Stock Refinish LC Smith

The Rattler · January 9, 2015, 12:11 PM

I inherited a Field Grade LC Smith 12 gauge made in 1946. I used it for bird hunting while in high school in the 60s. Now, I only use it 3 - 4 times a year shooting trap.

The varnish is wearing off the stock & I would like to refinish it. My main goal is to give the wood longevity because I have a son & grandson to pass it down to.

Although I am just a neophyte at this, it appears that an oil finish is better for longevity of the wood. Am I correct?

I have refinished one other stock with Boiled Linseed Oil & in the process of doing another. The BLO finish is nice but it is darker than I want the LC Smith to be. From research on the web, it appears that Tung Oil would not produce as dark color, but would also provide the benefit of longevity from an oil finish. Am I on the right track here?

A question I have is whether to use pure un-cut & un-chemically supplemented Tung Oil or one of the supplemented ones like Formby's low gloss Tung Oil. I read that pure Tung Oil produces a matte finish where the others are more glossy. But remembering that my primary goal is to prolong the life of the stock, wouldn't the pure Tung Oil be better? I read that pure Tung Oil takes a lot more time to soak in.

Getting the benefit of your experience will be greatly appreciated.

Doyle · January 9, 2015, 01:59 PM

The commercial "tung oil" products actually have very little real tung oil in them. Not that that is a bad thing. Real tung oil doesn't dry well and can be seriously gummy.

Personally, I think you are better off using one of the commercial gun finishes. Midway and Brownells both sell lots of excellent products.

**4V50 Gary** · January 9, 2015, 02:02 PM

Let's see some pictures of the wood stock.

**Unclenick** · January 9, 2015, 04:35 PM

The Rattler,

I would buy a copy of Understanding Wood Finishing by Bob Flexner. It's about how to select the best finishes for your purposes.

On page 84 of that edition I linked to is a table titled Guide to "Oil" Finishes. It rates both raw and boiled linseed oil protection as Poor. This is because of the ability of linseed oil to attract and hold moisture. It will take on a watermark in a heartbeat, and it seems to me we've had at least one member reporting a BLO stock finish ruined by rain exposure (white watermark streaks). This is a very traditional finish, but it's probably been around as long as tung nut oil (a.k.a, China wood oil), which dates back to B.C. in China, and certainly since long before modern understanding of finish chemistry.

Pure tung oil (as opposed to a mix of tung oil with a resin heated to form a varnish, or a mix of a finished varnish with tung oil) is also rated Poor for protection by Flexner, except when it has been built up with at least five or more coats with sanding between coats. Some people apply as many as a dozen coats, which takes patience, since each coat needs five days to a week to dry. Flexner comments that it looks dull and blotchy until you get five or six coats. It is one of the harder oil finishes to apply, and once applied, it is still thin and flexible enough that it doesn't provide the best protection, though some feel it looks best. It is still permeable to moisture over time, so it won't help with wood swelling in humidity, either.

The best protection, according to Flexner, is from polymerized oils. In this case "polymerized" does not mean plastic added. It just means the oil has been heated to 500° in an inert atmosphere to cause partial cross-linking (total cross-linking results in a solid, which is what happens when an oil dries) between some of the monomers and natural polymers in the oil to increase the average polymer molecular length. This also means the oxygen that causes oils to set and dry takes less time to work, as it has fewer remaining molecules to cross-link to the dried solid state. Those larger molecules are harder to break down, make a thicker finish, are more resistant to permeation by moisture and are mechanically are tougher than pure oil. Examples he gives are Southern and Wells brand Polymerized Tung Oil and Birchwood Casey's gun stock finishing product, Tru Oil.

I suspect the hardest and best protective finish is the one military armorers used to used for match conversions of M14's. This was a single-component epoxy finish. The dried the unfinished stock wood out, then submerged it in the finish inside a capped length of iron water pipe. The pipe had an air fitting on it, and they then applied 100 psi of air pressure to force the epoxy deep into the wood. The pressure was relieved, the stock removed and all excess finish wiped of, and then it was dried in a low heat oven for a week to force the epoxy to finish cross-linking. This finish essentially stopped humdity-related warping. It also made the stock rather heavier, but very tough and durable. At that point it was like epoxy glass, except with wood fibers instead of glass fibers in the structure.

There are likely a number of other kinds of things you could do to improve protection. Short of the epoxy, simple submersion in Thompson's WaterSeal prior to final finishing should help. I once reinforced a badly dusting old poured concrete basement floor by hitting it with WaterSeal, followed by a second coat that was 1/2 WaterSeal and 1/2 oil based floor paint I intended to apply, followed by a third coat that was just the paint itself. I intentionally left a portion of the concrete untreated and painted it only. That portion lost its paint to chipping fast, while the treated portion looked new until the day I sold that house.

Given the mineral spirits base of the original WaterSeal formula, I expect it could be used the same way with a wood finish like polymerized oil or Watco Danish Oil and the like, and would also improve the wood protection. You'd just want to have a heated drying box to get all the deep solvent to come out.

Finally, I'll echo what Doyle said, that many "tung oil finishes" use that name just because the final product resembles an actual tung oil finish. The name is about the final appearance and not the ingredients themselves. Indeed, this is true of many "oil finishes". Watco Danish Oil, for example, is just polyurethane. Totally synthetic. But it looks like a Danish oil finish. I've used it on a couple of Garands, actually, and got very good finishes from it. That's a case where I needed to use a product that was available with different stain colors so I could get a mix that made birch look like walnut in order to make parts match in appearance. In that instance I did not try the WaterSeal trick, as I was concerned I could not control the final color when mixing and matching finishing products. Especially not when I was waiting a long time for the solvent to permeate out.

