Will a 12 Gauge Loaded with BB Shot Stop a Man Effectively?? - Page 6

Tarwater · February 6, 2009, 02:02 PM

Anecdotal stories have nothing to do with it. I'm an student xray tech and I have patients with birdshot wounds come through about 1-2 times a month, some of them self-inflicted suicide attempts. It looks gross because of all the little pellets but usually it's only a surface wound. They walk into the ER most of the time and they walk out when we're done. Am I saying you can't get lucky and stop someone with birdshot? Absolutely not, it's still dangerous stuff to get shot with. But most of the time it doesn't have enough penetration to do any real damage.

liquidspaceman · February 6, 2009, 02:06 PM

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=332457

Tarwater, here's another ER guy who is saying the opposite of what you are saying. If your goal is to stop the attack, then birdshot is fine. If your goal is to kill, then go ahead and load with buckshot. It seems like you guys just want to kill, not stop.

Here is what he has to say:

I swear this is the last time I post on one of these birdshot vs buckshot threads, that horse is just about pulp by now. I don't get my info from any website or gun mag, I guess I'm just not that savy. I get my evidence from over 15 years working in Level 1 ERs. Anyone who says that birdshot used at home defense ranges is anything less than lethal is smoking crack.

Now granted, I've never seen what birdshot does to ballistics gel or wet phone books, only human tissue, so maybe my evidence won't hold up on the internet. Not everyone I've seen hit with birdshot at close range has come in flatlined, but none has pressed on an attack. I've also seen more than a couple of people bring themselves in or picked up off site who were hit with one or 2 buckshot, probably by someone who just pointed and pulled.

Now me, I like 000 buck, but the wife can't tolerate the recoil. She's perfectly fine with a good load of #4 bird. The distance from her side of the bed to the bedroom door is 13 feet. We've mapped these things out, we have a plan. And a plan trumps internet gibberish anyday of the week.
Or maybe I just woke up in a bad mood.

cjw3cma · February 6, 2009, 02:07 PM

Why bother with BB's? If you are not prepared to kill the intruder, you shouldn't be using a shotgun to begin with - a taser will do.

My 870 Tactical is loaded with Centurion Multi-defense buckshot shells - a true "manstopper" - loaded with a single .650 size pellet along with six (6) #1 buckshot pellets, for a solid hit. Muzzle Velocity: 1,300.

liquidspaceman · February 6, 2009, 02:12 PM

Look, I have no problem with you guys using buckshot. Just admit that your goal is to KILL the intruder, not stop the attack. You admit that and I'm okay with your use of buckshot. Just admit you want to murder the guy and the argument is over.

I get tired of buckshot advocates talking about "lack of penetration" to vital organs and such. What you're really saying is that you want to blow the ever-living crap out of anybody in front of you. I mean, what other reason is there to load magnum sized buckshot loads?

You want to kill the guy in front of you. There is no other reason. Just remember this fellas. When you do eventually kill that guy in front of you, it's not going to be that glorious moment your'e imagining in your head. You're not going to have one foot on the attacker while your wife grabs your elbow.

No. Killing somebody is going to be a traumatic experience. And when you see some 15 year old kid laying dead in your living room with no weapon...believe me, you're not going to be on your high horse. Especially if the neighbor kid was some kid you knew your whole life and was just a petty thief looking to score some DVDs from you. You're going to know what it feels like to kill a man - any man and you're going to have flashbacks about it for the rest of your life.

You little armchair Rambos have no idea what you're setting yourself up for. All the stories you read on the internet of some little girl in Montana shooting 2 perps in her home...they are bullcrap and don't take into acct the insanity you bring upon your person when your intention is to kill.

liquidspaceman · February 6, 2009, 02:14 PM

Good luck CJW, I can't wait until you get to fulfill your Rambo fantasy of killing an intruder. I hope your family is okay that their papa is a homicidal sociopath deep down inside.

Tarwater · February 6, 2009, 02:14 PM

Don't mean to disrespect you dude, but maybe you should try some of that rubber buckshot stuff; it would probably suit your needs pretty well.

