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Old December 3, 2021, 09:30 PM   #76
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It was not a typo, I specified a shorter .45 Cowboy case is because standard length is just a bit longer than .45 ACP,..
Not having it my old books I had to resort to finding the case drawing online.

The drawing I found shows the .45 Cowboy having a case length of .898"

This is exactly the length of the .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim.

and this matches what I have heard about the case, that it is the same length as the .45ACP.

Not longer.
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Old December 4, 2021, 02:04 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
Not having it my old books I had to resort to finding the case drawing online.

The drawing I found shows the .45 Cowboy having a case length of .898"

This is exactly the length of the .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim.

and this matches what I have heard about the case, that it is the same length as the .45ACP.

Not longer.
Because of the taper to the .45 ACP case the .45 Cowboy may not fit in .45 ACP chambered revolvers, thus they'd require trimming.

One way to alleviate that for reloaders is to use .45 ACP sizing dies. I know from experience using .45 Colt sizer dies on .45 ACP works just fine in the Ruger Redhawk.

As to why I want this, IDK, I just like being given a choice of shooting .45 ACP with or without clips or using a rimmed case that is basically super short .45 Colt that I could use in .45 Colt chambers.
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Old December 4, 2021, 03:13 AM   #78
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The .45 acp and the 9mm Luger are the same in one aspect, they are intended to headspace on the case mouth. There is a ledge at the front of the chamber to do this. When, in a semi auto the case is too short to be stopped by this ledge, it is usually still held in place by the pistol's extractor, and so still fires normally.

This is the method commonly used in revolvers, as well. It is the system exclusively used in Single action revolvers in those calibers. Clips are not used, in an SA revolver they are not needed and not practical.

In a DA revolver, there are two options, and both work. Which one is actually doing the work of headspacing the rounds depends on tolerances.

If the rounds are headspacing on the chamber ledge, then the clip serves only to allow simultaneous ejection. The gun can be used without the clips,
rounds will headspace and fire properly they just won't eject .

If the rounds are too short to reach the chamber ledge, or there is no chamber ledge, then the clip does double duty, acting as both the headspace and allowing ejection. Guns that do that cannot be used without the clips.

This was demonstrated by the very first batch of 1917 .45acp revolvers. The Colt guns did not have the chamber ledge, and could not be used without the half moon clips. The S&W guns did have the headspace ledge in the chambers and could be used without the clips.

Because of numerous complaints, after the first batch, Colt put the headspace ledge in its guns, too.

Quote:
Because of the taper to the .45 ACP case the .45 Cowboy may not fit in .45 ACP chambered revolvers, thus they'd require trimming.
Its not the taper its that the actual case and chamber dimensions are different.

Quote:
One way to alleviate that for reloaders is to use .45 ACP sizing dies. I know from experience using .45 Colt sizer dies on .45 ACP works just fine in the Ruger Redhawk.
Your Redhawk is chambered for what?? .45 Colt, isn't it?

Allowing for the variances in tolerance and understanding that the usual case drawings show the maximum dimensions, consider this...

The .45 ACP has a rim that is .480" The case head is .476" and tapers to .473" at the case mouth.

the .45 Colt (and the .45 Schofield, and the .45 Cowboy cases) have the same body dimensions other than length. .480" at the case head, .480" at the case mouth.

The .45 Colt chamber will easily accept an ACP case because the ACP case is undersize for the chamber. But you must use clips or the ACP case will go too deep into the chamber to fire. There is no ledge in the .45 Colt chamber at the right length to headspace an ACP case.

The .45 Cowboy chamber will not have the ledge, either. If it had a ledge to headspace ACP rounds, the larger diameter (.480" vs .473") case would not fit. In a gun with the clearance for the clips, you could fire ACP in a .45 Cowboy chamber. With out clips, it will not work.

The reverse, firing .45 Cowboy in an ACP chamber will not work, IF things are in spec.

there have been 9mm DA revolvers with special extractors that do not need to use clips. As far as I know, no one has done that with .45 ACP revolvers.
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Old December 4, 2021, 06:34 AM   #79
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there have been 9mm DA revolvers with special extractors that do not need to use clips. As far as I know, no one has done that with .45 ACP revolvers.
"Introducing the Charter Arms .45 ACP caliber Pitbull. The unique design provides a dual coil spring assembly located in the extractor which allows for the insertion and retention of the .45 ACP caliber cartridge in each chamber of the revolvers’ cylinder. (No moon clips required) This patented system allows the shooter ease of ejecting spent cartridges for immediate reloading."