Doyle · January 9, 2015, 05:32 PM

Although I wouldn't recommend this for an "heirloom quality" firearm (which is probably what your LC Smith is), I have had good luck using Minwax Tung Oil Finish (which is really just a wiping poly varnish). I've restored several old beater field guns using that. They come out looking acceptable and the finish seems to be holding up good. I normally put on 3 or 4 coats, waiting a few days between coats and then giving them a light sanding between just to knock down the nibs.

I've also used that successfully to reseal the barrel channel of rifles that I've floated.

Dixie Gunsmithing · January 9, 2015, 07:58 PM

My Smith looks to have about the same finish as Casey's Tru-Oil, but I think the pours are filled with a filler. I don't think it is French Red, but a dark brown paste or slurry type filler used. Filler is actually not too hard to apply, but you do have to follow the directions. The book by Flexner shows this, if I recall.

Smiths, or at least the ones from around 1930, don't have a shiny or glossy finish. They are similar to a velvety semi-gloss, which means the surface of the finish coat was dulled with 0000 steel wool, or something was mixed into the finish itself to dull it down. Mine is a Field, but was ordered with a Beaver-tail forearm, and has the banjo head release. I'll look at it tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure the pours of the wood are filled.

603Country · January 10, 2015, 09:12 AM

In my experience, Minwax Antique Oil will give a nice finish and is easy to do. It won't fill pores and though it's water resistant, it is not waterproof. I used it on a couple of 22 lever guns and I'm happy with the results. The tighter the grain on the stock, the better the end result will be.

I have used pure Tung Oil (from Woodcraft) on a variety of wooden objects (I'm a hobbiest woodworker) and I like the result from multiple coats. It will eventually fill pores of wood with tight grain and small pores.

The best so far is Waterlox Original in Satin. No water in it. That's just the name. A pro woodworker I know suggested it. I put on about 5 coats. It filled the pores and gave me a smooth beautiful finish. It seems scratch resistant once it's cured, which is a few weeks. It's expensive and isn't fast to use. Contains Tung Oil. I will use Waterlox Original again. You can get it in gloss.

The Waterlox finish replaced an oil finish I did some years ago. The oil finish looked pretty good, but the Waterlox finish is impressive.

Go to a Home Depot and buy this month's Fine Woodworking magazine. There's an article on wood finishes. It's worth the money, and Waterlox was not rated as number 1.

**Unclenick** · January 10, 2015, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doyle

I have had good luck using Minwax Tung Oil Finish (which is really just a wiping poly varnish).

I should have mentioned that Flexner said the wiping oil finishes are included among polymerized oil finishes. They dry faster and don't penetrate as far, as you noted, but are good protection.

603Country,

The Waterlox sounds good. Tung oil's main value is adding water proofing, which might be where that name came from. By itself it's too soft to be the best mechanical protection.

The Rattler · January 10, 2015, 01:56 PM

Thanks to all of you for your responses.

Since I do not plan to use this gun hunting and exposing it to the elements, I thought it better to use pure oil finishes to take the place of the natural oils that are likely gone now. This would be for the purpose of prolonging the life of the wood. It appears that my reasoning may have led me to a less than an ideal conclusion.

I am getting the recommendedbook & magazine.

Thanks again.

michaelcj · January 13, 2015, 09:25 AM

I use DemBart stock/checkering oil wet sanded for pore filling and then many very light Hand Rubbed [friction heat] coats. Beautiful results and a sturdy finish that I occasionally "refresh" with a bit of their wax.
Also easy to repair/refresh any small nicks or blemishes that may occur over the years.

Mike

603Country · January 13, 2015, 11:07 AM

I recently stumbled over another oil blend that might just work great on a gunstock. Some years ago, for a good friend, I made her a cutting board from Mesquite. The friend's sister just begged her for it, so I told the lady to give it to her sister and I'd make her a new and much prettier one. So she did. I went to the wood stacks and got some Cherry and made another cutting board and then debated what oil to put on it. I have Mineral Oil, Boiled Linseed Oil, Walnut Oil, and Tung Oil. And I had a new can of Watco Butcher Block Oil. I went with the new stuff, which seems to be an oil/varnish blend of some sort. Three coats of the Watco filled the pores, gave a nice shine, and appears to be very hard. It went on as rather thick, like the Waterlox, and flattened perfectly. Dried overnight. Ought to be plenty durable for a gunstock. I'd try it, but I don't have anything that needs a new finish.

I'll rate the Watco above the oils (tung, BLO, Walnut, Min spirits) and above Minwax Antique Oil. It would be faster to use than the Waterlox, though I won't say it would be as good or better.

T. O'Heir · January 13, 2015, 02:29 PM

The commercial "tung oil" products, like Minwax Tung Oil Finish and/or Tru-Oil(don't use the former), aren't pure tung oil. They're tung oil with drying additives.
Pure tung oil does dry, but it takes several days to get a good finish. When applied correctly, it gives a hard, waterproof, shiney finish that brings out the grain nicely.
Absolutely does not get brushed on and left to dry. It must be rubbed in, using thin coats and a new clean, lint free, cloth every day.
Tung oil, nor any other oil, doesn't change the colour of wood at all.

Dixie Gunsmithing · January 13, 2015, 04:02 PM

The best way of applying Tru-Oil, that I have found, is rubbing it in by hand, while wearing Nitrile surgeons gloves. It leaves a slick finish. Also, when you're done, pull off the gloves, and bin them. No messy hands to have to clean with mineral spirits.

