They want to poison wild hogs Texas

[Iwanttoshootbettter]

Stupidest thing I've ever herd sorry no info to back it up but if some wants to add confirmation.We hunters know good n well these beasts are a problem to farmers n ranchers.Im may not be the smartest man but poison is just plain stupid Here's what I'll say to those who think ranchers and outfitters charging to hunt is the sole reason for the overpopulation of hogs.....you're crazy. If outfitters or landowners charged $1 it would be too much to these folks. There has to be a financial gap stop in place to justify the liability associated with allowing property access to people with weapons (gun/bow/dogs). Period.

Just simply stating that overpopulation should be controlled by introducing a poison pesticide into the ecosystem for an animal that has an average home range of 2 miles, most of which often includes natural property boundaries such as creeks and lakes, is insane. Not to mention that the table fare is extremely edible and often consumed by humans and other predators/scavengers. So hypothetically, a farmer, who I very much have he utmost respect for, has 400 acres of bottom ground which often gets torn up by hogs during planting season. That farmer decides to poison the hogs causing the damage. The hogs eat the laced bait and travel off his property onto a working cattle ranch with 5,000 head of cattle and die in the feedlot. Now what? The cattle get sick and die because their food and water sources are contaminated? And who's idea was it to poison an animal that roams 2 miles into another man's form of income? Or maybe 1 of the hogs on the cattle ranch gets picked off by me? I open up the hog and don't notice any blue fat so I eat it. But come to find out the hog did have poison in its system, just not enough to be fatal and now I'm consuming meat with poison in it. So do I put myself or my family at risk because we like to eat wild pork? Or do I quit hunting hogs for fear that the meat has some level of poison in it and I'm in a moral quagmire because I like to eat what I kill?

The point is, damage is damage. Want to stop the damage, build a fence....or a wall in Don's case. If you have intruders impacting your way of life, protect your turf. I'm just saying don't poison the problem and turn it loose onto your neighbors property. That's irresponsible and what we as sportsman should be 100% against. Like I said, I love farmers and the ag community, but these are feral hogs, not mice. Make sure you understand the collateral damage before you introduce something you can't take back.

[Wyosmith]

Well most I have spoken to are charging a LOT LOT LOT more then $1.

If the poisoning is not wanted it's not too late for them to rethink their positions and pricing. It is after all, private land.

[FITASC]

They are going to go from making a few bucks and having their problem dealt with in a win-win scenario to paying out a lot of money for poison and carcass removal.......their land, their choice - perhaps they should look at Argentina and other S.A. countries where they have a game "pest" issue.

[shootbrownelk]

I don't think poisons would be legal. Poisons that kill the target animal inadvertently would kill other critters that would also eat the poisoned bait, like deer/turkeys etc. Plus any raptors or scavengers that would feed on the carcass. Not real smart on the farmer/ranchers part to use poison.

[Art Eatman]

We don't have enough information to do more than speculate.

Legality would be a State matter.

For instance, how long does it take for the poison to kill? How long before the hog becomes too weak to travel?

I've read a snippet claiming that hogs are more susceptible to warfarin than other animals. Could be; I don't know. If they are, it could be a viable method of control.

Best to sit back and wait until more information is available.

[T. O'Heir]

Who is 'they'? Poison has been a typical response by cattle ranchers and farmers for eons. Anything else is too slow and expensive. S'why all the wolves, et al, died.

[FITASC]

The ingredients in clay targets are supposed to be harmful to swine - maybe those ranchers need to open up some trap/skeet/sporting clays courses near the hog feeders!

[Slamfire]

Oh yes, poisoning hogs and having their poisoned bodies lying around is just brilliant. A brilliant way to drive your vulture population to extinction. The nation of India has managed to do this with their commercial cattle feedlots. They have been feeding their cattle drugs, some of the cattle died, vultures ate the cattle and all the vultures died. Now they have a real disease problem on their hands

From Wikipeidia: Indian vulture crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_vulture_crisis

The sudden collapse of the natural animal disposal system in India has had multiple consequences. The carcasses formerly eaten by vultures rot in village fields leading to contaminated drinking water. The disappearance of vultures has allowed other species such as rat and wild dog populations to grow. These newly abundant scavengers are not as efficient as vultures. A vulture’s metabolism is a true “dead-end” for pathogens, but dogs and rats become carriers of the pathogens.

