Annealing?

[Metal god]

Bill, we try not to exceed 750 degrees at the neck/shoulder area so we don't inadvertently soften the much thicker brass at the base

No we don't , If done correctly only applying the flame/heat to the neck and shoulder you will never get close to heating the base/head enough to soften it with out ruining the case for reloading . I did tests that showed I could not heat the neck and shoulder enough to get the head hot enough to soften it . I put 750* tempilaq just below the shoulder and 450* close to the base . To get the 450* to melt at the base the shoulder and neck were glowing red for several seconds ruining the case for reloading . It's clear the necks were cooked and the heads barely got to 450* if at all , most of the 450* temp indicator never melted at the head/base .

Why "too soft?" Brass can then be worked until it again needs annealing.

This is not really an option for a reloader . Over annealing a cartridge case can result in very low bullet hold and pull . This can result in bullet set back in semi auto as well as other issues . We as reloader would need to load those very soft and unsafe cases and shoot them more then once to rework them to a harder state , again not something most of us are willing to do so annealing to the correct softness in the first place for a cartridge case is very important .

[P Flados]

Brass is brass, working hardens it and full annealing restores it to what I call dead soft.

I form cases from one cartridge to another.

I do a full anneal (dull red) of the necks before I get to the final diameter.

The final diameter adjustment restores some work hardening.

If you do a full anneal without further working of the brass, it can result in low bullet neck tension.

If you shoot a break open single shot, this is not a real problem. Many other guns can work ok with low neck tension, but you may have to be careful.

If your cartridge is a bottle neck, and needs more neck tension, you can do a full anneal, and then run it up and down in the sizer with expander button a few times add some work hardening back into the brass.

[F. Guffey]

Or, you can use the ultra-scientific method that has worked for over 100 years-
Stand the cases primer-side down in a pan with water covering the rear 1/3 of the case. Heat the case to dull red with a propane torch.
You can not overheat the case heads this way.

Many years ago I decided there had to be rule to annealing so I sat down and starting looking for rules. After I got a few/short list of rules I made an annealer based on a few rules. It worked, and then I took a few to the gun show, placed them on the table and spent two days trying to explain to reloaders what they were and how they were used. I had no ideal reloaders had that far to go.

They could not understand: Here is what I do and here is the reason why. I guess I would have been better off had I allowed them to burn their hands but I decided against that, that would just seem mean.

F. Guffey

[Bill DeShivs]

The idea that fully annealed (dead soft) brass can not be work hardened is plain wrong. Whether it can be effectively work hardened enough by resizing, I don't know. Seems to me that it can be.

In the small amount of reloading handgun ammunition that I did many years ago, I fully annealed the cases when they needed it-and they seemed to work just fine.

I do now understand that reloaders don't want fully annealed cases, though it shouldn't be a problem if you resize later.

I also understand that most reloaders don't have a clue about brass, and are just doing what they have been told.

[RC20]

Bill D:

While I was wrong on jumping on you (and apologized) you do continue to stun me.

A great deal of evidence has been presented as the the extreme dangers of annealing the whole case (lethal) and you then decide that resizing it once work hardens it sufficiently to make it ok.

That is grossly irresponsible (and worse). You are encouraging someone to do something that can maim or kill them based on no evidence other than an uniformed opinion.

All the annealing data contradict what you are saying that you can work harden the brass at all, let alone in one sizing to restore any temper to the brass.

No one addresses it because it can't be done (resize it 1000 time maybe, but how do you expand it before the case is shot?)

Clearly the over anneal of the shoulder and neck does not destroy a case, I have also done it and it was not awful shooting.

If you read the annealing like by KT, you would have seen a expert shooter also over anneals. That means simply that annealing is not a big factor in accarucy, it may help that its annealed each time .

But to run with that and say anneal the whole case and then re-size it and its good is totally irresponsible. You don't reload so you would not suffer the damage either would you?

People come to this site for good information, not some kind of flat earth theory (which you can believe but to pass it on when it can impact someones life severely is (just leave this blank and insert your own verbiage of negativity) Clueless is indeed the right word but you should be looking in the mirror and asking you self that question.