When applying Tru-Oil, one can dip their gloved fingers in the oil, or pour out a small puddle, and start spreading it with the palm.

603Country · January 13, 2015, 04:17 PM

Pure Tung Oil looks good on tight grained Cherry, but not as good on Walnut if the wood has open grain. On its best day it won't look as good as the Waterlox or the Watco I mentioned above.

I think that what a person intends to do with the rifle has a lot to do with what finish he needs. Hand rubbed oil looks good but takes a lot of work to look great, and it's only water resistant. Won't build a film. Should be easy to repair minor scratches. Tung Oil would work for that. Wiping varnishes look good, but they generally aren't waterproof either. Both types will take a long time to fill the pores. As for the Waterlox, I used it in a Cherry side table that the wife wanted. Fantastic finish, and I got there much faster than with anything I had used before, though the curing time is measured in weeks. Filled the pores, flattened out well, and gave me a film finish. It remains to be seen if it's waterproof, and I haven't had to repair a scratch yet.

If somebody really wants fast and easy and tough, try Minwax Fast Drying Polyurethane. Home Depot and Lowes and Ace Hardware have the spray cans on the shelf. It'll look good, and you can get it in gloss, semigloss, and satin. Just don't overspray so much that it runs.

hoghunting · January 14, 2015, 04:59 PM

Quote:

The varnish is wearing off the stock & I would like to refinish it. My main goal is to give the wood longevity because I have a son & grandson to pass it down to

Quote:

Since I do not plan to use this gun hunting and exposing it to the elements, I thought it better to use pure oil finishes to take the place of the natural oils that are likely gone now. This would be for the purpose of prolonging the life of the wood. It appears that my reasoning may have led me to a less than an ideal conclusion

You might not plan on using the Smith for hunting, your son and grandson might have different plans.

michaelcj · January 14, 2015, 11:25 PM

Read this whole process couple of times before starting…

Should go without saying; remove the stock and forend from the action. remove butt pad/plate and the forend metal. Be carful with all the sanding/steel wooing steps around checkering and sculptural stock features to retain as crisp a line(s) as are there now.

After removing the old finish and sanding to 400 or 600grit, the first order of business is to Fill The Pores in the wood. Some may use commercial pore fillers but seldom do they look right or work that well.

Put a liberal coat of the oil you intend to use [like I said I prefer DemBart checkering oil] on the stock rub it in a bit and set the stock aside for a day or two to dry.

Next: using the oil as a lubricant,liberally, 600grit wrapped around an art eraser, and wet sand the stock working one area at a time, creating a slurry of oil and sanding dust.

Work the slurry into the pores with hand and fingers until you have covered the entire stock.

Don't wipe it down or off. Again set the stock aside for a few days to dry/cure.

Repeat the wet sanding procedure to remove the excess dried slurry. This time hand rub/wipe the stock removing all the excess slurry down to the surface of the wood. Again set aside for a day or two to cure.

Using 0000 steel wool go over the entire stock removing the cloudy areas where the slurry was insufficiently removed/ rubbed in. You should end up with an even satin finish over the whole stock.

Check the stock with indirect light to see if you have successfully filled al the pores and have an even pore free base. If not repeat the final wet sand/dry/ steel wool steps.

Once you have that even,filled base surface you can begin hand rubbing very light coats onto the stock. Just a few drops off a finger at a time and vigorously rubbing with palm and or fingers until you are creating some significant friction heat.

Let it dry a day between coats. Use the steel wool sparingly if you find some cloudy areas between coats. Repeat the hand rubbed coats as many times as you can stand.

Make sure that you avoid the checkering while you are Stripping/Sanding/Wet Sanding/Steel Wooling and Hand rubbing the rest of the stock.

Once the stock finish is done to your satisfaction:

Get your self a single line checkering tool {again DemBart make good ones and they are not expensive}. Carefully re-cut your checkering following the pattern that is already there. This will not only remove the old finish but will sharpen up the diamonds and pattern.

Once you have re-cut and dusted with a soft tooth brush, use the same oil to sparingly "flood" the checkering and remove the excess with a clean soft tooth brush. [any spill over onto the stock can just be rubbed in, but remember friction and heat are your friends. Repeat the checkering oiling 3 or 4 times with a day's drying in between.

Now let the stock cure for a week in a warm dry room.

Check your work for flaws/clouds and if all is good a few coats of paste wax vigorously buffed off with a soft cloth and……..

Bob's yer Uncle!!

Scratches or repairs can be done any time by just going back to the least heavy-handed step to cure the problem and moving forward.

A nice old L.C. deserves a good Hand Rubbed London Oil Finish.

This is a great ,traditional and sturdy finish for the wall or the field.

Besides it's good meditation time…Wax on,Wax Off Grasshopper.

Enjoy
Mike

Scorch · January 15, 2015, 03:17 AM

What I know from several decades as a stockmaker:
* Never use steel wool of any kind on a stock. It embeds in the wood and causes dark spots when it reacts with the tannin in the wood or just plain rusts.

* Watco Danish Oil is not waterproof or solvent-proof. It even says so on the can. Looks great, just not waterproof or solvent-proof. If you use it, you will need to top coat it with something that is.

* Mud sanding (wet sanding with finish) as outlined above is the fastest way to close up the pores and get a good smooth finish. Trying to mud sand a stock that does not have a dry coat of finish on it first turns it into a sticky mess.

* Polyurethane finishes do not mud sand well at all. If you want to use them, apply shellac to fill the grain and sand off the surface after it dries, then repeat until the desired fill is achieved. You can apply polyurethane finish as a top coat.

