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August 23, 2013, 07:19 PM | #1 |
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Help With Rifle Calibers!
Hey there sports fans!
So, I need some help with my first long gun! I don't quite understand the difference in calibers. I am quite comfortable with handgun cartridges, and understand the considerations for selecting them. I just can't seem to grasp long guns! I think the naming conventions are throwing me off. For example: 1. Why is it that a .223 has so much more respect than a .22lr?! Are the bullets not relatively the same size? 2. What does .30 caliber mean? Does this include .308? 30-06? 30-30? 3. What is a good versatile hunting round? 4. What is a good tactical round? Also, why are AR-15 rifles so popular given that they are chambered for a relatively small round? (That question -well, this entire post- could be a testament to my ignorance) Thanks for your help! |
August 23, 2013, 07:41 PM | #2 |
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Well, this could be epic...
The first "number" should be, for most any rifle cartridge I can think of, the diameter of the bullet. 7mm Rem Mag. 338 WinMag. 308Win. For "45-70" and "30-30" the first number is the bullet diameter or caliber, the second is the grains (by volume) of black powder contained in a factory loaded cartridge. "30-06" and "30-08" were both military cartridges, the first adopted by the US army in 19"06" and the other adopted by I believe the German army in 19"08". In general a "30" caliber rifle uses a bullet .308" (or 7.62mm) in diameter. In general "22" caliber rifles use a bullet .224" (or 5.7mm, or 5.56mm) in diameter. NB: "223 Remington" uses a .224" diameter bullet. Per your specific questions: 1. 22LR typically launchs a .224" bullet weighing 40grains (440 grains to one ounce, so about 1/11th of an ounce) at 800 to maybe 1200 fps muzzle. 223Rem was originally designed to toss a 50gr .224" bullet at 3000fps, current loads for 62gr bullets (mine) run about 2500-2700fps. 2. All the calibers you specifically mentioned use .308" diameter bullets, but each has a range of suitable bullet weights and reasonably achievable velocities. 3. It depends on what you want to hunt, how versatile you want it to be. If I could only have one hunting rifle in North American I would probably go with either .308Winchester or 30-06. Adequate defense against big bears along the Alaskan coast, suitable for moose and caribou, way plenty for black bear in the lower 48, OK for wide open space antelope, way way plenty for white tailed deer. If I was going to hunt a lot of antelope I would use a smaller lighter bullet that could fly a little further. I hear tell antelope are real hard to get close to, never hunted one myself. If i was going to hunt a lot of white tail in deep woods I would look for a 1894 Winchester rifle chambered in 30-30. It really depends. However, if you plan carefully you ought to be able to build a hunting rifle battery or collection around four rifles such that one of your four rifles will be a good choice for anything. Which four - another lengthy debate. 4. What are your tactics? The M1 Garand chambered in 30-06 was a good match with out infantry tactics in the 1940s. Whether we changed our tactics first and then designed the 223Remington, or changed our infantry tactics to accommodate the 223Remington will be debated for centuries. Bonus: The hallmark strength of the AR15 platform is the shear number of calibers it can run. Start with a 5.56. Buy a 458Socom upper and have a bison rifle. Buy a 6.8mm Grendel upper and have a 50state legal deer rifle. Buy a 17RemFireball upper and have a varmit rifle. All of these uppers can run on the same lower with the same shoulder stock and the same trigger and the same trigger break every time. Good luck. |
August 23, 2013, 07:44 PM | #3 |
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1.Why is it that a .223 has so much more respect than a .22lr?! Are the bullets not relatively the same size?
Velocity and bullet weight so out surpasses the LR that there not in the same league. 2. What does .30 caliber mean? Does this include .308? 30-06? 30-30? The 30 caliber rounds you just mentioned are all .308 inches in diameter. 3. What is a good versatile hunting round? Depending on what you’re shooting the 3 you listed are some of the best for midsized game. 4. What is a good tactical round? 308 and 30-06 are good and add the 5.56
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August 23, 2013, 07:52 PM | #4 |
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1. Why is it that a .223 has so much more respect than a .22lr?! Are the bullets not relatively the same size?
