L E O carrying a revolver

[ThomasT]

I just went to the Smithsonian Museum a couple of months ago and all the personel were carrying revolvers. I don't know if the were cops or security guards but all were armed with wheel guns.

My uncle was a Ft Worth cop and carried his revolver for his career except when he was on warrant arrest duty and then he carried a S&W model 645 45acp auto. He then went to the DAs office after 28 years as a cop and I am not sure what he carried but I believe it was a snubby model 19.

He killed one man on duty way back in the 1960s with a S&W model 15 with round nose lead bullets. One shot, one kill.

[T. O'Heir]

There are PD's that allow the employees to carry whatever they can qualify with. A copper who can hit what he shoots at is far more effective than the one who is spraying shots all over.
The fact remains that most cops, anywhere, had never seen a real firearm before getting hired and consider their issue piece as another heavy thing they're required to lug around.
"...example of the failure of the wonder nine..." Nope. That's operator failure. Machines can neither pass or fail.

[DPris]

I would not, today, with the advanced 9mm ammunition available, consider the caliber to be grossly inadequate.
I would just consider the .357 or the .45 Colt to be somewhat......less grossly inadequate.

With the right bullet in those two, people shot with them tend to stay shot.
(Said with no intention of provoking a caliber war. )
Denis

[fastbolt]

Originally Posted by DPris

Had I been allowed, I would have done my entire police career with a .357 Magnum.
Had I been allowed at my last PD, I would have continued to carry my Smith 25-5 in .45 Colt till retirement when the Glocks were adopted.
Denis

I understand and empathize.

I know some other experienced cops and firearms instructors who feel the same way. Of course, since gun belts have largely turned into "equipment " belts, and are festooned with more things that Batman ever dreamed of carrying on his Utility Belt, there would be a bit of a cost to pay in weapon weight. Gone are the days when all I had to carry in uniform was a gun, speedloaders, a single cuff case (I carried spare cuffs tucked over the gun belt), flashlight & baton rings and a radio swivel holster.

Although I carried an issued .357MAG revolver for several years, at various times I later ended up carrying a hi-cap 9 or .40, and ended my regular career carrying a 7+1 compact .45 (4513TSW). I continued to carry that .45 as a reserve, but eventually traded it for a single stack 9 (3913TSW), and then finally one of the plastic pistols being adopted for issue. In my case it was a M&P 40, although we also issued M&P 9's and .45's. I just opted for the .40 because there were lines for the 9's and .45's, and I didn't really care what caliber weapon I was carrying as a reserve. They all shot the same for me.

For the OP's thread ...

The last time I saw a couple of uniformed cops wearing holstered revolvers, it was a couple campus cops at a local junior college. (One of them was apparently the chief.)

[FITASC]

YOUR JOB HAS LIVES ON THE LINE.

Use enough gun with enough firepower for the job! I don’t care who you are, revolvers are totally insufficient for police use in 2018! Leave nostalgia where it belongs, in the past!

You mean like the NYPD cops who fired 51 shots to hit a suspect about 3 times? Where did all those other rounds go?
Better to have a cop who knows how to shoot and stop a threat with 1-2 shots, than some young untrained kid who can't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside....

[COSteve]

I agree that in the hands of an experienced shooter, a revolver is a good piece, however, with it's much higher bore axis it puts more torque on the shooter's wrist. Further, the inverted conical shape of a revolver's grip is harder to grip solidly than the grip of a semi-auto. Together, it can be harder for many to learn to shoot well with a revolver.

That's why many women and smaller stature males with less grip and wrist strength find it easier to learn to shoot well with the lower bore axis of a semi-auto. That's more of a training issue, not an intrinsic element of either type of handgun.

I also agree that more rounds may only mean more misses with more chances to hit innocents with a poorly shooting officer. We let Police & Sheriff Departments, the State Police, and Military use our private range for free and I've seen many departments train the troops. I'm amazed that some departments work for well trained officers while others just ensure that their troopers know which end the bullet comes out of.

[dgludwig]

My agency transitioned from revolvers to Smith & Wesson "Third Generation" autos, chambered in 9mm, sometime in the mid-eighties. There was/is nothing wrong with those durable and reliable Smith autos nor the 9mm cartridge and there is something to be said about having more bullets on board and the benefit of a speedy reload but if I was allowed to have had my druthers, it would still be a Model 58 revolver, chambered in .41 Magnum. My second choice would be a Smith Model 686 "Plus", chambered in .357 Magnum, with either revolver having a four-inch long barrel.
Familiarity and good training breeds competency.

[Nanuk]

He killed one man on duty way back in the 1960s with a S&W model 15 with round nose lead bullets. One shot, one kill.

I was a Ft Worth cop in the 80's. Did not know they ever used the crappy RNL 38's.

[Nanuk]

There was/is nothing wrong with those durable and reliable Smith autos nor the 9mm cartridge and there is something to be said about having more bullets on board and the benefit of a speedy reload

Define speedy reload. I can load my K/L frame 357's in about 1.5 seconds from last shot to loaded, nowhere near Jerry Michulec but faster than the average cop shooting a Glock.