* Oil-based finishes (like TruOil or LinSpeed) are good for several reasons, and generally give good results.

* Stocks that have had a lot of lubricant oil soaked into them will be soft and are difficult to get back to acceptable hardness. They also accept stain unevenly. This is often the case with thinner areas of the stock around the receiver.

michaelcj · January 15, 2015, 09:12 AM

I agree… never use steel wool on Raw Wood.

Forty years of Stock Making/Finishing and Stringed instrument restoration/ building experience says not the same issue when used as I described.

One of the reasons I like the Dem/Bart oil is that it is less viscous than TruOil and works better in the wet sanding and hand rubbing. I can't remember LinSpeed but I may have used it as well sometime in the distant past.

M

tobnpr · January 16, 2015, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Although I am just a neophyte at this, it appears that an oil finish is better for longevity of the wood. Am I correct?

Nope. Wax is best, for long-term storage and preservation. In your case, since you intend on using it regularly, wax may not be the best choice since it will build up residues from firing.

Our historic national treasures are protected with wax, not oils of any kind.

There are obviously many opinions on how best to preserve the wood stocks of firearms, but I'll defer to the Senior Curator of our National Firearms Museum when it comes to collectibles...

http://www.nramuseum.org/media/94096...vationinfo.pdf

603Country · January 16, 2015, 02:40 PM

Wax may be fine for safe queen rifles and shotguns, but for real world use it offers very little protection from water. And hand rubbed oil finishes, when done very well, look very good. I've done a few. It's a lot of work. And, they are just water resistant, which isn't a real big problem.

Any good wiping varnish blend (Watco Danish Oil, Minwax Antique Oil, and such as that) will look real good unless you want the pores filled. But I know for a fact that you can wet sand with the Antique Oil and eventually fill the pores, so that is an option. I will say again that the Waterlox Original (satin) looks terrific, will fill pores, and will give you a film finish. Looks to me just like a great oil finish. The oil in Waterlox is Tung Oil.

If you choose to use the Waterlox, get all the old finish off and sand to 600 grit (400 would do). No need to raise the grain. Hang the stock from an eyelet screwed into the butt end of the stock (you can use the hole from the buttplate screw). Apply the Waterlox with a 1 inch wide foam brush. Apply a light coat, and be sure it's light enough not to run. No heavy coats. Use a flashlight on the surface to look for minor runs and tip them off with the foam brush. Once the Waterlox is on there, do not keep working the surface with the brush and do not wipe off with a rag. Let it dry for a day. It'll look not so good. Worry not. Sand very lightly with 400 or 600 grit to remove any dust nibs or whatever. Apply second coat same way, in that it needs to be a light coat, and look carefully for runs. Again, once dry you can sand it lightly. Be sure it's dry when you do that. About the third coat you'll see the pores starting to fill. Sand lightly between coats until the pores are filled and don't sand the final coat. Let the final coat dry for at least a week. Longer is better. Takes a few weeks to fully cure. Rub lightly and evenly with 0000 steel wool and a good wax (no silicone containing wax). If you hate or fear steel wool, use something else. I've read that using brown paper from grocery sacks will remove dust nibs from the final coat. I have not tried that.

If you prefer, do all this with the gloss Waterlox and then use pumice or rottenstone or whatever you prefer to degloss the shine. Again, wait till the finish is cured for best results.

Like I said earlier, I had used this finish on some Cherry things I had made for our home, and used it on the advice of a guy I know that makes and sells small side tables for $6000 each. I also made some side tables and they sure didn't look that good finish-wise, so I asked him what he used and hoped that it wasn't a trade secret. He told me it was Waterlox. So I bought some and used it. Wow! Looked great. Then one day I decided to redo the stock on my old Ruger 220 Swift. The oil finish I had once put on there was looking a little tired. I went on the internet to see what others were using these days. I found that some of the picky guys were actually using Waterlox. Heck, I had some of that, and had a little practice in using it. I mean, geez, it's a furniture finish, so I wasn't really convinced that would make it a great gunstock finish, but why not give it a try. Yep, looks great. No scratches yet. My pro woodworker buddy says that Waterlox is easy to repair if it's scratched. Hopefully I won't need to find out, but if he says so it must be so. Note that it isn't a quick process. A week for 5 coats and then 3 weeks to cure. Figure on a month. Longer is better.

Dixie Gunsmithing · January 16, 2015, 02:55 PM

AGI has a video on refinishing stocks. They use Gun Sav'r spray or pro-custom oil, which I think is close to Tru-Oil. Anyhow, they show everything from sanding, dent raising, bleaching, and how to apply the finish. I think they had a part on filler, and it may have been French Red, but have a similar in dark brown.

Excerpts of Gun Stock Refinishing: AGI 400:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg9Vbtgx4Bc

Brownell's has stock filler in Walnut or French Red by Herters.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...-prod7605.aspx

tobnpr · January 16, 2015, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Wax may be fine for safe queen rifles and shotguns, but for real world use it offers very little protection from water

From the piece linked above:

Quote:

Guns treated with wax fared better than oil-treated pieces in museums recently impacted by Hurricane Katrina

The article does state, as I mentioned, that wax is not for firearms that receive regular use.

603Country · January 16, 2015, 06:03 PM

I hear ya tobnr, but comparing the two after Katrina is a bit extreme. How ruined is ruined? How worthwhile can the less ruined one be? And then there's the "everyday use" thing again. I gather that the OP will be using the shotgun. I think the most useful choices are oil or varnish/oil for an old shotgun that's going to get some use.

Doyle · January 16, 2015, 06:24 PM

I've occasionally used wax on my firearms. It is an "extra" layer of protection that seems to work well.

