Defensive round, when JHP is illegal

[SA1911]

For all self-defense work, I prefer RPG's. But they're hard to conceal for urban outings, and they take too long to bring to battery. They're accuracy is substandard.

When I lose my sense of humor, the world will become too harsh for me.

Here's the honest truth: I've carried 230 grain ball ammo in a 1911-A1 and have never felt the least bit vulnerable.

The first rule of ammo is penetration.

[superbo]

Hi, thanks for raising an interesting issue. I would advise some caution here. The problem may not go away just by selecting an ammo which you think is legal, but how a public prosecutor will interpret that choice. This, no matter how well you mean, will be the critical factor the day you will shoot in defense, or a policeman will inspect your weapon.

From a quick check of the Estonian weapons act, article 20 (4) 5), the use of pistol or revolver cartridges with a hollow-pointed bullet is prohibited for civilian purposes. It may be that the Estonian original text is more specific - I tried to run the corresponding text in an automatic translator and it did not really work. I see in other parts of the law that for example chemical or amour-piercing are defined in more technical detail.

What I would be careful here is to assume that the definition of 'hollow point' in the Estonian weapons act is the same as commonly understood by people with a good familiarity with weapons and ammunition.

For example, the Fiocchi Black Mamba you mention, although fully jacketed, have a concave tip. This will show even to the untrained eye of a traffic policeman...

As an educated guess based on some familiarity with European legal systems, my guess it that the law just echoes a very traditional -and surely outdated- approach, based on the prohibition of 'dum-dum' military ammo in the Geneva convention. If so, then any kind of expanding bullet (for example any bullet in which lead shows in the front - you were considering SP) is likely to be considered prohibited.

I am also assuming that there will not be a lot of case law on the issue, as the number of firearms court cases in Europe is negligible compared to the US. So, going to court could become a very unpredictable business...

First thing to do is probably just ask the public authority in charge of issuing permits for a clarification in writing. The downside of it is, obviously, that whatever they reply, you'll need to stick to. Even if they advise to use military grade ammo...

In summary, my advice is to keep a legal eye on your choice of ammo, not just the technical one. Or just stick to FMJ if still in doubt - I am sure many on this forum will know better, but I would consider subsonic loads: they have smaller V0 and will lose energy at a quicker rate over distance traveled past defensive range; or consider that a .380 FMJ will have less penetration than 9para.

[raimius]

Bullets likely to stop an attacker will penetrate several layers of drywall. So, train a lot so you miss less! If over penetration or missed shots is of more concerned than ability to stop an attacker quickly and reliably, maybe a Glaser safety slug would be appropriate.

[tony pasley]

I would suggest either a wad-cutter or semi-wad cutter if they feed you will have a solid flat piece of lead hitting your target.

[Laz]

My concern is purely overpenetration. I spend my time mostly in urban areas with lots of people around, and I live in an apartment building. Would I ever be in the unlikely and tragic position of having to use my weapon, I want it to have a round in it that will exhaust most of it's enegry when it hits an object, and not pass through two walls and a neighbor after that.

I have long believed that in the days before development of modern hollow point ammo, the situation you describe is why the .380 or 9mm Kurz was so popular for so long in Europe. The common 9mm military caliber would overpenetrate but in a military engagement that was not really a disadvantage. For civilian use in an urban setting the .380 fmj would get adequate penetration but if it did overpenetrate much of its energy was spent, certainly in comparison to the more powerful 9mm parabellum. Of course, most of those .380s probably had barrels in the 3.2 to 3.6 inch range rather than today’s common 2.75 inch pocket pistols. Maybe something like a Beretta 84 with .380 fmj is what you might look at. Or, a Makarov if any are around and can be legally purchased.

[otasan]

Go Glaser

[OldScout]

People were killing people with hand guns long before the hollow point was invented. It's accuracy and where you hit that's important.

[Bart Noir]

Torre, welcome to The Firing Line. You are off to a good start in getting us talking.

Naturally any advice from us here in the US of A has to be considered in terms of what you can actually buy, there in Estonia. The latest copper-polymer bullets, which now are available here from several makers (Ruger!) may not be available to you just because nobody sells them in your shops.

OldScout, you confuse "self-defense killing" with "self-defense stopping". The second is a legally acceptable concept, the first might be shortened to "murder". The person being attacked shoots to stop the attack, not to purposely kill. And what good does a fatal shot do if the attacker has strength to keep on attacking for a few more moments? The fast stopping of the attack is the most important goal with self-defense firearms.

So all rounds should be evaluated in terms of a quick stop to the attack.

Bart Noir

[Sgt127]

Based on all of your criteria, I’d carry a 3-4” S&W 64 .38 Special with standard velocity semi wad cutters and call it a day.

I’d rather have that first shot capability over an empty chamber auto.

[2damnold4this]

I think if you are carrying the firearm for defense, it needs to ready for use and that means a revolver if you can't legally carry a semi with a round in the chamber. A .38 Special with semi or full wadcutters would be my choice if you can't have hollow points.

Your G17 would make a fine home defense firearm but it's kinda big to carry concealed and it's a disadvantage if you can't carry the G17 with a round in the chamber. If you are going to use the G17 for home defense, I'd try a variety of ammunition that is legal where you live to find the most reliable that hits close to the point of aim at distances you have in your house. If you can get some expanding ammunition, that would be a bonus but reliability and being able to hit what you shoot at are more important.

[Laz]

I’m not going to argue that carrying a Glock with an empty chamber is the best choice, however should you consider that, training in using the so-called “Israeli Method” or “Israeli Carry” which the IDF used at one time to deal with relatively untrained troops and a variety of different handguns with different manual of arms can be surprisingly fast and effective with practice.