[Nanuk]

Further, the inverted conical shape of a revolver's grip is harder to grip solidly than the grip of a semi-auto.

Say what? I used Pachmayer grippers in the 1980's.

[dgludwig]

Define speedy reload.

Given the same amount of practice and level of expertise, I would argue that reloading a typical semi-auto will be more "speedy" than reloading a typical revolver. I got to be pretty quick reloading a revolver with a speed loader but never as fast or as sure as reloading an auto with a magazine exchange. I'm speaking only for myself but, for me, fast reloads with a revolver took lots more practice to be truly proficient with a speed loader than with a magazine reload in an auto.
As always, YMMV.

[Cosmodragoon]

We had that problem in the 1980's. There was just no internet to post it on.

Many younger folks today don't know and many older folks seem to have forgotten. Inner city crime and violence were major issues through the late 1970s with the crack epidemic and big gangs rising in the 80s. They didn't have internet back then but the public interest and mass fear are certainly reflected in media, from the Death Wish movie series to original Law and Order. Glorified reflections of it shaped Gangsta Rap and other media throughout the 90s and somehow, either things have gotten a little better or media and popular coverage of these things have changed.

[ThomasT]

I was a Ft Worth cop in the 80's. Did not know they ever used the crappy RNL 38's.

In the 60s I think everyone did. My uncle was still on the Ft Worth PD in the 80s. You may have known him. He was A.J. Tiroff. Known as Joe Tiroff. The BG he killed on duty was named Earl Gratz. But I am not sure I am spelling Gratz correctly. I think it was the late 1980s when he retired and went to the DAs office as an investigator. He died in 2003 with me on an Elk hunt.

[Auto5]

We had a couple of reserves (semi retired part timers) who carried wheel guns. The DC carried an older chief's special on his belt. Rumor has it that it was even loaded.

[Nanuk]

In the 60s I think everyone did. My uncle was still on the Ft Worth PD in the 80s. You may have known him. He was A.J. Tiroff. Known as Joe Tiroff. The BG he killed on duty was named Earl Gratz. But I am not sure I am spelling Gratz correctly. I think it was the late 1980s when he retired and went to the DAs office as an investigator. He died in 2003 with me on an Elk hunt.

His name sounds familiar. Was he a Homicide Detective? I left in 1988 to work for the Border Patrol in El Paso.

[Nanuk]

Given the same amount of practice and level of expertise, I would argue that reloading a typical semi-auto will be more "speedy" than reloading a typical revolver. I got to be pretty quick reloading a revolver with a speed loader but never as fast or as sure as reloading an auto with a magazine exchange. I'm speaking only for myself but, for me, fast reloads with a revolver took lots more practice to be truly proficient with a speed loader than with a magazine reload in an auto.
As always, YMMV.

I can reload my Glock faster than my wheelie too. But a wheel gun is far from obsolete if you know how to run one.

[ThomasT]

His name sounds familiar. Was he a Homicide Detective? I left in 1988 to work for the Border Patrol in El Paso.

Yes he was. If you remember the Karen Koslow murder he worked that. He also was on the homosexual murders by Ricky Lee Green when he killed that channel 5 reporter. There was a book written about Ricky Lee Green and my uncle was mentioned several times in it. They also made one of the American Justice/Justice Files shows about the Koslow murder and you can see my uncle coming out of the front door of the Koslow house.

When he was a young cop he did the photagraphy for the PD. After Oswald was killed he took the autopsy pics for the FWPD since he lived in FW for a time. He brought copies by our house and let us see them. I was only about 6-7 at the time but my parents let me look at every single picture of Lee gutted like a fish and whip stitched back together.

Other notable investigations he made the news on was the West Wind auto theft ring. I was proud of my uncle. He was my spare dad. We shot guns and shot the falling plate matches at the Ft Worth Rifle And Pistol Club before Ft Worth decided there was more money to be made by developing the property. He ran the match and I ran the timer. What a blast that was. Did you know a cop named Pat Grogan? He shot with us and was my uncles friend. Pat was a different bird I can tell you.

My uncle died with me on the side of a mountain in Gunnison Colorado on an Elk hunt. He died 9 months to the day after my dad died. And in between one of my best friends died. It was a very bad year for me. But while he was my spare dad I was the son he never had. He had two girls but wanted a son. We did a lot together. I miss my uncle. And my dad.

[Sharkbite]

I started with a wheelgun (Smith M64), if thats what i had on hand today, id put it to good use (and i did back then).

However, that does not mean its the best tool for the job today.

Having 15 rounds on tap does not mean i have to “spray and pray”. It means i have the ability to land mtpl shots and not have an empty (or mostly empty) gun. That makes mtpl attackers easier to deal with. It means i dont have to be concerned (as much) with reloading under most shooting conditions.

If im shooting at somebody behind cover or inside a vehicle i can take those shots without being ammo capacity challenged.