The mammals also carry diseases from rotting carcasses such as rabies, anthrax, plague etc. and are indirectly responsible for thousands of human deaths.

Indian Vultures Are Dying for Some Good News

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...ome-good-news/


‘Decline in vulture population has given rise to diseases’: Dr Vibhu Prakash

http://indianexpress.com/article/lif...akash-3001298/

[Snyper]

They are going to use Warfarin, which is highly toxic to hogs but not so much to many other species.

The effects tend to be cumulative so it can take several doses before it reaches a level that will kill the animal.

It's not going to kill everything that might consume the carcasses.

It's just one more tool that can be used to control a pest problem.

It doesn't even remotely resemble the Indian vulture example above.

[FrankenMauser]

I don't think poisons would be legal. Poisons that kill the target animal inadvertently would kill other critters that would also eat the poisoned bait, like deer/turkeys etc. Plus any raptors or scavengers that would feed on the carcass. Not real smart on the farmer/ranchers part to use poison.

It has already been green-lighted by the FDA.

It isn't a poison in the typical sense of strychnine and arsenic.

As mentioned by Snyper, it's warfarin, a blood-thinning prescription drug. (With some places mentioning it possibly being combined with Sodium Nitrite.)

Though I am sure that there will be unintended consequence for non-target species, the claims are that the hogs are far more sensitive to warfarin than other species. As such, it is believed that the hogs will bleed to death internally with minimal risk to non-target species and scavengers.

As I said... I have my doubts. But those are the claims.

[FITASC]

They also claimed Agent Orange was harmless and that if you liked your doctor, you could keep your doctor....... Jes sayin"

[JWT]

I used Warfarin to control pack rats until the next door neighbor complained they were coming over to their water feature and dying there trying to get enough water. Poison is not the best way to go. Get more people to shoot the damned hogs.... Just be selective in the type hunter permitted on private land to mitigate liability. Sad that we make so darned many decisions based soley on fear of a law suit.

[Slamfire]

They also claimed Agent Orange was harmless . Jes sayin"

I also refused to go through the Millimeter wave scanner and the Backscatter machines in the airports. TSA had to hand wand me and hand pat, which upset them, but you know, there may be people twenty years from now coming down with cancers due to these machines. I don't want to be one of those people.

The "experts" selling these poisons and cancer machines are making obscene profits now. However, if their sales pitch turns out to be fiction, there is no penalty to them, you however, are going to be very sick.

Just remember, DDT is good for you!

[Double Naught Spy]

For instance, how long does it take for the poison to kill? How long before the hog becomes too weak to travel?

Well, it is expected to take 4-7 days from the start of poisoning for the hog to be dead, assuming that the hog feeds daily. That does NOT include the 3-6 weeks training time to teach the hogs how to use the feeders.

How far will they go before they become too week to travel. That sort of depends. According to the directions, you may find hogs around the feeders, but starting 4 days after adding the poison bait, you need to start searching for hogs across the area as the hogs are supposed to be BURIED or otherwise disposed of properly such that other animals cannot gain access to the carcass. Burial is suggested at 18" of coverage.

Here is the pdf.
https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem...6-20170103.pdf

One thing the PDF really does show is how labor intensive use of Kaput will be. This alone may be the reason for the downfall of using this bait...