Bill DeShivs · February 6, 2009, 02:18 PM

Though his attitude leaves a little something to be desired, Liquidspaceman is basically correct about birdshot. I assume most people have not done much shotgun shooting. Sounds like you guys think birdshot is like shooting paintballs. IT'S DEADLY. Believe it. It's probably not deadly at 25 yards, but at under 5 yards birdshot will blow one big hole in whatever it hits. Buckshot penetrates better, and has longer range.

liquidspaceman · February 6, 2009, 02:19 PM

Yeah and maybe you should switch from magnum loads to M67 Fragmentation Grenades Tarwater. Why leave the perp any chance of walking out alive? What if there's more than one perp? Then you can really blow the **** out of them Rambo.

Tarwater · February 6, 2009, 02:22 PM

I don't actually own a shotgun, I keep a humble 9mm for my Rambo fantasies. Thanks for the advice though, I think I'll have a look at those frag grenades next time I'm at the sporting goods store.

liquidspaceman · February 6, 2009, 02:23 PM

Sorry for my attitude Bill, it just bothers me that there are people that actually have these fantasies of killing their intruders. A gun was created for self-defense and to stop these attacks. They weren't created so that people could blow the ever living crap out of things.

But that's the attitude people have. If somebody breaks into their home, they're not walking away alive. It's really disturbing. These guys with buckshots in their apartments with me living right next door. They're going to punch threw the wall and hit my 4 year old daughter with their Rambo tactics.

I don't think half these guys realize they are sociopaths to begin with. They talk about penetration to vital organs and all it reminds me of is serial killers who talk about their favorite way to kill their victims. This is a forum of guys who have seen Death Wish and Dirty Harry one too many times.

Glenn E. Meyer · February 6, 2009, 02:33 PM

It's done. No more insulting folks.

February 6, 2009, 02:07 PM	#128
cjw3cma Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2007 Location: Chiloquin, OR Posts: 217	Why bother with BB's? If you are not prepared to kill the intruder, you shouldn't be using a shotgun to begin with - a taser will do. My 870 Tactical is loaded with Centurion Multi-defense buckshot shells - a true "manstopper" - loaded with a single .650 size pellet along with six (6) #1 buckshot pellets, for a solid hit. Muzzle Velocity: 1,300. __________________ The Constitution shall never be construed … to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. – Samuel Adams

February 6, 2009, 02:12 PM	#129
liquidspaceman Junior Member Join Date: February 5, 2009 Posts: 9	Look, I have no problem with you guys using buckshot. Just admit that your goal is to KILL the intruder, not stop the attack. You admit that and I'm okay with your use of buckshot. Just admit you want to murder the guy and the argument is over. I get tired of buckshot advocates talking about "lack of penetration" to vital organs and such. What you're really saying is that you want to blow the ever-living crap out of anybody in front of you. I mean, what other reason is there to load magnum sized buckshot loads? You want to kill the guy in front of you. There is no other reason. Just remember this fellas. When you do eventually kill that guy in front of you, it's not going to be that glorious moment your'e imagining in your head. You're not going to have one foot on the attacker while your wife grabs your elbow. No. Killing somebody is going to be a traumatic experience. And when you see some 15 year old kid laying dead in your living room with no weapon...believe me, you're not going to be on your high horse. Especially if the neighbor kid was some kid you knew your whole life and was just a petty thief looking to score some DVDs from you. You're going to know what it feels like to kill a man - any man and you're going to have flashbacks about it for the rest of your life. You little armchair Rambos have no idea what you're setting yourself up for. All the stories you read on the internet of some little girl in Montana shooting 2 perps in her home...they are bullcrap and don't take into acct the insanity you bring upon your person when your intention is to kill. Last edited by liquidspaceman; February 6, 2009 at 02:28 PM.

