CAS Knockdowns?

[ZVP]

I've read several places recently in "All About Cowboy Action Shooting" by Ron Harris, that the standard Knockdown Target for CAS is weighted to be knocked down with a standard .38Spl 158gr RN.
i'm just wondering how the game is scored?
I worked out several .38 Sp loads including WW CAS Factory Load which makes approx 250FPE. Some Factory 158GR RN Factory Loads produce a bit less but I guess they will still "down" the steel Plates.
Now my question is what if you are shooting a Navy Model C&B Revolver? It doesn't make near the energy of the Winchester load. WIll a .36 C&B still knock one down or just "ring" it?
The book didn't say if a good shot with C&B was a knock-over or not.
When you go up to .44 Cal Lead balls from a Colt Army or Remington, you really make power and easily fit the FTLB category and surpass it!
I have both .36Cal and .44 Cal revolvers, shot them a lot, and the power levels are definitely different!
I'm really intrested in the Sport but Disability's preclude me from competing. It doesn't squash my enthusasium though!
The more "real" you make it, the better it is!
Our Sportsman's Club has a fine range and many members that take it all very seriously, with gear, guns and the extras like Money!
The historical accuracy is very intresting to me. How do you decide on an era to portray? Are there any easier or harder ones to develop characters for?
ZVP

[Fingers McGee]

I regularly shoot at a couple of clubs that have pistol knockdowns. My 1861 Navies using a 22 gr charge & a .380 roundball have always managed to tip the plates over.

I haven't shot a State, Regional, or National match that had pistol knockdowns in a long time.

[Jbar4Ranch]

I've had problems knocking down plates with .36 cal 1851's at a couple ranges, but then, a .36 cal round ball weighs only half what the .38 bullet does. (Well, close enough - 80 grains vs 158 grains) Even so, folks shooting 125 grain .38's seem to take them down just fine.

[B.L.E.]

At the clubs where I have shot, they didn't really use that many knock down targets, mostly non-knockdown steel targets for pistol and rifle. The knockdowns were mostly reserved for the shotgun.

The problem with knockdowns is having to reset them, usually done with a line but if the line breaks for any reason, they have to call a "downrange" and shut down the whole range while someone goes downrange to fix it, unless each stage is in separate walled off shooting cell.

[Crunchy Frog]

Pistol KDs are used infrequently in my area and when present they are designed to fall to a light .38 Special round since that is what most of us shoot.

If you put a priority on historical accuracy you might want to look for an NCOWS club.

Don't let a disability keep you from joining the fun. Most clubs will find a way to accommodate shooters with disabilities.

[B.L.E.]

Another reason you don't see that many KD targets is cost. Depending on the scenario, you need 5 to 10 pistol and around 10 rifle KD targets at each of the usually eight stages and you do the math.
With non-KD targets, you can shoot each target more than once so you don't need a separate target for each shot.

I personally would like to see nothing but KD targets because it makes scoring less subjective but reality makes it unfeasible except for really rich clubs or really small one-posse shoots where the same shooting cell can be reconfigured to a different scenario for the next stage.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The SASS Shooter's Handbook has two specific sentences regarding knock down pistol targets.

'Although the .32 caliber revolvers and .36 caliber cap and ball revolvers are legal, they may not be powerful enough to handle all reactive targets.'

'To the extent possible, reactive targets are set to fall when squarely hit with no more than a standard .38 Special 158 gr. factory load.'

Now let's talk about knock down targets being 'set to fall when hit squarely etc.....

Knock down targets are not precision pieces of equipment. They are generally a steel plate on a pivot, and the adjusting mechanism is usually a simple threaded rod that keeps the plate at an angle so that it is almost off balance and will not need much of a shove to fall over. Usually a simple nut keeps the threaded rod locked in position. The entire contraption is usually spiked to the ground so it does not shift.