Yes, they're roughly the same calibre, but the 223 fires a jacketed bullet travelling almost 4 times as fast, and has a lot more target effect. 2. What does .30 caliber mean? Does this include .308? 30-06? 30-30? Yes, these would all be 30-calibre, but loaded into different cartridges and having different velocities and effective ranges (though the 308 and 30-06 are near identical in that respect). 3. What is a good versatile hunting round? It really depends on what you'd be planning to hunt, and at what ranges; some areas of the country, you'd be hunting in relatively thick forest, and any shots would be within 100 yards (30-30 would be typical here), while other areas of the country, you'd be lucky to even see a game animal at under 300 yards, and you'd need something with a flatter trajectory and long-range accuracy (270 Win, 30-06, or 7mm Mag). Or, you might be doing some "varmint" hunting, which requires a lightweight bullet and precise shooting, so you could choose among a wide range of .22-6mm centrefires. 4. What is a good tactical round? Again, depends on what the projected use is; long -range sniping, close-range house-clearing, patrol carbine? Depending on the specifics, you can find rifles and calibres ranging from pistol-calibre carbines up through 338 Lapua Mag. Also, why are AR-15 rifles so popular given that they are chambered for a relatively small round? (That question -well, this entire post- could be a testament to my ignorance) They're simple, ergonomic, easy to maintain, have a wide range of accessories, have low recoil, are easy to learn to shoot well, have respectable target effect and a wide range of available ammunition for different uses, and on, and on, and on...
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August 23, 2013, 08:00 PM | #5 | |||||
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That said, the bullets are nearly the same size and weight (the .223 Remington typically uses a bullet weighing 55 grains, the .22lr a 40 gr bullet), but the cartridges are not: the .22lr has maybe 1/10 the case capacity and operates at a much lower pressure, yeilding a much lower velocity. In simplest terms, the .223 has much more propellant behind it, making it go about 2.5-3 times as fast. Quote:
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There are SO Many. I like .270 Winchester. Nearly any medium bore rifle with sufficient case capacity can be used to kill anything in North America, if loaded properly. Quote:
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August 23, 2013, 08:01 PM | #6 | |
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August 23, 2013, 08:32 PM | #7 | |||||
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August 23, 2013, 08:46 PM | #8 |
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I would hardly say the 223 gets "more respect" than the 22LR, I suspect the 22LR is THE best selling round in this country and outsells the 223 by a factor of at least 10.
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August 23, 2013, 08:51 PM | #9 |
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Several bullet manufacturers have "maps" of all the bullets they make, from 22-caliber on up to 45-caliber, in all the various weights.
Many gun stores have cartridge displays showing both antique and modern cartridges. US and European cartridges can be the same, but with the US cartridges using the English system and the European cartridges using the metric system. To really muddy the water, you have factory cartridges and "wildcat" cartridges. A wildcat can be an original design by some individual, or merely some factory cartridge necked up or down for a different bullet diameter by somebody who wants something different. There are no, repeat no, hard and fast rules about naming cartridges. |
August 23, 2013, 09:02 PM | #10 |
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AR-15s are popular because many shooters in this country like to have the same firearms they trained on in Uncle Sam's service and the AR-15 is designed for modern low cost rapid manufacture.
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August 23, 2013, 10:25 PM | #11 |
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interesting...
while I was serving uncle sam I wasn't restricted to semi auto and my M16 didn't have a nice badger ordnance handguard, RRA 2 stage trigger and hogue pistol grip. the controls may be the same as the M16/4 but they are not the same thing and nobody would claim that they are unless their last name is holder, fienstien or clinton.
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August 24, 2013, 06:30 AM | #12 |
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Cartridges named after people are much more deadly, not to mention having nostalgic appeal.
To wit: 35 Whelen 257 Roberts 454 Casull 458 Lott And of course the 280 Remington. Named for the great western artist. |
August 24, 2013, 08:03 AM | #13 |
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A few clarifications, if I may...
"The first "number" should be, for most any rifle cartridge I can think of, the diameter of the bullet." It's the nominal bullet caliber. Almost always the true bullet diameter is a bit different. For example, the .300 Winchester Magnum takes a .308 diameter bullet. The .270 Winchester takes a .277 caliber bullet. One exception to that is the .308 Winchester, which takes a .308 diameter bullet. "For "45-70" and "30-30" the first number is the bullet diameter or caliber, the second is the grains (by volume) of black powder contained in a factory loaded cartridge." True for the .45-70, but not the .30-30. The .30-30 was never loaded with black powder from the factory. It was, however, loaded with 30 grains of smokeless powder. Same with the .25-35 Winchester, and the .30-40 Krag. That old "powder weight" nomenclature was quickly abandoned, though, because smokeless powder was so much more versatile than black powder. ""30-06" and "30-08" were both military cartridges, the first adopted by the US army in 19"06" and the other adopted by I believe the German army in 19"08"." True for the .30-06, but not the .30-08. There never was such a cartridge as the .30-08. The .308 Winchester/7.62x51 NATO cartridge was developed after World War II and adopted into US military and NATO service in the 1950s.
