Short barreled shotgun, Illinois.

Mike38 · January 23, 2019, 09:08 PM

(720 ILCS 5/24-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24-1)
Sec. 24-1. Unlawful use of weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:

…..

(7) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries:

…..

(ii) any rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

With the above in mind, how the heck are those Mossberg shotguns with 14 inch barrels even legal in Illinois? I asked a salesman at a local "Farm" supply store and he told me the overall length is greater than 26 inches, thus making it legal in Illinois. But the above states barrel can not be less than 18 inches. Or, am I reading the law wrong?

Sharkbite · January 23, 2019, 09:24 PM

That statute follows Fed law.

The way the manufacturers are getting around it is a technicality of language in the law.

The Mossburg shockwave is NOT a shotgun :-0. I know that sounds strange, but its true. That gun is made as a “firearm” not a shotgun. The difference is never having a shoulder stock and being made to fire from the shoulder.

You find a similar situation with AR15 pistols. An AR lower that is made with out a shoulder stock may be turned into a pistol and use a barrel less then 16”.

There is no such thing as a smoothbore pistol in the legal sense, so its just a firearm. Since its not a “shotgun”, shotgun laws dont apply.

Thats why it comes with that birdshead grip...to get it over the 26” length limit. Change that grip to a standard pistol grip..it is now illegal. Use it as is...legal.

Gun Laws are strange things, written by non-gun people (mostly). Sometimes there are unintended results to the way things are worded.

Mike38 · January 23, 2019, 10:28 PM

So web sites like this: https://palmettostatearmory.com/moss...gun-50659.html …. are completely wrong by calling a Shockwave a shotgun? Even the salesman at the "Farm" supply store I saw one in called it a shotgun. Oh well, now I understand.

Sharkbite · January 23, 2019, 11:58 PM

If it was a “shotgun” then it would need to have a bbl of at least 18” to be legal by FEDERAL law. So, its made the way it is to be legally classified as a “firearm”.

So, yes. They are incorrect to call it a shotgun.

**44 AMP** · January 24, 2019, 12:00 AM

Ok, its simple, it is a shotgun but its not a shotgun.

as mentioned, it has to do with how the receiver is registered when manufactured. Every receiver is registered with the govt when it is made and gets a serial #. It legally becomes a firearm at that point.

Doesn't matter that at that point in the manufacturing process there are no other parts attached, the bare receiver is legally a firearm.

Now it gets a bit tricksy, due to the categories of Federal law. If the receiver is destined to be a long gun, then it gets registered as a rifle or shotgun (though still a bare receiver at this point). Once it becomes a rifle or shotgun, on paper, it cannot legally be below the Federal length requirements (after assembly) or it requires NFA paperwork (Short barrel rifle / shotgun)

But, if it is not registered as a rifle, and sold as a "firearm" then that receiver could be used to make a "firearm" with dimensions below rifle/shotgun length requirements without NFA rules applying.

The clerk, and about anyone else knows that if it fires shotgun shells, its a shotgun, and so they call it that. But its legal registration is "firearm" so specific shotgun regulations don't apply.

And its factory made, with Fed gov approval. So, its legal. If someone change it to be shorter than it is, they could be found guilty of a crime, creating an illegal weapon.

if its clear as mud now, I've done my job...

heyjoe · January 24, 2019, 01:57 PM

actually that is the best explanation i have heard yet, and i think i understand now....

dogtown tom · January 24, 2019, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Sharkbite ....There is no such thing as a smoothbore pistol in the legal sense,

Yes there is, a smoothbore handgun is an AOW (Any Other Weapon) and requires a $200 tax stamp to make, $5 tax stamp to transfer.

This is why the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor are .45LC with rifled barrels. The fact they can also chamber .410 shotshells is happenstance.

Quote:

Mike38 So web sites like this: https://palmettostatearmory.com/moss...gun-50659.html …. are completely wrong by calling a Shockwave a shotgun? Even the salesman at the "Farm" supply store I saw one in called it a shotgun. Oh well, now I understand.

What a retailer calls it and how ATF and Federal law define it aren't always the same.

Federal law defines "shotgun" and "short-barreled shotgun as follows:

Quote:

Shotgun. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

Short-barreled shotgun. A shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length, and any weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Quote:

44 AMP ….Now it gets a bit tricksy, due to the categories of Federal law. If the receiver is destined to be a long gun, then it gets registered as a rifle or shotgun (though still a bare receiver at this point).

Not quite.
A firearm frame or receiver is not a rifle, shotgun or handgun until ASSEMBLED AS SUCH. It is just a "firearm" and transfers on an ATF Form 4473 as "Other firearm" on Question 16 and as "receiver" on Question 27. The dealer records it in his records as "Other". A manufacturer does not designate a firearm as rifle, shotgun or handgun until it meets the definition in Federal law.

Quote:

Once it becomes a rifle or shotgun, on paper, it cannot legally be below the Federal length requirements (after assembly) or it requires NFA paperwork (Short barrel rifle / shotgun)

But, if it is not registered as a rifle, and sold as a "firearm" then that receiver could be used to make a "firearm" with dimensions below rifle/shotgun length requirements without NFA rules applying.

There is no "registration" of Title I firearms, only a manufacturers reporting.
A firearm frame or receiver is just a frame or receiver and what it may be built into or what it is intended to be built into is immaterial....it remains a firearm frame or receiver until assembled. A 1911 frame quite likely is only going to be built into a handgun, but is still transferred as an "Other".