Quote:
the very first batch of 1917 .45acp revolvers. The Colt guns did not have the chamber ledge, and could not be used without the half moon clips.
I have read about this for years but have never seen one of those early Colts. Did they replace cylinders after the design change? Are they all lurking in collections, never fired?

Any road, you can reprise that situation today. There are several shops that will cut your .45 Colt to accept clipped .45 ACP and still shoot .45 LC. Ruger even makes one at the factory.

"Chambered to shoot both .45 Auto and .45 Colt cartridges and ships with three (3) full moon clips that act as both a speed loader for the .45 auto rounds and aid in the ejection of the spent cartridges."

(Ruger clip is not the same as for Colt and Smith.)

The OP could also shoot .45 CS in such a gun. What he could not do is shoot unclipped .45 ACP or .45 AR.

Another thing not feasible in these guns is to shoot with half moon clips due to the way the outer border of the cylinder face is left to headspace the rimmed cartridge.
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Old December 4, 2021, 12:17 PM   #80
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I have read about this for years but have never seen one of those early Colts. Did they replace cylinders after the design change? Are they all lurking in collections, never fired?
it is my understanding that the very first batch of 1917 Colts, the ones with the bored straight through chambers were refitted with new cylinders after WWI.

Ok, so Charter arms makes (made?) a .45ACP revolver with a special extractor that doesn't need clips.

That explains why I had never heard of one....
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Old December 4, 2021, 12:52 PM   #81
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Is the new Charter ejection system similar to the one used in the 547 S&W? I'd like to see on for curiosity sake.
The 1917 Colt in 45acp was built with the head space ledge sometime after the first 40,000 or 50,000 were built. From what I've read all the 1917s were supposed to be modified as they went through re-inspection and repair. I got this from an old time gunsmith 40 years ago.
Some Colts were rebuilt, some were surplused, most were probably done during WW2, before reissue.
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Old December 4, 2021, 03:42 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post

Ok, so Charter arms makes (made?) a .45ACP revolver with a special extractor that doesn't need clips.

That explains why I had never heard of one....
9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP.

https://charterfirearms.com/collections/pitbull
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Old December 4, 2021, 08:46 PM   #83
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9mm revolver

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Originally Posted by Mike Irwin View Post
OK, cool. You have a firm opinion.

I have a different opinion.

I'm not looking for the most power in a small defensive handgun.

I'm looking for a combination of bullet penetration and expansion, and these days there are many .38 Special rounds that do that admirably, even out of a snub nose revolver.

I've carried a .38 snub for over 30 years. I've also carried 9mms, .357s, and when I need a really small and concealable pistol, a .22.

I'm confident in my abilities with all of them, and I choose the best ammunition that is available at the time.

I do have to ask, how come it is stressed that he just has an opinion, but 44 AMP has gone against everyone else that either has a similar opinion or brings up legitimate benefits, and nothing is said? Not trying to start anything, but it is like one’s view is being considered higher/more correct than another’s. I personally don’t really care, even though I’m in the same viewpoint as the OP, but it is an odd stance to have (calling out his opinion). We all have different views, and it’s a great ability to be able to discuss them.

I’ve said it at least once in here, I like discussions with this spirit/potential… as you get different viewpoints where others can base their future decisions. But it really has got a bit spotty with this thread. Be it cherry picking loads/barrel lengths to argue one is superior, yet I’ve posted real world comparison out of the same gun… showing you can get more bullet mass, going the same velocity, with standard pressure 9mm over .38 +P. Or that because something was designed a certain way for years prior, it must be the only way.