SURVEILLANCE AND FOLLOW-UP:
Dead hogs may begin to appear in or near the treatment areas within 4 to 7
days after bait placement. Applicators must return to the treatment site within 4 days after the first bait placements were made, and at 2- to 4-day intervals thereafter, to inspect the site for evidence of dead or dying feral hogs and/or dead nontarget animals. All carcasses found must be disposed of properly. Carcasses may be buried on site in holes dug deeply enough that the entire carcass is at least 18 inches below the ground surface. Cover buried
carcasses up to the level of the surrounding ground. If burial is not practical (e.g., due to frozen or extremely hard ground) and other disposal methods are allowed by State and local authorities, carcasses may be disposed of by
other methods to ensure that carcasses are not accessible to scavengers. Continue to monitor the treatment area to collect and dispose of feral hogs and to search for non-target animals for at least two weeks after the removal of all bait from the hog feeders. Deaths of any animals other than feral hogs that appear to be the result of baiting with this product must be reported to State authorities.

Who is going to spend the time driving/walking around for hogs that may be dead and then regularly burying them?? Think of all the hog cemeteries that will crop up (pun, ha!) around the state!

Nobody is going to fully abide by the proper handling/use procedures for very long.

[burrhead]

Good Lord, they're talking about warfarin not cyanide as was used on coyotes in days gone by. Warfarin is NOT poison but a blood thinner. It is often prescribed by doctors in the form of Coumadin for those with heart disorders or people at risk for stroke.

Some of you may want to do a little research. I feel like I've stepped into a sewing circle full of snowflakes.

[Double Naught Spy]

Good Lord, they're talking about warfarin not cyanide as was used on coyotes in days gone by. Warfarin is NOT poison but a blood thinner. It is often prescribed by doctors in the form of Coumadin for those with heart disorders or people at risk for stroke.

Some of you may want to do a little research. I feel like I've stepped into a sewing circle full of snowflakes.

No burrhead, Warfarin IS a poison. Most anything is a poison when given in sufficient quantities. Warfarin, like cyanide, can be poisonous with extremely miniscule amounts introduced into the body. That it has a medical use is nice.

Cobra and other snake venoms hav medical uses.
arsenic
Foxglove
radiation
Wolfsbane
Hemlock
Nightshade
Ergot
Chemotherapy
pufferfish toxin
spider venom
toxins from various frogs and toads
Gila monster venom
...all these have medical uses, but are poisonous.

That Warfarin has a medical use does not mean it isn't a poison. Its most common use (by volume) is as rat poison. In fact, Warfarin first came into use in 1948 as rat poison. It wasn't in medical use until 1954.

Oh, and cyanide has medical uses as well... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide

Yep, if you just do a little research...here's your needle, thread, and some fabric.

[Jim Watson]

Australia is using Hog Gone which is sodium nitrite. They are moving away from, may already have dropped Warfarin, phosphorus, and sodium fluroacetate (1080, coyote poison.)
Swine don't have much of the enzyme that detoxifies nitrite so it is pretty rapidly lethal, couple of hours in the paper I read.
Little of it makes it into muscle tissue, there is more nitrite in bacon than there is in a poisoned pig's hams. A scavenger eating the stomach, contents and all, would be at more risk.

[burrhead]

Point taken, Double Naught. I guess what I really see is that we've been trying for decades in Texas to moderate the hog population and the current methods have failed. So now what?

I agree with you that few if any people will follow the guidelines but I believe poisoning the pigs with a somewhat environmentally benign ("bycatch" notwithstanding) substance should at least be tested. I see no negatives vis a vis water, soil, air.

What will feed on the "hot" hogs? Coyotes, feral cats, other hogs, stray dogs, vultures and raptors are what i can think of off the top of my head. With the notable exception of the birds, the other unintended animals is a win to me.

The current methods just aren't making a dent and I'm glad there's some thinking outside of the box.

EDIT: I posted the same time as Mr. Watson. Maybe there's a more appropriate substance but it's past time to try something new.

[Pathfinder45]

Of course it's poison. Many medicines, perhaps most medicines, are quite poisonous at some level of dosage. Even vitamins can be poisonous if they are overdone. It's called an overdose. If you don't think Warfarin could be dangerous for the purposes relevant to this topic, I offer the following link for your information: http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/warfarin.htm

For those of you that own dogs, here is an alarming excerpt from the above link:

The acute oral LD50 for dogs exposed to warfarin was 3 mg/kg/day for 5 days

That's not very much to kill your dog. Dogs will eat carcasses; but you already knew that.