But they simply are not precision pieces of equipment. What often happens as the day wears on is multiple hits causes the base to shift a bit, even though they are spiked in place. So the critical angle needed to keep it ready to fall can shift as the match progresses. When the match director sets up the match, they may or may not take a couple of shots at the knockdowns to make sure they are set correctly. No matter what, as the day progresses, nobody comes by and 'calibrates' the knockdown to make sure it is still knocked over by the same load that did the job before the match started. Just doesn't happen. So if you are shooting light loads, they may or may not knock over a pistol knockdown.

Many shooters who shoot light loads keep some slightly stouter loads on hand specifically for knockdowns. The other trick is to try to hit the knock down as high as possible. If you hit it low with a light load, it may not go over. Hitting it near the top with a light load increases the leverage and makes it more likely to go down.

Pistol knockdowns are enough of a problem that we seldom shoot them in my neck of the woods. Shotgun knockdowns are very common, but pistol or rifle knockdowns are pretty rare.

We do have one club that has a rack of 5 knockdowns that is very cool. There are 5 knockdowns on the rack, with the biggest in front and the smallest at the rear. Every one you knock down reveals the next smaller one behind it. Pretty simple with a rifle, but it can be very challenging with a pistol to knock down all five. Usually when this rack is used there will be a makeup target next to the rack. You use both pistols. If you don't knock them all down with 5 shots, you can keep shooting with the other pistol until you knock them all down. Once all 5 targets are down you dump all your remaining rounds on the dump target. Any knockdowns still standing after ten rounds are misses.

Lot's of fun, and I'm sure the rack was very expensive.

[Hellgate]

It is a rarity around here to have pistol knockdowns. "Back in the day" (early 1990s) when I started out just about everything was a knockdown where the target slid down the stand if hit right. I started out shooting in the "modern" category with a Ruger Blackhawk and a 36cal '61 Navy. It didn't take me long to buy a LEE 130gr conical mold for the 36. The 130gr slug had more thump for the fallers. Later I got 44 cal '51 "Navies" to have the best of both worlds: the feel/balance of a Navy with the punch of the Army. They are still my "serious match" go to guns (un-modded except for filling in the safety notches on the hammer face). I haven't felt the need to use the 200gr 44 conicals. The 44 RB knocks anything down a 38SPL will.

As for what era to portray, I like a little variety. On a weekend I might be Confederate on Saturday then see which way the war is going (and the food) and switch to Union on Sunday. The next match I might be Montana vigilante (1860s) or "fighting Amish" w/bib overalls and an Amish straw hat. Sometimes I am a Mexican peon when the weather is real hot. Otherwise I like to look like anything seen on a Charlie Russell canvas. I shoot BP 90% of the time and C&B 80% of the time. No one gets too rigid about how authentic you look or what guns you use as long as they are SASS compliant with your category.

[ZVP]

OK that all wxplains a lot, pistol KD's really arent used much anymore and scoring solid hits with low powered BP revolvers can be perplexing to the scorekeeper!
Thanks guys for explaining all this.
From the books I have and Magazine articles, they all must be dated and their info misleading.
So current Revolver competitions don't use that many reactive targets at all but Shotguns do. Makes sense because of the light .38 loads in use by some shooters. Why you'd need a light .38 is beyond me because in a S/A revolver the cylinder and barrel are so thick and much heavier, that they soak ,38 recoil up. My New Model Vaquero sure does!
Little by little I am getting a grasp on todays type competitions thanks to you folks!
ZVP

[B.L.E.]

Reactive targets are used for shotguns mostly because it's too easy for scorers to call a miss a hit when shooting at non-reactive targets with a shotgun. Pistols and rifles make a distinct bang-clang sound when the target is hit.

[Hawg]

Pistols and rifles make a distinct bang-clang sound when the target is hit.

Or poof............................ting.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

since the OP has gotten good advice the only thing I can add...

