The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 19, 2018, 03:53 PM   #76
chadio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2011
Posts: 753
What would it take?

Two rifles, new, but already broke in and reliability proven...

a) Springfield M1A Scout Squad, in walnut

b) SIG Sauer MPX SBR

... maybe ... but it would still be difficult to give up an LMT CQB 16, which may or may not be in my safe
__________________
Ex - Navy, Persian Gulf Veteran. Loved shooting the M14, 1911, M60, M2
chadio is offline  
Old May 19, 2018, 03:58 PM   #77
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 6,669
I think we have reached the pentacle of design for semiautomatic rifles firing cased ammunition.

They are all doing the same thing, just look different.
rickyrick is online now  
Old May 19, 2018, 05:24 PM   #78
stonewall50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 603
What would it take to abandon your AR15?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9x19 View Post
Show me this "superior rifle design" first, then I'll decide.

For me, the AUG wasn't it, neither was the Daewoo or Valmet, nor is the SCAR, nor the Tavor.

I'm guessing after this, you'll head over to the SA handguns forum and ask what would make folks abandon their 1911s?


Anyone who is still carrying a 1911 for concealed carry is kidding themselves. And they probably know it. Limited round count. Safety on hammer back? Single action only? Yea. The 1911’was great and some people still hang on to that myth. Same as revolvers. But times are a changing and that was the point of the thread.

The fact that some of the AR fanboys here can’t conceive of a world where the AR is no longer the top dog is hilarious. That it isn’t possible for another rifle to have features and functions and designs that replace it as the end all be all of semi auto rifles. I swear. Sometimes it is hard to have a discussion in this forum because some people are too damn sensitive about the topic. This is a safe space where gun control moonbats don’t lurk behind every bush. There is no Nancy Pelosi hiding in the bushes to take the AR. Lol.

So riddle me this. What features would you have to see on a rifle to make it a superior choice to the AR? Does that help?

Ps

If this sounds like I’m being a jerk. I’m not. I am on painkillers and steroids from a back injection. So that probably doesn’t help lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stonewall50 is offline  
Old May 19, 2018, 05:29 PM   #79
chadio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2011
Posts: 753
stonewall50 - ok, at least you could share some of that goody whopper medication
__________________
Ex - Navy, Persian Gulf Veteran. Loved shooting the M14, 1911, M60, M2
chadio is offline  
Old May 19, 2018, 05:31 PM   #80
stonewall50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 603
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick View Post
I think we have reached the pentacle of design for semiautomatic rifles firing cased ammunition.

They are all doing the same thing, just look different.


Well slightly. It seems the next step will be around bullpups, accuracy, and reliability. Length, preservation of ballistic performance in shorter packages, accuracy at longer ranges, ease of use in a variety of situations, and so on.

Personally? The first rifle that is as much a Barbie doll rifle as the AR in customs and parts, but that also is faster and easier to takedown, clean, sight in, and basically just do what the AR can faster and cheaper and easier and perform on a more consistent basis. Which is a TALL order. For now.
stonewall50 is offline  
Old May 19, 2018, 05:32 PM   #81
stonewall50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 603
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadio View Post
stonewall50 - ok, at least you could share some of that goody whopper medication


I’m flushing it as soon as I don’t need it. I detest medication. Im a martial artist and a concealed carrier who rarely drinks. I like to have my wits about me. Lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stonewall50 is offline  
Old May 19, 2018, 11:28 PM   #82
rc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 712
Don't have an AR, don't like the AR. I would like to see an accurate, economical sporting type 223/556 like the BAR that doesn't sell for over $1,000. The AR is not something I need. But I have no complaint of people owning one.
rc is offline  
Old May 20, 2018, 02:16 AM   #83
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 5,705
Accuracy is an interesting term.There is bench rest,or equivalent supported positions.

I do not doubt a bullpup platform can be accurate under that circumstance.

But to interact with the human body,prone,sitting,kneeling,standing,can someone direct me to a source of match scores where a AUG,TABOR,or other bullpup semi auto was used to place among the winners? I would find that interesting.

I'll ask it another way.Side by side, shooting offhand at clay pigeons or the equivalent bullseye(less mess) at 100 yds, same shooter,how will an AUG do against an AR with an 18 in Daniel Defense S2W barrel(which is just "OK" in the accuracy dept. Its forged chrome lined about $250),a free float railed forend,an ACOG,and a Gissele "enhanced" moderate trigger. That's a moderate priced AR build.