[LineStretcher]

Kilotanker22, good to see you've weeded through this train wreck. Here's a link to Bench Source, the company that makes the annealing machine that I have. I can rip through a 100 cases in no time and they come out perfect.

http://bench-source.com/id81.html

As a side note to all this mania. Yes, you can anneal as often as you want, it doesn't hurt the case if you perform the process correctly. Get yourself some 650 degree Templaq to use when setting up for the annealing. If you change case types/calibers you have to do the setup again.

If you use the drill/socket method just be aware that the socket will store heat and will get quite hot if you have a lot of cases to do. That heat can then transfer to the drill motor and potentially damage it. Cool the socket in water often and you shouldn't have any problems.

[kilotanker22]

The reason I am considering annealing my cases. Is, because of the 270 wsm. It has a pretty tight chamber. And I have to full length size every time. I have about 100 cases that have 8 or so firings on them. And after the last firing I am noticing some carbon below the neck into the shoulder.

I assumed this was caused by the case necks and shoulder starting to harden a little too much. I have no cracked necks or any other signed of failure as of yet. So to avoid paying $1 a piece for new brass. I figure that I could maybe get much longer case life by annealing the ones I have.

Also I have hundreds of 6.5 Creedmoor brass. Mostly RP and Winchester.i intend to use the Winchester for my hunting rig and the RP for the Target/Tactical rifle I just ordered. Or vise versa. The Winchester cases I have. All have 6 firings on them except for a few that are once fired. I have noticed less case growth per firing and more resistance when sizing. Presumably the result of the brass work hardening.

I have considered scrapping all of my brass and buying new for the 6.5. the Winchester caases seem to laast about 5-6 firings then get loose primer pockets on about 50 percent of cases. If I do that. I will keep the 100 pieces of once fired RP brass. For my hunting rig. And the either buy Lapua or Starline small primer brass for the Target/tactical rig.

Also worth noting is that when I debur and chamfer the different brands of brass. You can feel that some are definitely harder than others. For example. Even after the first firing. The Winchester brass feels considerably harder than the RP brass. Also, trimmed to the same length and fire formed in the same rifle. With the same die setting. The shoulder on the RP brass is set back .002 further than the Winchester brass. Leading me to believe that the Winchester brass is considerably harder.

Do my presumptions based on the observations I have made track with what you guys all have experienced?

[Metal god]

The idea that fully annealed (dead soft) brass can not be work hardened is plain wrong. Whether it can be effectively work hardened enough by resizing, I don't know. Seems to me that it can be.

I don't want to come off rude but just because you are correct does not mean you're right . I get that maybe I can anneal to dead soft then work harden by running it through the resizing die ( still questionable ) but for this conversation lets assume that is correct , full stop . Why would that be a desirable method if I can just anneal the case to a temperature that would not require that ? Not sure about how you liked to reload back in the day but I sure want to work my press as little as possible to get a single round loaded . I just don't see the appeal to running a case up and down in the sizing die 5 , 10 , 20 times ( what ever that number would be ) for each round loaded just to harden up the neck to the same point I could of had in the first place by never getting the brass dead soft .

I do agree that the best work hardening would be firing the case then resizing . This will expand the neck much more resulting in needing to size it down more . This would help in the work hardening of the case much more then just running it through the sizing die many times .

EXAMPLE

My fired 308 case neck outside diameter is .344 . When full length sized the neck is sized down to .327 and then expanded back to .334 when the expander is pulled back through the neck . So you can have .007 of work hardening by running in and out of the sizing die many times or .017 of work hardening by sizing an actual fired case . Not to mention the extruding and other movements going on when FL sizing a fired case that does not happen if all you are doing is FL sizing a case that has already been FL sized .

Your argument may be technically correct but I don't believe it to be right for this application , cartridge brass annealing . Yes all brass is brass but how you use it is not .

[LineStretcher]

The reason I am considering annealing my cases. Is, because of the 270 wsm. It has a pretty tight chamber. And I have to full length size every time. I have about 100 cases that have 8 or so firings on them. And after the last firing I am noticing some carbon below the neck into the shoulder.