Dixie Gunsmithing · January 16, 2015, 07:11 PM

Good ol' paste wax is good to keep a finished firearm up, even the metal. However, it is not for unfinished wood.

Wood has to be sealed, especially for hunters, as a stock can draw dampness, and cause it to split or twist. Also, it will keep any applied oil from softening the wood, especially if you seal the end grain where it meets the receiver, or any metal. It also helps, somewhat, with keeping the wood from marring or scratches, etc, since the gunstock finish hardens the outside of the stock when it dries. I can't see a wax doing this.

LC Smiths, being sidelocks, have a weaker stock in the receiver area than a boxlock. I always did seal the lock area inside, and any end grain, with applying finish on new stocks. If they're not oil soaked, or split, then this can be done when refinishing an old stock too.

January 9, 2015, 12:11 PM	#1
The Rattler Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2013 Posts: 111	Stock Refinish LC Smith I inherited a Field Grade LC Smith 12 gauge made in 1946. I used it for bird hunting while in high school in the 60s. Now, I only use it 3 - 4 times a year shooting trap. The varnish is wearing off the stock & I would like to refinish it. My main goal is to give the wood longevity because I have a son & grandson to pass it down to. Although I am just a neophyte at this, it appears that an oil finish is better for longevity of the wood. Am I correct? I have refinished one other stock with Boiled Linseed Oil & in the process of doing another. The BLO finish is nice but it is darker than I want the LC Smith to be. From research on the web, it appears that Tung Oil would not produce as dark color, but would also provide the benefit of longevity from an oil finish. Am I on the right track here? A question I have is whether to use pure un-cut & un-chemically supplemented Tung Oil or one of the supplemented ones like Formby's low gloss Tung Oil. I read that pure Tung Oil produces a matte finish where the others are more glossy. But remembering that my primary goal is to prolong the life of the stock, wouldn't the pure Tung Oil be better? I read that pure Tung Oil takes a lot more time to soak in. Getting the benefit of your experience will be greatly appreciated. Last edited by The Rattler; January 9, 2015 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Typo

January 9, 2015, 02:02 PM	#3
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Let's see some pictures of the wood stock. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

January 9, 2015, 04:35 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	The Rattler, I would buy a copy of Understanding Wood Finishing by Bob Flexner. It's about how to select the best finishes for your purposes. On page 84 of that edition I linked to is a table titled Guide to "Oil" Finishes. It rates both raw and boiled linseed oil protection as Poor. This is because of the ability of linseed oil to attract and hold moisture. It will take on a watermark in a heartbeat, and it seems to me we've had at least one member reporting a BLO stock finish ruined by rain exposure (white watermark streaks). This is a very traditional finish, but it's probably been around as long as tung nut oil (a.k.a, China wood oil), which dates back to B.C. in China, and certainly since long before modern understanding of finish chemistry. Pure tung oil (as opposed to a mix of tung oil with a resin heated to form a varnish, or a mix of a finished varnish with tung oil) is also rated Poor for protection by Flexner, except when it has been built up with at least five or more coats with sanding between coats. Some people apply as many as a dozen coats, which takes patience, since each coat needs five days to a week to dry. Flexner comments that it looks dull and blotchy until you get five or six coats. It is one of the harder oil finishes to apply, and once applied, it is still thin and flexible enough that it doesn't provide the best protection, though some feel it looks best. It is still permeable to moisture over time, so it won't help with wood swelling in humidity, either. The best protection, according to Flexner, is from polymerized oils. In this case "polymerized" does not mean plastic added. It just means the oil has been heated to 500° in an inert atmosphere to cause partial cross-linking (total cross-linking results in a solid, which is what happens when an oil dries) between some of the monomers and natural polymers in the oil to increase the average polymer molecular length. This also means the oxygen that causes oils to set and dry takes less time to work, as it has fewer remaining molecules to cross-link to the dried solid state. Those larger molecules are harder to break down, make a thicker finish, are more resistant to permeation by moisture and are mechanically are tougher than pure oil. Examples he gives are Southern and Wells brand Polymerized Tung Oil and Birchwood Casey's gun stock finishing product, Tru Oil. I suspect the hardest and best protective finish is the one military armorers used to used for match conversions of M14's. This was a single-component epoxy finish. The dried the unfinished stock wood out, then submerged it in the finish inside a capped length of iron water pipe. The pipe had an air fitting on it, and they then applied 100 psi of air pressure to force the epoxy deep into the wood. The pressure was relieved, the stock removed and all excess finish wiped of, and then it was dried in a low heat oven for a week to force the epoxy to finish cross-linking. This finish essentially stopped humdity-related warping. It also made the stock rather heavier, but very tough and durable. At that point it was like epoxy glass, except with wood fibers instead of glass fibers in the structure. There are likely a number of other kinds of things you could do to improve protection. Short of the epoxy, simple submersion in Thompson's WaterSeal prior to final finishing should help. I once reinforced a badly dusting old poured concrete basement floor by hitting it with WaterSeal, followed by a second coat that was 1/2 WaterSeal and 1/2 oil based floor paint I intended to apply, followed by a third coat that was just the paint itself. I intentionally left a portion of the concrete untreated and painted it only. That portion lost its paint to chipping fast, while the treated portion looked new until the day I sold that house. Given the mineral spirits base of the original WaterSeal formula, I expect it could be used the same way with a wood finish like polymerized oil or Watco Danish Oil and the like, and would also improve the wood protection. You'd just want to have a heated drying box to get all the deep solvent to come out. Finally, I'll echo what Doyle said, that many "tung oil finishes" use that name just because the final product resembles an actual tung oil finish. The name is about the final appearance and not the ingredients themselves. Indeed, this is true of many "oil finishes". Watco Danish Oil, for example, is just polyurethane. Totally synthetic. But it looks like a Danish oil finish. I've used it on a couple of Garands, actually, and got very good finishes from it. That's a case where I needed to use a product that was available with different stain colors so I could get a mix that made birch look like walnut in order to make parts match in appearance. In that instance I did not try the WaterSeal trick, as I was concerned I could not control the final color when mixing and matching finishing products. Especially not when I was waiting a long time for the solvent to permeate out. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; January 10, 2015 at 10:03 AM. Reason: typo fix