I admit I've never fired an AUG. I just can't imagine settling in to the same reasonably steady natural point of aim position with one.

Just as ,while I do not dispute that a 8 in bbl AR SBR can be bench rest accurate, I think its easier to shoot a 16 to 20 inch barreled AR accurately from unsupported positions.

Don't get me wrong,under true combat conditions,carrying a bunch of ruck,etc
an AUG might be handy.

But that's not how I use my AR.

I'm with rickyrick . From about 1963 till now,the AR has had about 55 yrs to evolve.Its been pretty well refined,and it can be outfitted for different applications.

The human body and the basics of marksmanship have not changed.

There could be a breakthrough in manufacturing and/or materials.

More likely,there could be a breakthrough in ammunition technology.

Those could be game changers. I suppose there could be a breakthrough in the role of infantry rifleman.

But until and unless those break throughs occur,I can't see the cost benefit of a change in platform till I see it. For me,its not bullpup.

The bullpup is not a new concept.It has just faced decades of "No,thankyou"
HiBC is offline  
Old May 20, 2018, 02:22 AM   #84
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 5,705
zukiphile

The Ruger Precision Rifle and the Tubbs are pretty much a manual bolt AR.

IMO,the Ruger is interesting
HiBC is offline  
Old May 20, 2018, 05:02 AM   #85
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 4,434
If I had my own AR manufacturing concern I would put some R&D into a couple of areas for improvement;

1) seek a way for a more direct cartridge feed that reduces angle of the cartridge on feed from magazine.
2) seek a way to drop the buffer tube (cheek meld) a bit below the centerline of the bore.

That's just me, though.
__________________
I screw things up--so you don't have to.
stagpanther is offline  
Old May 20, 2018, 07:43 AM   #86
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 3,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by hibc
The Ruger Precision Rifle and the Tubbs are pretty much a manual bolt AR.

IMO,the Ruger is interesting
I agree that they are both interesting and each borrows some general form from the AR, but each is really its own animal. Neither uses an AR lower or barrel. I think the Tubb might accommodate an AR pistol grip, but otherwise would have no parts in common.
zukiphile is offline  
Old Yesterday, 05:18 PM   #87
Ignition Override
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2008
Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy
Posts: 2,324
The solid character of the all-matching Hungarian AMD-65. Only Hungarians with "SA 2000 M" underneath the receiver have the original Hun. barrel, receiver, bolt etc, all of which are manufactured with mil-grade steel.

Traded my only AR, which was 100% reliable (plus cash) soon after the election for it.
I liked the S&W M&P II, but already having the 'AK' bug, ARs just didn't "grow on me". I had only bought the S&W to give the general type a chance.

A gun question deserves a direct, straight answer.

Last edited by Ignition Override; Yesterday at 05:24 PM.
Ignition Override is offline  
Old Yesterday, 07:17 PM   #88
marine6680
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2012
Location: Parker, CO
Posts: 4,347
Quote:
I’m flushing it as soon as I don’t need it. I detest medication.
Flushing meds is bad... Give them to the Dr office.


And I'm not sure having the buffer tube be below the bore lone would be a good thing overall. It may fix one thing, but make problems elsewhere.
marine6680 is online now  
Old Yesterday, 07:28 PM   #89
Model12Win
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 5,357
I don't have one! I think one of my shotguns would handle anything an AR could.
Model12Win is offline  
Old Yesterday, 09:09 PM   #90
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 4,434
Quote:
And I'm not sure having the buffer tube be below the bore lone would be a good thing overall. It may fix one thing, but make problems elsewhere.
Of course the issue of cycling the carrier would be a big problem--but getting the point of where the cheek weld was a bit lower might help.
__________________
I screw things up--so you don't have to.
stagpanther is offline  
Old Yesterday, 09:24 PM   #91
ttarp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2013
Posts: 802
What would it take? Just about any other contemporary or modern design to be placed in front of me.

The AR is great, has a lot of good strong points, but the only reason newer and better rifles haven't overtaken it in popularity/use, is because of how cheap the AR can be sold. And to a much lesser degree, weight. Discussions about AR vs x rifle almost always end up saying the x rifle doesn't offer enough improvements to justify the cost.