Ironically, my McMillan G30 Dynasty in 270WSM is what got me on the annealing bandwagon. Tight chambers cause cases to grow in length when they can't grow in diameter so it's rare that neck sizing will work and a full length resize will often need to be more than the quasi standard .002 shoulder bump.

Because it can be difficult case to resize properly, annealing is usually the best solution. An almost equally good solution is to buy good brass and develop your loads using that. Since your chamber is tight, there is little advantage to using fire formed brass. This is what I do now for my 270 WSM.

For you other calibers, annealing can certainly extend the number of reloads you might get from your cases simply because you are not stressing them as much during the resize process. Just realize that annealing is a process and that process is another step in your reloading efforts. If you have the time then by all means, learn how to do it but if time counts then just buy new brass.

[kilotanker22]

Originally Posted by LineStretcher

Ironically, my McMillan G30 Dynasty in 270WSM is what got me on the annealing bandwagon. Tight chambers cause cases to grow in length when they can't grow in diameter so it's rare that neck sizing will work and a full length resize will often need to be more than the quasi standard .002 shoulder bump.

Because it can be difficult case to resize properly, annealing is usually the best solution. An almost equally good solution is to buy good brass and develop your loads using that. Since your chamber is tight, there is little advantage to using fire formed brass. This is what I do now for my 270 WSM.

For you other calibers, annealing can certainly extend the number of reloads you might get from your cases simply because you are not stressing them as much during the resize process. Just realize that annealing is a process and that process is another step in your reloading efforts. If you have the time then by all means, learn how to do it but if time counts then just buy new brass.

Full length sizing in my 270 WSM moves the shoulder .004-.005. They generally need to be trimmed every firing. Am I correct in my assumption that the brass is hardening and not sealing the chamber enough? I have never seen carbon on the shoulder. only the necks until now.

[LineStretcher]

Originally Posted by kilotanker22

Full length sizing in my 270 WSM moves the shoulder .004-.005. They generally need to be trimmed every firing. Am I correct in my assumption that the brass is hardening and not sealing the chamber enough? I have never seen carbon on the shoulder. only the necks until now.

I think you're correct. Once they get hardened they may fail to expand and contract (spring back). The failure to expand is likely due to work hardening and is preventing the tight seal at the chamber from occurring. This might explain the carbon on the shoulders. I'm saying "may" and "might" because I'm on a keyboard and not holding the case in my hands and physically checking it.

The fact that you are trimming often and the amount of bump needed is normally a strong indication of a tight chamber. Since the round can't expand like it does in a one size fits all chamber it must grow in length. Check your primers closely, you can often see some flattening or a ring around the outside of the firing pin strike. Those signs are often interpreted as lack of proper headspace and that can be true but it can also be a tight chamber.

[Metal god]

Tight chambers cause cases to grow in length when they can't grow in diameter

Can someone explain to me in a little more detail how this works . In my head I'm not seeing how that can be true . When speaking about neck sizing only ( not specific to this thread but in general ) Wouldn't a neck only sized cartridge fit in the chamber just like a rifle that has a tight chamber ?? I don't neck size only . Do guys that only neck size need to trim every time , I thought they did not need to ???

The reason the OP needs to trim every time appears to me to be the fact he is bumping the shoulders back as much as .005 each time not to mention what ever he is sizing down the overall diameter of the case body . All that brass being pushed around is being forced/extruded forward towards the neck making it longer resulting in the need to trim every time . If he only bumps the shoulders .001 to .002 he likely will not need to trim as much .

I'd ask the OP if that .004 to .005 bump is needed or just what he has the FL die set to do ?

[kilotanker22]

On this particular rifle. Primers don't flatten until I start to get hot in the loads. Gun shoots lights out. I never have hard extraction or bolt lift. I am pretty sure that Headspace is fine.

[Bill DeShivs]

RC20-
Jeez! I never said anything about annealing the entire case! My inference to "cases" should be taken into context with what I wrote earlier about annealing in a pan of water to prevent annealing the entire case. Perhaps I should have said "case necks" in my last post. I'm not stupid, and I have stated that full cases should not be annealed.