Some have posted in a way that there is just their choice as the right way… and again, that isn’t the case. I’ve converted my 642-1 to 9mm in mid-2015… and been carrying it ever since. I also purchased the gun new in 2009, and carried it on/off with .38 +P in that time (had it redone in NP3 Plus… maybe 2011 or 2012). I’m comfortable with it, and rarely without a gun off duty because of its extremely light weight. I put my money (cost of the gun/conversion/ammo), time (been shooting it in 9mm for almost all of that 6.5 years, 12 years with the gun total), and effort (amount of training/practice, which is important for a carry gun, and more so for a short barreled revolver) into it… and even if some posters in this thread make it out that 9mm revolvers are terrible… in all honesty, my view isn’t being changed.

Same consideration… I’m not looking to change your view to “rah-rah, 9mm revolver!” We are all adults, and have the ability to make decisions on our own. I just rather take the emotion that some posters put out there, and give those that may consider the caliber of their snub revolver some objective points to look at.

Sorry for the soapbox, but I really put a lot of effort in my carry system (after my switch of calibers, I even did a lot of testing in different carry methods for 9mm moon clips that I posted on a couple forums), and would like to share that to people who like to see different avenues than what is the norm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
This was demonstrated by the very first batch of 1917 .45acp revolvers. The Colt guns did not have the chamber ledge, and could not be used without the half moon clips. The S&W guns did have the headspace ledge in the chambers and could be used without the clips.

Because of numerous complaints, after the first batch, Colt put the headspace ledge in its guns, too.

Yes and no…

Early Colts did have bored thru cylinders… but so did S&W 1917s. Good example, check out the YouTube channel C&Rsenal. They did an episode for both 1917s, as well as the models for both S&W and Colt that lead up to it. They have an example of an early S&W 1917, where the round falls thru just like an early Colt.

The US didn’t like that, for those exact reasons, and made that feature standard on both models. S&W probably did it first, and Colt followed. After that, headspaced cylinders became a standard for .45 ACP pistols (and then other calibers as it progressed forward). There were a handful of changes like that with the 1917 revolvers, including removing the ridges on the side of the S&W hammers… which were designed to hold oil, but also held dirt.

I want to say C&Rsenal did like 4 or 5 episodes for these guns, all in the 40 minute to 1 hour plus length. If you are interested in those, I really recommend watching.
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Old December 4, 2021, 10:18 PM   #84
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According to Timothy Mullins in his books on S&W N frames says all .45acp were chambered with square cut chambers.
Also the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson says the same.
Same again for Pistols and Revolvers by Smith.
I have only seen one Smith 1917 that would allow a 45acp to fall through, that gun had been reamed to 45Colt. And not remarked for caliber.
That is the only one I've found in 42 years. Maybe there were some not built that way.
A wise old gunsmith told me in the early 80s " You want a 1917, get a S&W, you can shoot it without half moon clips."
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Old December 5, 2021, 09:10 AM   #85
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There are some S&W .45s you can't shoot without clips. Newer rather than older.
They turned out some of the 625 series with chambers too long for an ACP to headspace on the case mouth as in an automatic.
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Old December 5, 2021, 11:39 AM   #86
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"According to Timothy Mullins in his books on S&W N frames says all .45acp were chambered with square cut chambers.
Also the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson says the same.
Same again for Pistols and Revolvers by Smith."

That's my understanding, as well.

S&W had been employing shouldered chambers for years, even on the .45s that they were manufacturing for the British.
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Old February 6, 2023, 04:40 PM   #87
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Most of my handguns are 9mm. I like J-frames enough that I have converted three Airweights to 9mm after lightening them up with titanium cylinders.

I agree that 9mm doesn't hold a candle to .357 with regards to power, but it does provide all the recoil I can stand in a 12 ounce gun.

And I do like the ejection and reload speed provided by the moonclips.
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Old February 6, 2023, 09:58 PM   #88
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We have a Ruger convertible 9mm/357 that shoots well and being a single action, no moon clips are needed. We also have a 625 Smith 45 ACP and Ruger Super Redhawk in 10mm that use the clips and they work great. I used the Smith for years when I was shooting PPC and never a hiccup. I can't say they are better or worse than semiautomatics, just different. FYI: we have a bunch of semiautomatics as well.
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Old February 11, 2023, 01:29 AM   #89
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This Taurus 692 is a 7 shot, 3", .357/.38 that comes with an interchangeable 9mm cylinder. The gun is seemingly built stronger and tighter than any med framed revolver models I've owned/shot from them over several decades.



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