January 10, 2015, 01:56 PM	#9
The Rattler Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2013 Posts: 111	Stock Refinishing Thanks to all of you for your responses. Since I do not plan to use this gun hunting and exposing it to the elements, I thought it better to use pure oil finishes to take the place of the natural oils that are likely gone now. This would be for the purpose of prolonging the life of the wood. It appears that my reasoning may have led me to a less than an ideal conclusion. I am getting the recommendedbook & magazine. Thanks again.

January 13, 2015, 02:29 PM	#12
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	The commercial "tung oil" products, like Minwax Tung Oil Finish and/or Tru-Oil(don't use the former), aren't pure tung oil. They're tung oil with drying additives. Pure tung oil does dry, but it takes several days to get a good finish. When applied correctly, it gives a hard, waterproof, shiney finish that brings out the grain nicely. Absolutely does not get brushed on and left to dry. It must be rubbed in, using thin coats and a new clean, lint free, cloth every day. Tung oil, nor any other oil, doesn't change the colour of wood at all. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 9, 2015, 01:59 PM	#2
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	The commercial "tung oil" products actually have very little real tung oil in them. Not that that is a bad thing. Real tung oil doesn't dry well and can be seriously gummy. Personally, I think you are better off using one of the commercial gun finishes. Midway and Brownells both sell lots of excellent products.

January 9, 2015, 05:32 PM	#5
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	Although I wouldn't recommend this for an "heirloom quality" firearm (which is probably what your LC Smith is), I have had good luck using Minwax Tung Oil Finish (which is really just a wiping poly varnish). I've restored several old beater field guns using that. They come out looking acceptable and the finish seems to be holding up good. I normally put on 3 or 4 coats, waiting a few days between coats and then giving them a light sanding between just to knock down the nibs. I've also used that successfully to reseal the barrel channel of rifles that I've floated.

January 9, 2015, 07:58 PM	#6
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	My Smith looks to have about the same finish as Casey's Tru-Oil, but I think the pours are filled with a filler. I don't think it is French Red, but a dark brown paste or slurry type filler used. Filler is actually not too hard to apply, but you do have to follow the directions. The book by Flexner shows this, if I recall. Smiths, or at least the ones from around 1930, don't have a shiny or glossy finish. They are similar to a velvety semi-gloss, which means the surface of the finish coat was dulled with 0000 steel wool, or something was mixed into the finish itself to dull it down. Mine is a Field, but was ordered with a Beaver-tail forearm, and has the banjo head release. I'll look at it tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure the pours of the wood are filled.

January 10, 2015, 09:12 AM	#7
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	In my experience, Minwax Antique Oil will give a nice finish and is easy to do. It won't fill pores and though it's water resistant, it is not waterproof. I used it on a couple of 22 lever guns and I'm happy with the results. The tighter the grain on the stock, the better the end result will be. I have used pure Tung Oil (from Woodcraft) on a variety of wooden objects (I'm a hobbiest woodworker) and I like the result from multiple coats. It will eventually fill pores of wood with tight grain and small pores. The best so far is Waterlox Original in Satin. No water in it. That's just the name. A pro woodworker I know suggested it. I put on about 5 coats. It filled the pores and gave me a smooth beautiful finish. It seems scratch resistant once it's cured, which is a few weeks. It's expensive and isn't fast to use. Contains Tung Oil. I will use Waterlox Original again. You can get it in gloss. The Waterlox finish replaced an oil finish I did some years ago. The oil finish looked pretty good, but the Waterlox finish is impressive. Go to a Home Depot and buy this month's Fine Woodworking magazine. There's an article on wood finishes. It's worth the money, and Waterlox was not rated as number 1.

January 13, 2015, 09:25 AM	#10
michaelcj Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2011 Location: Lopez Island, WA Posts: 279	I use DemBart stock/checkering oil wet sanded for pore filling and then many very light Hand Rubbed [friction heat] coats. Beautiful results and a sturdy finish that I occasionally "refresh" with a bit of their wax. Also easy to repair/refresh any small nicks or blemishes that may occur over the years. Mike

January 13, 2015, 11:07 AM	#11
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	I recently stumbled over another oil blend that might just work great on a gunstock. Some years ago, for a good friend, I made her a cutting board from Mesquite. The friend's sister just begged her for it, so I told the lady to give it to her sister and I'd make her a new and much prettier one. So she did. I went to the wood stacks and got some Cherry and made another cutting board and then debated what oil to put on it. I have Mineral Oil, Boiled Linseed Oil, Walnut Oil, and Tung Oil. And I had a new can of Watco Butcher Block Oil. I went with the new stuff, which seems to be an oil/varnish blend of some sort. Three coats of the Watco filled the pores, gave a nice shine, and appears to be very hard. It went on as rather thick, like the Waterlox, and flattened perfectly. Dried overnight. Ought to be plenty durable for a gunstock. I'd try it, but I don't have anything that needs a new finish. I'll rate the Watco above the oils (tung, BLO, Walnut, Min spirits) and above Minwax Antique Oil. It would be faster to use than the Waterlox, though I won't say it would be as good or better.