I said when cartridge brass is made, it is made from fully annealed brass. You seem to be the one who is giving incorrect information. You sure read the wrong stuff into what I write!

Of course brass can be work hardened- it's the only way you CAN harden brass!

I'm assuming that if a case NECK is fully annealed, that ONE simple resizing can work harden it enough for proper bullet tension. That was my experience, anyway.

Running a case in/out of a sizing die would accomplish nothing. After the first resize, additional resizings would have no effect- like sweeping a clean floor. Cases work-harden by shooting (expands) and resizing (contracts.)

[F. Guffey]

Can someone explain to me in a little more detail how this works

I have my doubts that can be done; it seems it took me 'forever' to get reloaders to consider it is latterly impossible to bump and or move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support.

F. Guffey

[RC20]

Well you did say cases and we are in a very specific area.

Hard to know what you know or don't, you provide no support that sizing and shooting will work harden the neck and shoulder back to its original.

The experts in this area say you can't. Good enough for me.

[RC20]

I have my doubts that can be done; it seems it took me 'forever' to get reloaders to consider it is latterly impossible to bump and or move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support.

We sure can be stubborn when we find something that works.

I don't know why you put up with us?

[kilotanker22]

Originally Posted by Metal god

Can someone explain to me in a little more detail how this works . In my head I'm not seeing how that can be true . When speaking about neck sizing only ( not specific to this thread but in general ) Wouldn't a neck only sized cartridge fit in the chamber just like a rifle that has a tight chamber ?? I don't neck size only . Do guys that only neck size need to trim every time , I thought they did not need to ???

The reason the OP needs to trim every time appears to me to be the fact he is bumping the shoulders back as much as .005 each time not to mention what ever he is sizing down the overall diameter of the case body . All that brass being pushed around is being forced/extruded forward towards the neck making it longer resulting in the need to trim every time . If he only bumps the shoulders .001 to .002 he likely will not need to trim as much .

I'd ask the OP if that .004 to .005 bump is needed or just what he has the FL die set to do ?

I have a hard time chambering brass that is not fully sized in that rifle. I went through a test to see how much I needed to size the brass to fit the chamber easily. I started by screwing the die down flush with the shell holder and backed it off 1 turn. Then advanced the die by 1/8 turn until the brass would chamber easily. It ended up being flush with the shell holder and advanced 1/8 turn. I have only ever measured it once. with just one piece of brass and it was right between .004 and .005 set back. I guess what I should do is to measure them again using a larger sample size. I will run the same test tonight but use 10 pieces of brass. And re check the setback of the shoulder.

Also worth noting is that I have been trimming the brass to 2.095. I have trimmed every firing although I dont always measure every firing and the amount of brass removed at each trimming is minimal. I did not intend to make it seem like I absolutely had to trim each time. And honestly I am not certain the amount of growth each firing.

The amount of Carbon on the shoulder is also minimal. I will try to post a photo tonight if I remember. This last firing was the 8th firing. And I had not noticed carbon on the shoulder on any previous firings. Also The case necks get cleaned before sizing inside and out. I am not super concerned really. Although the appearance of carbon on the shoulder that hadn't happened before lead me to believe that the brass could be hardening.

I could be wrong.... I guess maybe it's possible that I did not clean the case lube from the shoulder on the sample of cases that is in question. Or there could have been a little oil in the chamber. I am not 100% sure. Up to this point the rifle has been a stellar shooter and I have not had a reason that called for change in my process . Regular .3" CTC 5 round groups at 100 yards. And Average of 2" Groups at 300 yards. Although I have squeezed several 1'-1.5 inch 5 round groups at 300 with this load.

[kilotanker22]

Originally Posted by F. Guffey

I have my doubts that can be done; it seems it took me 'forever' to get reloaders to consider it is latterly impossible to bump and or move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support.

F. Guffey

It's definitely possible. Measure Cartridge base to Datum. Then Full length size and it definitely Will change the dimension both diameter of the case as well as the cartridge base to Datum.