Low capacity, slower to reload, harder to master (longer & heavier) trigger pull. I dont see the allure of using a Revolver as a LEO today. Using the best tool fornthe job at hand just makes sense. No LEO today is driving a 1980’s patrol car or a radio from that era.

[rock185]

I haven't seen any revolvers carried as a primary weapons by uniformed officers lately. Revolvers seem to have been relegated to the role of 2nd./back up weapons in police work. I carried a revolver for my first 13 years. Never thought the Dept. would allow any semi-auto as a primary weapon. But when 9mm SIGs, and IIRC S&Ws and Berettas, were authorized, I was one of the guys who jumped on it. I carried the SIG P226 initially, then other semi-autos afterwards. That being said, if I'd been restricted to carrying the S&W .357 revolver carried previously, for the rest of my career, I don't believe I'd have been inadequately armed. BTW, on one occasion I was carrying Glock, with a whole bunch of ammo in the magazine. All that ammo in the high capacity magazine didn't help me much. It suffered a serious stoppage after the first round was fired. I only wish I'd been carrying one of those antiquated low capacity revolvers

[shurshot]

Off duty, after 30 years, for personal carry I prefer a revolver (although I do on occasion carry a pistol depending on the season). It comes down to a matter of trust. Seen far too many jams during qualifications over the years due to limp wristing, bad mags / ammo, weather conditions, etc. And, at close / bad breath range, if a pistol muzzle is pressed against a target, the slide comes out of battery, weapon may not fire the first shot and or the 2nd won't cycle properly. Not good if you get jumped and end up on the ground or against a car, wall, etc. with one or more degenerates trying to stab you or choke you out. With a revolver... just jab them in the ribs with the muzzle and pull the trigger until they let go. Something to consider as many deadly assaults and confrontations end up very close and personal. I would carry a revolver on duty if allowed by policy. I just shoot revolvers better, perhaps because that's what I started with as a kid. Accuracy and reliability trumps firepower, at least from my perspective. Carry what you will, but train, train, and train some more. And, avoid your worst enemy... Ego.

[Nanuk]

Rat, I was a patrol cop at the time. I worked the east Lancaster area as a rookie and the Evans and Rosedale until I went to the Border Patrol. I knew Pat, he was a good guy, as was your uncle. He also came out to the scene of a body in a trunk I helped at in the Trinity River bottoms. Your uncle was a no nonsense kind of guy. Sorry for your loss, sounds like he died doing what he loved.

Small world.

[Nanuk]

No LEO today is driving a 1980’s patrol car or a radio from that era.

I would rather drive an 83 Malibu than these new crunchers. But alas.... they are all rotted out by now....

[Drm50]

I sold a lot of guns to small local PDs while in business from 70-90s. Most of the
PDs had less than 10 officers. The last big batches of revolvers I sold were 686s
in early 80s. Before that m19s. By middle 80s started selling 1911s, S&W 39s
and Berreta 92s. I think that most of the officers in these small departments
were better off with a good revolver. They get limited training compared to big
city PDs. Everyone thinks cops are all gun experts, when most of them are not.
That doesn't mean they are stupid either, they aren't bashful about reaching for
shotgun or rifle. They just found a cop guilty of murder for shooting a doped up
felon 16 times. The cop is getting burnt for PC. Felon was advancing with knife
and cop was in fear for his life. Under these conditions he emptied on the Bad
guy. Now because he shot 16 times he is going to jail for murder. This same
situation has happened several times and got cops into trouble. Yes, under
combat conditions a hi cap auto is needed. It boils down not to revolver or auto
it's the individual and training.

[ThomasT]

Rat, I was a patrol cop at the time. I worked the east Lancaster area as a rookie and the Evans and Rosedale until I went to the Border Patrol. I knew Pat, he was a good guy, as was your uncle. He also came out to the scene of a body in a trunk I helped at in the Trinity River bottoms. Your uncle was a no nonsense kind of guy. Sorry for your loss, sounds like he died doing what he loved.

Small world.

I grew up in the East Lancaster area. My mother still lives at the same house at the junction of House St and Vinson Ave. That was my stomping ground after we moved from just west on Lancaster at Panola and Canyon Ridge. Yep small world. Thanks for your kind words.

I can thank my uncle for my preference in revolvers. It was what he liked and preferred to carry on duty. In the book "The Snubby Revolver" Ed Lovett states that the NYPD did a study and in over 6000 shooting with revolvers there hadn't been a single failure of the guns in use. Thats a pretty good track record for an outdated gun design.

[DPris]

My senior "thesis" in an LE college program in 1982 was "Auto vs Revolver For Police".
I was around during the transition.
I read all the hoopla in gunmags.
I remember all the arguments.
I was there during the 1975-1985 push for police to transition to autos "because we're out-gunned".

Seeing this thread veer into a direction regurgitating all the old discussions is one thing, but seeing the adamant & dogmatic "GOTTA have an auto to do the job" is just silly.

The auto offers certain advantages to many cops & a very small handful of situations, but saying it's absolutely REQUIRED across the board is idiotic.
Denis