( flame on suit installed )

I love the look / action of a knockdown, I but I honestly don't like to shoot them anymore...

the club I compete at only uses them for the shotguns, but by design, the knockdown throws lead in the air... getting hit with shot from the shotguns hurts enough... I think I'd refuse to shoot a course that had rifle or pistol knockdowns, as I have no interest in getting hit with bullets

I have good copies of our local clubs steel targets on my personal range, & by design, they have a nice ring when struck, & angle the bullets to the ground... even though I have the fabrication available to duplicate the knockdown on my personal range, I choose to use another method... on my practice range for shotgun, I use a large tin can ( #10 or paint can ) & place it in a painted square on the ground... the shot must knock the can fully out of the square... using this practice method, I've never failed to knock down one of the clubs targets in the last several years, so it must be good enough...

as far as using the C&B on knockdowns, if they're set too tough for the C&B, make sure you're taking full advantage of your round's energy, & strike the target as close to the top edge as you can consistently hit...

... & go ahead & shoot... I'm pretty healthy, & not too old, compared to the other shooters, but I choose to shoot for fun, rather than against any of the other shooters... I keep a spread sheet & try to improve my times & my percentage of clean matches... in essence I only compete against myself... I shoot 45 Colt loads, about mid way up the power range, & a rifle rather than a carbine, neither revolver or lever gun slicked up or short stroked, & a vintage double barrel hammer gun, a little longer than coach length... I usually dress up enough to run the classic cowboy class, though when my 51 navies get converted to cartridge guns, in 38 Long Colt, I think I'll have to run another class, as I think I'd have to have a 44-40 or 45 Colt to stay in classic cowboy...

I have a nice pair of Ruger 32 mags, & could play the gamer game ( I'm too slow anyway ) but choose to keep it "more real"

[Driftwood Johnson]

The historical accuracy is very intresting to me. How do you decide on an era to portray? Are there any easier or harder ones to develop characters for?

Frankly, very few CAS shooters pay much attention to that. Most choose a category based on the guns or type of powder they choose to shoot. If they are shooting in one of the 'costume categories' such as Classic Cowboy, they will wear the required stuff for the category. But other than that, very few develop a 'character'. Most just show up to shoot, and don't pay much attention to the historical aspect. Most do not develop a 'biography' about who their 'character' is supposed to be, either real or imagined. After all, it is really just a fantasy sport, shooting a timed competition using firearms typical of the Old West.

[maillemaker]

Shoot a Walker. Knock-down becomes knock-into-next-county.

Steve

[g.willikers]

If it's for cowboy matches, wouldn't it be hard to keep one's pants up carrying two Walkers?

[Hellgate]

I shot several matches with a brace of Walkers. The most fun is is not having your pants fall down but setting cardboard props & dummies on fire.

[maillemaker]

If it's for cowboy matches, wouldn't it be hard to keep one's pants up carrying two Walkers?

A real cowboy doesn't wear any pants.

The most fun is is not having your pants fall down but setting cardboard props & dummies on fire.

Steve

[Hawg]

I like the shotgun poppers where you knock a target over and it throws a clay pigeon in the air.

[Crunchy Frog]

I ran across a book on cowboy action shooting at a bookstore a couple of years ago. The information was WAY out of date, both in terms of the rules, firearms in current production and current trends in stage design.

"Attend a local match" is the best way to learn about how the game is played.

Many people have the impression that cowboy shooters are "in character" while at the match. People are called by their alias but that's about as far as it goes, in my experience.

[Hellgate]

People are more in character when at a big annual or regional match. That's where the "doll up".

[Driftwood Johnson]

People are more in character when at a big annual or regional match. That's where the "doll up".

That is not my experience. Those shooters, including myself, who like to wear the full compliment of cowboy clothes do it at every match, not just the big annuals or regionals.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

for me... the level of costume depends on how hot & humid it is

[Crunchy Frog]

Some of my cowboy shooting friends may not be "in character" but they ARE characters!

[4V50 Gary]

Classmate (from OR) told me about one CAS. He handloaded and got his ammunition down to about zero recoil. The bullets were so slow you could watch them in flight. He'd hit the targets, but for the lack of energy couldn't knock them down. He whined and complained his way to top gun.

[Hellgate]

We had one guy load his pistol ammo down so much that one match he had a bullet bounce off a CARDBOARD target and land at his feet. From then on we christened him "Kid Dimple".