do with certain screw-in chokes. It should also be understood that the Vang Comp System was designed with law enforcement in mind. The idea is to increase the effective range of buck shot and reduce the chances of collateral damage. In other words, put all the pellets in the target. A pellet that misses the target is not a good thing. Regarding the finish of the bore. I saw some of the original Vang Comp barrels when they were bored by hand. Let me tell you, they looked like an old stove pipe, but they sure shot good. For a while, they put a 120 grit finish on the bore, but it was found that a rougher finish worked better. It has also been found that a fouled bore tends to shoot tighter patterns with buck shot then a clean bore. I have talked to Hans about his barrels and there is one thing that I find interesting. Of the hundreds of barrels and shotguns he has sold, not one has been returned for a refund. A few barrels have been returned because the owner didn't feel that the patterns were tight enough, but no one has ever asked for his money back. How many businesses can say that?

February 14, 2001, 04:05 AM	#8
Bennett Richards Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 1998 Location: Carlsbad, CA USA Posts: 356	In a sport that is rife with any number of money wasting accessories, most of which just blow a hole in your wallet, I have found the VANG Comp system to be one of the FEW things really worth the money. My 18" 870 Marine Cyl barrel now shoots 1 inch groups at 7 yards, has considerably less recoil and muzzle flash and has never dissapointed me. I consider it THE best money you can spend on a tactical shotgun... Hell, I might even shoot some trap with that stubby little 18" barrel! Ben

February 14, 2001, 08:41 AM	#9
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Thanks a lot guys. I'm still undecided about how needed a Vang job is, but the preponderance of user input is quite positive.In fact, this is probably as non contentious a subject as we have. Ben, too bad we're on different coasts. A mano a mano showdown at 16 yard trap between your Vanged PM and Frankenstein would be interesting and fun to boot. We could do an article for G&A, throwing scruples to the wind(G)... I can see the leadin.... 12 ga SHOOTOUT!!! Vang Custom vs the Loudenboomer SP Mag. WHICH IS BETTER? Then after 3000 words(duly compensated at the going rate) and some pics, we state they're both great shotguns and a boon to civilization as we know it.

February 18, 2001, 09:33 PM	#10
barbrady Junior Member Join Date: December 2, 2000 Posts: 2	My Vang 870 shoots about 10" patterns at 25 yards with Fed Tac OOB and 6-7" patterns at the same distance with Remington's 8 pellet reduced recoil OOB. Some of the Remingtom RR OOB patterns have been as small as 3" at 25 yards (with witnesses) but they average 6-7". I have also noticed the problem with the leading but it cleans out pretty well with copper scrub pad material wrapped on a bore brush (as recommended by Hans).

February 19, 2001, 10:06 PM	#12
JNewell Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2000 Posts: 1,092	Dave, if you want, I will mail you my 18.5" 870 Vang barrel for T&E. Seeing is believing. :-) (This is a serious offer.) Email me off-"list" if you are interested.

February 20, 2001, 06:21 AM	#13
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Thanks, check your E mail...

February 21, 2001, 03:19 PM	#14
Mr. Pub Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2000 Posts: 392	About 1/2" per yard is about right with Vang. I think the best way to buy a Vang Comp shotgun is to watch his web site and buy a shotgun or barrel that has been already done. Usually, its seems that he has some surplus that he puts on sale. Perhaps extras from a big job. Cheaper than buying the gun separtely and sending it to him. Its suppose to reduce recoil somewhat as the shot and charge don't get bunched up. They move through the barrel easier. Its hard to tell though.

February 21, 2001, 04:26 PM	#15
AEM Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 1999 Posts: 171	Some folks claim that the Vang backboring reduces velocity significantly, but others say that the Secret Service and other agencies or testing labs have found only minimal loss of velocity or penetration. I'd like to know more about this issue. Has anyone tested velocity with and without Vang? You already have some velocity loss with tactical buck ( with the trade off of tighter patterns), so if the Vang treatment reduced velocity further it might affect stopping power. edited to correct a stupid spelling error. [Edited by AEM on 03-02-2001 at 10:01 AM]

February 22, 2001, 01:46 AM	#17
Romulus Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2001 Location: Kettle Moraine country Posts: 897	Coronach, I agree, I've read that the wad alone can shove you back more than a couple of inches...and convinced as I am now that bird shot WILL work in home defense (I can't imagine how they would repair a birdshot wound, the buffer alone...yuck) I can't imagine "reduced" buckshot, whether reduced by Mr. Vang or by Mrs. Estate as being short of a manstopper round.