January 13, 2015, 04:02 PM	#13
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	The best way of applying Tru-Oil, that I have found, is rubbing it in by hand, while wearing Nitrile surgeons gloves. It leaves a slick finish. Also, when you're done, pull off the gloves, and bin them. No messy hands to have to clean with mineral spirits. When applying Tru-Oil, one can dip their gloved fingers in the oil, or pour out a small puddle, and start spreading it with the palm.

January 13, 2015, 04:17 PM	#14
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Pure Tung Oil looks good on tight grained Cherry, but not as good on Walnut if the wood has open grain. On its best day it won't look as good as the Waterlox or the Watco I mentioned above. I think that what a person intends to do with the rifle has a lot to do with what finish he needs. Hand rubbed oil looks good but takes a lot of work to look great, and it's only water resistant. Won't build a film. Should be easy to repair minor scratches. Tung Oil would work for that. Wiping varnishes look good, but they generally aren't waterproof either. Both types will take a long time to fill the pores. As for the Waterlox, I used it in a Cherry side table that the wife wanted. Fantastic finish, and I got there much faster than with anything I had used before, though the curing time is measured in weeks. Filled the pores, flattened out well, and gave me a film finish. It remains to be seen if it's waterproof, and I haven't had to repair a scratch yet. If somebody really wants fast and easy and tough, try Minwax Fast Drying Polyurethane. Home Depot and Lowes and Ace Hardware have the spray cans on the shelf. It'll look good, and you can get it in gloss, semigloss, and satin. Just don't overspray so much that it runs.

January 14, 2015, 11:25 PM	#16
michaelcj Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2011 Location: Lopez Island, WA Posts: 279	Read this whole process couple of times before starting… Should go without saying; remove the stock and forend from the action. remove butt pad/plate and the forend metal. Be carful with all the sanding/steel wooing steps around checkering and sculptural stock features to retain as crisp a line(s) as are there now. After removing the old finish and sanding to 400 or 600grit, the first order of business is to Fill The Pores in the wood. Some may use commercial pore fillers but seldom do they look right or work that well. Put a liberal coat of the oil you intend to use [like I said I prefer DemBart checkering oil] on the stock rub it in a bit and set the stock aside for a day or two to dry. Next: using the oil as a lubricant,liberally, 600grit wrapped around an art eraser, and wet sand the stock working one area at a time, creating a slurry of oil and sanding dust. Work the slurry into the pores with hand and fingers until you have covered the entire stock. Don't wipe it down or off. Again set the stock aside for a few days to dry/cure. Repeat the wet sanding procedure to remove the excess dried slurry. This time hand rub/wipe the stock removing all the excess slurry down to the surface of the wood. Again set aside for a day or two to cure. Using 0000 steel wool go over the entire stock removing the cloudy areas where the slurry was insufficiently removed/ rubbed in. You should end up with an even satin finish over the whole stock. Check the stock with indirect light to see if you have successfully filled al the pores and have an even pore free base. If not repeat the final wet sand/dry/ steel wool steps. Once you have that even,filled base surface you can begin hand rubbing very light coats onto the stock. Just a few drops off a finger at a time and vigorously rubbing with palm and or fingers until you are creating some significant friction heat. Let it dry a day between coats. Use the steel wool sparingly if you find some cloudy areas between coats. Repeat the hand rubbed coats as many times as you can stand. Make sure that you avoid the checkering while you are Stripping/Sanding/Wet Sanding/Steel Wooling and Hand rubbing the rest of the stock. Once the stock finish is done to your satisfaction: Get your self a single line checkering tool {again DemBart make good ones and they are not expensive}. Carefully re-cut your checkering following the pattern that is already there. This will not only remove the old finish but will sharpen up the diamonds and pattern. Once you have re-cut and dusted with a soft tooth brush, use the same oil to sparingly "flood" the checkering and remove the excess with a clean soft tooth brush. [any spill over onto the stock can just be rubbed in, but remember friction and heat are your friends. Repeat the checkering oiling 3 or 4 times with a day's drying in between. Now let the stock cure for a week in a warm dry room. Check your work for flaws/clouds and if all is good a few coats of paste wax vigorously buffed off with a soft cloth and…….. Bob's yer Uncle!! Scratches or repairs can be done any time by just going back to the least heavy-handed step to cure the problem and moving forward. A nice old L.C. deserves a good Hand Rubbed London Oil Finish. This is a great ,traditional and sturdy finish for the wall or the field. Besides it's good meditation time…Wax on,Wax Off Grasshopper. Enjoy Mike Last edited by michaelcj; January 14, 2015 at 11:39 PM.