[Bart Noir]

Laz, that method is not so fast if you only have one functioning hand. And since you cannot define all the bad things going on at the moment when you really truly need to draw and fire, you have to prepare for the worst. You know, when you find yourself meeting not only Murphy but Murphy's three ugly kids.

So can you draw and fire while the support hand is inoperative due to a broken bone, or the attacker's first shot, or is held tightly by one of the assailants, or is held tightly by a panicked 10-year old, or is pushing that 10-year old to cover?

If you train and equip for the answer of "no" then you end up trained and equipped for only the best of the worst possible events.

Bart Noir

[Bart Noir]

Torre, I have been impressed with the Windicator revolvers although I have not owned or fired one. They just seemed solid and well made but, as the saying goes about so much being sold anywhere: “It all looks great in the showroom.”.

They are made in Germany, I think. That might make them cost less to you than something imported from North or South America.

I think they are rated for .357 Magnum which would allow the use of powerful .38 +P rounds.

Bart Noir

[donglock26]

I'd just get 9mm NATO fmj. Shot placement and penetration are the king and queen of
handgun "stopping power".

[Laz]

Bart Noir - You are correct, of course, but I’m not advocating “Israeli Carry”, merely pointing it out as an option. I would hope and am sure the OP will research whatever his solution is and make an informed decision.

[Deaf Smith]

If good JHPs are 'illegal' then I tend to lean toward .45/.44 and SWCs.

Deaf

[RJay]

There is nothing wrong with full metal jacket ammo for defense or offense. I would not doubt that FNJ has put more people on Charon's boat than all the hollow points ever made.

[gnystrom]

Look into NOVX. They are on the brink of introducing a lot of new ammo with the bullet made by Polycase. I have shot some sample rounds and there is a slight decrease in felt recoil, a bit louder that factory rounds, but a whole lot faster moving. I ran a few rounds through a full size XDm and a CZ carbine with no feeding problems and accuracy was outstanding. I am in the process of getting enough ammo to test at our range in "ammo fussy" short barrel semi's.

Midway is starting to get them in stock and they also have a training round that duplicates the speed and weight of the SD rounds but at a whole lot lower cost giving you the opportunity to train with what you are going to shoot. At this time they are available only in 9mm.
I believe you will see a lot of very innovative products from these guys on display at the Shot Show 2018.
http://www.novxammo.com/

[shafter]

Under your circumstances I would carry a revolver with semi wadcutters. Probably a powerful 38 special round.

[briandg]

O heir, you're a bit off there. A hollow point expands because the gunk in the cavity pushes outward and displaces the lead. A soft point can only expand by being crushed. It takes a lot of energy to crush lead and typical pistol velocities can't do it. If a soft point could perform as well, hollow points wouldn't be used.

A soft point bullet will generally perform no better than a plain pointed round nose lead bullet unless the lead is extremely soft.

The best non hollow point lead bullet has been the flat point semi wadcutters. It will be better than a round nose lead and better than a soft point if that sp fails to perform.

I have three things to consider.

Does the written law ban only hollow points, or all expanding ammo?

What are the consequences of carrying banned hollow points, and would those consequences be too much to risk?

If you do carry banned rounds and you are involved in a shooting, what criminal or civil consequences can you expect?

Many people presume that carrying non expanding bullets will cause their immediate demise, and that's nonsense. A bullet that expands has a better chance of disabling the target, but ordinary bullets work well too.

Before you get involved with tipped or flattening or other kinds of trick bullets, learn exactly what the code is and the possible consequences of carrying anything but standard fmj.

[Zorro]

.45 ACP.

[briandg]

To address the concern of penetration of barriers or people, there are essentially two forces involved. Compare a .45 cartridge that fires a slow and heavy non expanding bullet, this type of round will bulldoze its way through heavy barriers.

Take a 9nn 115 up as high as you can, and adding velocity won't increase the penetration as much as expected. There comes a point in all collisions where the penetration is actually reduced and the destruction of both bullet and target increase. Run a typical pistol bullet up to 5,000 fps and it will self destruct upon impact with a hard surface.

Summary, if you want to reduce danger from blow through, a light and fast bullet that is lightly built is better than a heavy, strongly built one at any similar velocities.

There are a lot of other factors involved.

[9mmSkeeter]

I second or third Federal's Guard Dog. Excellent penetration but not too much, and superior expansion.

[Torre]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the replies. I definitely will consider a revolver!

Originally Posted by briandg

I have three things to consider.

Does the written law ban only hollow points, or all expanding ammo?

(4) The use of the following ammunition is prohibited for civilian purposes:
 1) gas pistol and gas revolver cartridges containing neuroparalytic substances or substances which induce skin damage, general intoxication or choking and which may cause damage to health to the extent where medical attention is required to eliminate the consequences of exposure;
 2) armour-piercing ammunition, which means a firearm cartridge the bullet of which has an armour-piercing hard core;
 3) ammunition with explosive projectiles, which means a firearm cartridge the bullet of which contains a charge which explodes upon impact with an obstruction;
 4) ammunition with incendiary projectiles, which means a firearm cartridge the bullet of which contains a substance which ignites upon impact with an obstruction;
 5) pistol or revolver cartridges with a hollow-pointed bullet;
 6) ammunition for particularly dangerous weapons. (this refers to military weapons)

Originally Posted by briandg

What are the consequences of carrying banned hollow points, and would those consequences be too much to risk?

If you do carry banned rounds and you are involved in a shooting, what criminal or civil consequences can you expect?

1. You can't get JHP anywhere legally 2. I would surely never see my gun again, or be able to buy one in the future, at the very least.

[raimius]

It is TFL policy not to have posts advocating illegal actions, so please don't suggest the OP ignore his local laws.