The fact that it is useful medicinally, under carefully controlled circumstances, does not mean that it isn't dangerous. Pregnant Women should not be exposed to it as it is a known teratogen, i.e., it causes birth defects.

If this program is implemented, don't be in denial; there will be unintended consequences.

[FITASC]

Besides Warfarin, Fluoride is a rat poison placed in public drinking water and on folks teeth and in their toothpaste.........the debate about even that isn't over; let alone what stronger chemicals do. Argentina encourages hunters to come and slaughter as many doves as possible - the farmers do not pay for poisons, they get paid by hunters to come and shoot; young kids get tips and make money; local villages get the meat, a win-win all around. The farmers/ranchers in TX need to follow a similar scenario.

[Pathfinder45]

Well, I don't live in Texas, so I don't think I could possibly have a good grasp of the situation. But, perhaps something could be done to promote incentives to landowners allowing free pig hunting. Tax credits, maybe? Liability Waivers, perhaps? I don't know, but I think one of the best solutions to the problem is a lot of well-placed bullets. Good luck with the pig problem down there, and I hope y'all come up with some wisdom for it.

[Double Naught Spy]

What will feed on the "hot" hogs? Coyotes, feral cats, other hogs, stray dogs, vultures and raptors are what i can think of off the top of my head. With the notable exception of the birds, the other unintended animals is a win to me.

What will feed on hot hogs? Every mammalian and avian carnivore.

That there may be other "unintended animals" as you say means that the proclaimed controlled poisoning isn't in control. That is a real problem.

The current methods just aren't making a dent and I'm glad there's some thinking outside of the box.

Yeah, actually hunting/trapping/dogs do make a dent and make a big dent. One estimate from 2015 had 325,000 hogs killed by hunters/trappers/doggers. That is a LOT of hogs. The problem is that it isn't sufficient to control the population. Without hunting, the problem would be much worse.

Estimating hogs killed is probably more accurate than estimating how many hogs there are in Texas. As early as 2005, biologists for the state have said that there were about 2 million hogs in Texas and that number was later upgraded to 2.5 million around 2011 or 2012 which is interesting as Higginbothom from Texas A&M's Ag Extension office who has been studying hogs for a number of years says that the population is growing at roughly 20% per year despite the amount of hunting impacting the population. Estimates you see for the hog population today are in the 3-5 million range in most cases. So if you do the math of 20% growth per year since 2005 when there were 2 million hogs, we should have well over 14 million hogs in Texas right now.

So there is this disconnect between what the estimates are and how much the population is actually growing. Nobody is claiming that we have that many hogs in Texas right now, but if you do the math provided by the experts based on their population estimates, then that is how many we should have.

The whole population issue is terribly misunderstood. Sid Miller who approved the poison program said that there were 2 million hogs in Texas, a number that should be more than a decade out of date...which makes you wonder how well he understands what is going on...

[burrhead]

Yeah, actually hunting/trapping/dogs do make a dent and make a big dent. One estimate from 2015 had 325,000 hogs killed by hunters/trappers/doggers. That is a LOT of hogs. The problem is that it isn't sufficient to control the population.

That's my point; current methods aren't enough. Population stats ARE anecdotal, therefore worthless, but I think we'd agree there is a problem and I think it's growing. Some of that growth certainly comes from ranchers stocking to attract hunters. On MDLs, that could be controlled but won't be by the current TPW crew, if ever. Too much money.

I still hold my bottom line that pigs need to be moderated by any sound method and I think poisoning with some substance should at least be tested.

As to Mr. Miller, I'll just say I didn't vote for him.

[TXAZ]

Pathfinder, you don't have to live here to see the damage, although the pictures below don't do justice to what a few hogs can do in a few minutes to hours, but here are a few I found in the web:


Not many hogs probably did this in less than an hour

[Jim Watson]

Australia cannot call the pig population closer than "4 to 20 million." But they are still killing all they can.