January 15, 2015, 03:17 AM	#17
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	What I know from several decades as a stockmaker: * Never use steel wool of any kind on a stock. It embeds in the wood and causes dark spots when it reacts with the tannin in the wood or just plain rusts. * Watco Danish Oil is not waterproof or solvent-proof. It even says so on the can. Looks great, just not waterproof or solvent-proof. If you use it, you will need to top coat it with something that is. * Mud sanding (wet sanding with finish) as outlined above is the fastest way to close up the pores and get a good smooth finish. Trying to mud sand a stock that does not have a dry coat of finish on it first turns it into a sticky mess. * Polyurethane finishes do not mud sand well at all. If you want to use them, apply shellac to fill the grain and sand off the surface after it dries, then repeat until the desired fill is achieved. You can apply polyurethane finish as a top coat. * Oil-based finishes (like TruOil or LinSpeed) are good for several reasons, and generally give good results. * Stocks that have had a lot of lubricant oil soaked into them will be soft and are difficult to get back to acceptable hardness. They also accept stain unevenly. This is often the case with thinner areas of the stock around the receiver. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

January 15, 2015, 09:12 AM	#18
michaelcj Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2011 Location: Lopez Island, WA Posts: 279	I agree… never use steel wool on Raw Wood. Forty years of Stock Making/Finishing and Stringed instrument restoration/ building experience says not the same issue when used as I described. One of the reasons I like the Dem/Bart oil is that it is less viscous than TruOil and works better in the wet sanding and hand rubbing. I can't remember LinSpeed but I may have used it as well sometime in the distant past. M

January 16, 2015, 02:40 PM	#20
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Wax may be fine for safe queen rifles and shotguns, but for real world use it offers very little protection from water. And hand rubbed oil finishes, when done very well, look very good. I've done a few. It's a lot of work. And, they are just water resistant, which isn't a real big problem. Any good wiping varnish blend (Watco Danish Oil, Minwax Antique Oil, and such as that) will look real good unless you want the pores filled. But I know for a fact that you can wet sand with the Antique Oil and eventually fill the pores, so that is an option. I will say again that the Waterlox Original (satin) looks terrific, will fill pores, and will give you a film finish. Looks to me just like a great oil finish. The oil in Waterlox is Tung Oil. If you choose to use the Waterlox, get all the old finish off and sand to 600 grit (400 would do). No need to raise the grain. Hang the stock from an eyelet screwed into the butt end of the stock (you can use the hole from the buttplate screw). Apply the Waterlox with a 1 inch wide foam brush. Apply a light coat, and be sure it's light enough not to run. No heavy coats. Use a flashlight on the surface to look for minor runs and tip them off with the foam brush. Once the Waterlox is on there, do not keep working the surface with the brush and do not wipe off with a rag. Let it dry for a day. It'll look not so good. Worry not. Sand very lightly with 400 or 600 grit to remove any dust nibs or whatever. Apply second coat same way, in that it needs to be a light coat, and look carefully for runs. Again, once dry you can sand it lightly. Be sure it's dry when you do that. About the third coat you'll see the pores starting to fill. Sand lightly between coats until the pores are filled and don't sand the final coat. Let the final coat dry for at least a week. Longer is better. Takes a few weeks to fully cure. Rub lightly and evenly with 0000 steel wool and a good wax (no silicone containing wax). If you hate or fear steel wool, use something else. I've read that using brown paper from grocery sacks will remove dust nibs from the final coat. I have not tried that. If you prefer, do all this with the gloss Waterlox and then use pumice or rottenstone or whatever you prefer to degloss the shine. Again, wait till the finish is cured for best results. Like I said earlier, I had used this finish on some Cherry things I had made for our home, and used it on the advice of a guy I know that makes and sells small side tables for $6000 each. I also made some side tables and they sure didn't look that good finish-wise, so I asked him what he used and hoped that it wasn't a trade secret. He told me it was Waterlox. So I bought some and used it. Wow! Looked great. Then one day I decided to redo the stock on my old Ruger 220 Swift. The oil finish I had once put on there was looking a little tired. I went on the internet to see what others were using these days. I found that some of the picky guys were actually using Waterlox. Heck, I had some of that, and had a little practice in using it. I mean, geez, it's a furniture finish, so I wasn't really convinced that would make it a great gunstock finish, but why not give it a try. Yep, looks great. No scratches yet. My pro woodworker buddy says that Waterlox is easy to repair if it's scratched. Hopefully I won't need to find out, but if he says so it must be so. Note that it isn't a quick process. A week for 5 coats and then 3 weeks to cure. Figure on a month. Longer is better.

January 16, 2015, 02:55 PM	#21
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	AGI has a video on refinishing stocks. They use Gun Sav'r spray or pro-custom oil, which I think is close to Tru-Oil. Anyhow, they show everything from sanding, dent raising, bleaching, and how to apply the finish. I think they had a part on filler, and it may have been French Red, but have a similar in dark brown. Excerpts of Gun Stock Refinishing: AGI 400: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg9Vbtgx4Bc Brownell's has stock filler in Walnut or French Red by Herters. http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...-prod7605.aspx Last edited by Dixie Gunsmithing; January 16, 2015 at 03:02 PM.

January 16, 2015, 06:03 PM	#23
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	I hear ya tobnr, but comparing the two after Katrina is a bit extreme. How ruined is ruined? How worthwhile can the less ruined one be? And then there's the "everyday use" thing again. I gather that the OP will be using the shotgun. I think the most useful choices are oil or varnish/oil for an old shotgun that's going to get some use.

January 16, 2015, 06:24 PM	#24
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	I've occasionally used wax on my firearms. It is an "extra" layer of protection that seems to work well.

January 16, 2015, 07:11 PM	#25
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Good ol' paste wax is good to keep a finished firearm up, even the metal. However, it is not for unfinished wood. Wood has to be sealed, especially for hunters, as a stock can draw dampness, and cause it to split or twist. Also, it will keep any applied oil from softening the wood, especially if you seal the end grain where it meets the receiver, or any metal. It also helps, somewhat, with keeping the wood from marring or scratches, etc, since the gunstock finish hardens the outside of the stock when it dries. I can't see a wax doing this. LC Smiths, being sidelocks, have a weaker stock in the receiver area than a boxlock. I always did seal the lock area inside, and any end grain, with applying finish on new stocks. If they're not oil soaked, or split, then this can be done when refinishing an old stock too.