February 6, 2009, 02:18 PM	#132
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,979	Though his attitude leaves a little something to be desired, Liquidspaceman is basically correct about birdshot. I assume most people have not done much shotgun shooting. Sounds like you guys think birdshot is like shooting paintballs. IT'S DEADLY. Believe it. It's probably not deadly at 25 yards, but at under 5 yards birdshot will blow one big hole in whatever it hits. Buckshot penetrates better, and has longer range. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

February 6, 2009, 02:33 PM	#136
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	It's done. No more insulting folks. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

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February 6, 2009, 02:02 PM	#126
Tarwater Member Join Date: October 6, 2006 Posts: 26	Anecdotal stories have nothing to do with it. I'm an student xray tech and I have patients with birdshot wounds come through about 1-2 times a month, some of them self-inflicted suicide attempts. It looks gross because of all the little pellets but usually it's only a surface wound. They walk into the ER most of the time and they walk out when we're done. Am I saying you can't get lucky and stop someone with birdshot? Absolutely not, it's still dangerous stuff to get shot with. But most of the time it doesn't have enough penetration to do any real damage.

February 6, 2009, 02:06 PM	#127
liquidspaceman Junior Member Join Date: February 5, 2009 Posts: 9	http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=332457 Tarwater, here's another ER guy who is saying the opposite of what you are saying. If your goal is to stop the attack, then birdshot is fine. If your goal is to kill, then go ahead and load with buckshot. It seems like you guys just want to kill, not stop. Here is what he has to say: I swear this is the last time I post on one of these birdshot vs buckshot threads, that horse is just about pulp by now. I don't get my info from any website or gun mag, I guess I'm just not that savy. I get my evidence from over 15 years working in Level 1 ERs. Anyone who says that birdshot used at home defense ranges is anything less than lethal is smoking crack. Now granted, I've never seen what birdshot does to ballistics gel or wet phone books, only human tissue, so maybe my evidence won't hold up on the internet. Not everyone I've seen hit with birdshot at close range has come in flatlined, but none has pressed on an attack. I've also seen more than a couple of people bring themselves in or picked up off site who were hit with one or 2 buckshot, probably by someone who just pointed and pulled. Now me, I like 000 buck, but the wife can't tolerate the recoil. She's perfectly fine with a good load of #4 bird. The distance from her side of the bed to the bedroom door is 13 feet. We've mapped these things out, we have a plan. And a plan trumps internet gibberish anyday of the week. Or maybe I just woke up in a bad mood.

February 6, 2009, 02:14 PM	#130
liquidspaceman Junior Member Join Date: February 5, 2009 Posts: 9	Good luck CJW, I can't wait until you get to fulfill your Rambo fantasy of killing an intruder. I hope your family is okay that their papa is a homicidal sociopath deep down inside.

February 6, 2009, 02:14 PM	#131
Tarwater Member Join Date: October 6, 2006 Posts: 26	Don't mean to disrespect you dude, but maybe you should try some of that rubber buckshot stuff; it would probably suit your needs pretty well.

February 6, 2009, 02:19 PM	#133
liquidspaceman Junior Member Join Date: February 5, 2009 Posts: 9	Yeah and maybe you should switch from magnum loads to M67 Fragmentation Grenades Tarwater. Why leave the perp any chance of walking out alive? What if there's more than one perp? Then you can really blow the **** out of them Rambo.

February 6, 2009, 02:22 PM	#134
Tarwater Member Join Date: October 6, 2006 Posts: 26	I don't actually own a shotgun, I keep a humble 9mm for my Rambo fantasies. Thanks for the advice though, I think I'll have a look at those frag grenades next time I'm at the sporting goods store.

February 6, 2009, 02:23 PM	#135
liquidspaceman Junior Member Join Date: February 5, 2009 Posts: 9	Sorry for my attitude Bill, it just bothers me that there are people that actually have these fantasies of killing their intruders. A gun was created for self-defense and to stop these attacks. They weren't created so that people could blow the ever living crap out of things. But that's the attitude people have. If somebody breaks into their home, they're not walking away alive. It's really disturbing. These guys with buckshots in their apartments with me living right next door. They're going to punch threw the wall and hit my 4 year old daughter with their Rambo tactics. I don't think half these guys realize they are sociopaths to begin with. They talk about penetration to vital organs and all it reminds me of is serial killers who talk about their favorite way to kill their victims. This is a forum of guys who have seen Death Wish and Dirty Harry one too many times.