Quote:
I admit I've never fired an AUG. I just can't imagine settling in to the same reasonably steady natural point of aim position with one.
Its much more natural than you'd think. Of course, if you're trying to overcome decades of training in one or two range sessions, you will be disappointed.
ttarp is offline  
Old Yesterday, 09:51 PM   #92
CalmerThanYou
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2017
Posts: 270
The AR is such a convertible firearm it is tough to think what could "replace" it.
I like some of the newish tweaks like integral suppression, and more new ammunition development for the platform.
CalmerThanYou is offline  
Old Today, 12:49 AM   #93
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 6,290
not all that much

I've got no attachment to the AR. Been around long enough to remember when hardly anyone had one, and most folks still despised it. When I finally started shooting one in 1990, I still did not care for it, but I was being paid to do so, and the AR was far superior to a patrol shotgun.

I was astounded at the number of small parts in the platform, and how easily the rifle could be taken out of service during a field strip by the loss of the firing pin retaining pin, or any of the small extractor parts (I hear the Marine Corps forbids removing the extractor from the bolt?). I was surprised too at the number of small springs and detent pins used on the platform as well, retaining the take down pins and having a direct bearing on operation of the safety/selector.

I finally bought an AR carbine of my own in about 2010, as bamaboy and I were dabbling in 3-Gun and it was the rifle of choice for the sport. Still have it, but shoot it very little. I see the .223 cartridge, most commonly found, as too light for deer/hogs where there are better/wider choices in traditional sporting rifles. The .223 is a good varminter, but my two bolt rifles so chambered achieve all I want from the cartridge in that role.

Will I sell/"abandon" the AR. Of course not. But I won't be buying another either.
bamaranger is offline  
Old Today, 08:37 PM   #94
stonewall50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 603
Quote:
Originally Posted by Model12Win View Post
I don't have one! I think one of my shotguns would handle anything an AR could.


Inside of 150 yards...maybe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stonewall50 is offline  
Old Today, 08:42 PM   #95
stonewall50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 603
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmerThanYou View Post
The AR is such a convertible firearm it is tough to think what could "replace" it.
I like some of the newish tweaks like integral suppression, and more new ammunition development for the platform.

I think any firearm can be made to the same level of “convertible.” Rails? Caliber? Length of pull? Accessories? I think pretty much any modern design can do the same thing. Just a matter of stock customization.

And not to bring up a toy as an example of this: but look at airsoft guns as an example of that. In the age of 3D printing and plastics?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stonewall50 is offline  
Old Today, 08:44 PM   #96
stonewall50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 603
Quote:
Originally Posted by bamaranger View Post
I've got no attachment to the AR. Been around long enough to remember when hardly anyone had one, and most folks still despised it. When I finally started shooting one in 1990, I still did not care for it, but I was being paid to do so, and the AR was far superior to a patrol shotgun.



I was astounded at the number of small parts in the platform, and how easily the rifle could be taken out of service during a field strip by the loss of the firing pin retaining pin, or any of the small extractor parts (I hear the Marine Corps forbids removing the extractor from the bolt?). I was surprised too at the number of small springs and detent pins used on the platform as well, retaining the take down pins and having a direct bearing on operation of the safety/selector.



I finally bought an AR carbine of my own in about 2010, as bamaboy and I were dabbling in 3-Gun and it was the rifle of choice for the sport. Still have it, but shoot it very little. I see the .223 cartridge, most commonly found, as too light for deer/hogs where there are better/wider choices in traditional sporting rifles. The .223 is a good varminter, but my two bolt rifles so chambered achieve all I want from the cartridge in that role.



Will I sell/"abandon" the AR. Of course not. But I won't be buying another either.


It sounds to me like you would. Not necessarily “abandon” in the sense of get rid of it. But have something in mind that is far superior for you and replaces the AR as a semi auto rifle idea of perfection lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stonewall50 is offline  
Old Today, 09:01 PM   #97
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,384
The other thing to consider is the AR platform handles a bunch of different rounds. None are nearly as popular as the .223 , which is still highly a effective anti-personnel round. The 6.8 SPC and .300 Blackout are gaining some traction though. The small diameter allows for high ammo capacity and the light weight allows for a ton of ammo to be carried. I looked at the AR-10, but .308 is a lot heavier and bulkier.

As for new platforms, the bullpup design of the style makes the gun a lot more compact while maintaining the same barrel length. I personally find the AUG to be uglier than sin.
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08369 seconds with 9 queries