Every Form 4473 has instructions to Questions 24-28 "Firearm Description" on the back (page 6of6).

Quote:

Types of firearms include, but are not limited to: pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, receiver, frame and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns) such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell (pistol grip firearm) or NFA firearms (machine gun, silencer, short-barreled shotgun, short-barreled rifle, destructive device, or "any other weapon".

The Mossberg Shockwave 590 and Remington TAC 14 aren't shotguns or short barreled shotguns because they don't meet the definitions of those firearms.

The receivers have never been assembled as shotguns (or SBS) and that allows them to be built into a pistol grip firearm that expels a shotgun shell. The OAL is important because if LESS than 26" …...they would meet the definition of an AOW or Any Other Weapon. If a shoulder stock were attached to the pistol grip firearm it would meet the definition of short barreled shotgun.

Further, CONCEALING an "Other firearm" brings it into this definition:

Quote:

Any other weapon. Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

Sharkbite · January 24, 2019, 09:51 PM

Dogtown is correct. Even his correction of my statement is spot on. Thanks for that reminder.

DaleA · January 29, 2019, 01:22 AM

Some of the laws and regulations are confusing.

I am continually grateful there are folk here that will provide clear explanations.

IMhO the laws and regulations should be written this way in the first place, but that's another discussion.

Let me repeat my thanks to those willing to take the time and effort to share their expertise with the rest of us. Remember, they read the same stuff we do, then they have to understand it and then they have to write it in a way that we can understand it. I don't think it's an easy thing to do.

January 23, 2019, 09:08 PM	#1
Mike38 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Location: North Central Illinois Posts: 2,710	Short barreled shotgun, Illinois. (720 ILCS 5/24-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24-1) Sec. 24-1. Unlawful use of weapons. (a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly: ….. (7) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries: ….. (ii) any rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches. With the above in mind, how the heck are those Mossberg shotguns with 14 inch barrels even legal in Illinois? I asked a salesman at a local "Farm" supply store and he told me the overall length is greater than 26 inches, thus making it legal in Illinois. But the above states barrel can not be less than 18 inches. Or, am I reading the law wrong?

January 24, 2019, 12:00 AM	#5
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	Ok, its simple, it is a shotgun but its not a shotgun. as mentioned, it has to do with how the receiver is registered when manufactured. Every receiver is registered with the govt when it is made and gets a serial #. It legally becomes a firearm at that point. Doesn't matter that at that point in the manufacturing process there are no other parts attached, the bare receiver is legally a firearm. Now it gets a bit tricksy, due to the categories of Federal law. If the receiver is destined to be a long gun, then it gets registered as a rifle or shotgun (though still a bare receiver at this point). Once it becomes a rifle or shotgun, on paper, it cannot legally be below the Federal length requirements (after assembly) or it requires NFA paperwork (Short barrel rifle / shotgun) But, if it is not registered as a rifle, and sold as a "firearm" then that receiver could be used to make a "firearm" with dimensions below rifle/shotgun length requirements without NFA rules applying. The clerk, and about anyone else knows that if it fires shotgun shells, its a shotgun, and so they call it that. But its legal registration is "firearm" so specific shotgun regulations don't apply. And its factory made, with Fed gov approval. So, its legal. If someone change it to be shorter than it is, they could be found guilty of a crime, creating an illegal weapon. if its clear as mud now, I've done my job... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 23, 2019, 09:24 PM	#2
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	That statute follows Fed law. The way the manufacturers are getting around it is a technicality of language in the law. The Mossburg shockwave is NOT a shotgun :-0. I know that sounds strange, but its true. That gun is made as a “firearm” not a shotgun. The difference is never having a shoulder stock and being made to fire from the shoulder. You find a similar situation with AR15 pistols. An AR lower that is made with out a shoulder stock may be turned into a pistol and use a barrel less then 16”. There is no such thing as a smoothbore pistol in the legal sense, so its just a firearm. Since its not a “shotgun”, shotgun laws dont apply. Thats why it comes with that birdshead grip...to get it over the 26” length limit. Change that grip to a standard pistol grip..it is now illegal. Use it as is...legal. Gun Laws are strange things, written by non-gun people (mostly). Sometimes there are unintended results to the way things are worded.

January 23, 2019, 10:28 PM	#3
Mike38 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Location: North Central Illinois Posts: 2,710	So web sites like this: https://palmettostatearmory.com/moss...gun-50659.html …. are completely wrong by calling a Shockwave a shotgun? Even the salesman at the "Farm" supply store I saw one in called it a shotgun. Oh well, now I understand.

January 23, 2019, 11:58 PM	#4
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	If it was a “shotgun” then it would need to have a bbl of at least 18” to be legal by FEDERAL law. So, its made the way it is to be legally classified as a “firearm”. So, yes. They are incorrect to call it a shotgun.

January 24, 2019, 01:57 PM	#6
heyjoe Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Posts: 438	actually that is the best explanation i have heard yet, and i think i understand now....

January 24, 2019, 09:51 PM	#8
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	Dogtown is correct. Even his correction of my statement is spot on. Thanks for that reminder.

January 29, 2019, 01:22 AM	#9
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Some of the laws and regulations are confusing. I am continually grateful there are folk here that will provide clear explanations. IMhO the laws and regulations should be written this way in the *first* place, but that's another discussion. Let me repeat my thanks to those willing to take the time and effort to share their expertise with the rest of us. Remember, they read the same stuff we do, then they have to *understand* it and then they have to write it in a way that we can understand it. I don't think it's an easy thing to do.