I find it difficult to understand the point you are trying to make in about 75% of posts I read that you wrote. So Maybe I am just Misunderstanding your statement. Or is it a question? Or Sarcasm, simply for fun? Either way, it's usually pretty entertaining.

[RC20]

Its not unusual for any of my guns to have carbon forward of the shoulder.

Flashes of it down the case is too low a pressure round to seal right.

Anneal is best done about every 5 x unless you are a bench rest shooter.

Most cases I have shot will go upwards of 10 but 5 is safe. Some may be less than 10.

[kilotanker22]

Originally Posted by RC20

Its not unusual for any of my guns to have carbon forward of the shoulder.

Flashes of it down the case is too low a pressure round to seal right.

Anneal is best done about every 5 x unless you are a bench rest shooter.

Most cases I have shot will go upwards of 10 but 5 is safe. Some may be less than 10.

I don't know what my pressure is of course. But I am getting 3275 AVG velocity from a 130 grain Sierra SBT in a 22 inch barrel. I am .5 grains below Hodgdons starting data and midrange of Speer's Load data for 130 grain BT with H-1000. I was shooting 1 full grain hotter for a long time. But the ES and SD was much tighter with the load I have now..

[kilotanker22]

Also no carbon down the case at all. Only a small bit on the shoulder. That was not present before

[LineStretcher]

Originally Posted by kilotanker22

Also no carbon down the case at all. Only a small bit on the shoulder. That was not present before

If we're still talking about the 270 WSM. I think I understand that this flash over only happens after 5 or so resizes. I suspect you're seeing a faint carbon ring just slightly above the shoulder. Am I correct?

I think at least a few of the responders here may not know what a WSM case looks like other than pictures. I think if they did it would be easier to understand what's going on.

I also have a funny feeling that some may not fully understand that a FL sizing die means that the die is made to size not only the neck but the shoulder area too. The case thickens too much to be reformed much further down than that.

Since you don't have much chance of reforming the lower half of the case you are basically squeezing the upper half of the case back to the shape of the die. Is that bumping the shoulder back? If you mean bumping it back to normal then yes. If you mean bumping it back further than normal, that's almost impossible. Your most likely result if you try will be that the case will swell about half way down the body and it will stick in the die. I'm speaking to normal resizing not Wildcating. That's a different subject altogether.

When reloaders speak of bumping back the shoulder .002, they are speaking to fire formed brass. They mean that they only want to move the shoulder back .002 rather than take it back to spec. They do this as a way of keeping the headspace optimized.

Squeezing a case back to normal after firing works the brass. When it expanded, the length shortened and when you compress it back, it lengthened. The continued expanding and compressing causes the metal to become hardened and more difficult to expand and compress.

One way to deal with hardening is to just let it go until it no longer chambers after resizing or if it splits or if a bright ring forms somewhere on the case. When that happens, just throw the case away.

Another way to deal with it is to not allow the metal to become work hardened to a failure point and instead, anneal it to put the brass back to a workable state. Notice I did not say you were returning it back to it's new brass state? That's because you probably don't have equipment capable of that level of accuracy nor do you know what the original state was. We'll settle for close in this case.

Now to address the WSM family of cartridges. Because of the design of the case, they are notorious for rapidly becoming work hardened. It is not by design but a result of the design. You will find yourself annealing frequently or just replacing the brass with new brass. With my .270 WSM I quit annealing after I found a good recipe and now just buy new brass. Why, because it is a 6000.00 hunting rifle not a range gun. I shoot maybe 20 rounds a year.

[44 AMP]

On the other side of the coin, I've been reloading for over 40 years, load for over 30 different rifle and pistol rounds, and have never, ever, not once annealed a case.

And I don't lose cases to neck splits (other than very old .38 SPL brass. Oh, and I FULL LENGTH resize every time. I don't neck size.

And I've still got cases that I first loaded in the 70s.

If you are losing cases to neck splits, go ahead and anneal, but if you aren't why bother??

[RC20]

44 AMP: Not sure how you do that, my necks split about the 8th firing.