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August 24, 2013, 12:08 PM | #14 | |
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I hope that's helped. . |
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August 24, 2013, 03:05 PM | #15 |
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Best thing for you to do is pick up a good reloading manual (Speer, Lyman, etc). Looking at the ballistic info and reading about each caliber will immediately clear thing up for you.
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August 24, 2013, 03:46 PM | #16 |
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Here is a visual comparison between .22LR and .223Rem (taken from thefirearm blog)
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August 24, 2013, 04:05 PM | #17 |
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In traditional terminology, caliber is the bore diameter of the barrel.
A .30 or .300 caliber rifle will have a bore diameter very near .300" That is the size of the hole drilled and reamed through the bar of steel being made into a barrel. Then they rifle it. Rifling grooves in that caliber range are commonly .004" deep. So the groove diameter, measured from bottom to bottom of opposing grooves, is .308". There is no mention of the chamber or cartridge, it is strictly the specification of the barrel. The complete name identifies the cartridge. This is a common Internet Error, the groove diameter being reported as the bore. You can read the catalogs and see that some guns are identified by bore diameter and some by groove diameter. (It is the American policy to make the bullets fit the groove diameter. This is not necessarily so in the rest of the world.) QV .300 Winchester Magnum and .308 Winchester have the same barrel specifications. One is named by the bore diameter, the other by the groove/bullet diameter. 7.62mm = .300" which is where the French System (metric) designation of a whole family of guns comes from. But Lazzeroni calls their products by the metric diameter of the bullet/groove, 7.82. And some are just dreamed up by the advertising department. For example, .218 Bee, .219 Zipper, .220 Swift, .221 Fireball, .222 Remington, .223 Remington, .224 Weatherby, and .225 Winchester ALL shoot .224" diameter bullets out of barrels with that as groove diameter. But the early .22 Hornet and the old .22 Savage High Power don't. Winchester did not introduce the .30-30 (under that name.) They brought out the .30 WCF (Winchester Center Fire.) But Marlin did not want to put the competitor's logo on their rifle, so they called it .30-30. It is not that there is no system of cartridge nomenclature, it is that there are several and you just have to learn by rote to recognize which you are looking at. |
August 24, 2013, 04:17 PM | #18 |
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As we all debate how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin .......here's some advice to the OP:
Get a .22lr rifle and master the fundamentals. Attend an Appleseed event, for inexpensive instruction. Decide on a centerfire rifle to fit our needs ...... don't overthink it, but try to pick something that will be easy to feed. Save your brass and learn to handload (it will not save you a bunch of money, but you will shoot a lot more and you will learn a lot in the process!) |
August 24, 2013, 07:12 PM | #19 |
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Buy yourself a copy of " Cartridges of the World" and study it for a week.
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August 24, 2013, 10:34 PM | #20 |
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While I think the 30-06 is probably the most versatile caliber, the one I think covers all reality hunting would be the 270 (.277 caliber and no, like 38 special it makes not sense as the name does not match the real caliber).
Probably the only animal not on the list for 270 W would be Brown or Grizzly bear (I left the alone all my life and they left me alone) |
August 24, 2013, 11:23 PM | #21 | |
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http://www.amazon.com/Cartridges-Wor.../dp/1440230595 The best thirty bucks you will ever spend.
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August 24, 2013, 11:24 PM | #22 | |||
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Oh and the 22lr Is well respected by those that no its capabilities. Well you guys cover this so well I should have kept my mouth shut but I have flappy fingers tonight and had to put my 2 cents in. I had a feeling when I read the OP that there would be a flood of replies to this one. What a doozy Boomer
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August 25, 2013, 12:06 PM | #23 | |
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August 25, 2013, 12:35 PM | #24 |
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Tahunua100 these are rated for 1700fps. I have a couple of boxes but have never shot them. They are light at 30grs. Super Maximums. The 4th and 5th ones on the list.
http://www.aguilaammo.com/rimfire.html |
August 25, 2013, 07:37 PM | #25 |
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I think most questions have been very well covered. Now what we need to know is what does the OP wnat to do with whatever rifle/cartridge combo he chooses. What would be a versital hunting round depends on what's available.
The Late Col. Townsend Whelen once said, "The 30-06 is never a mistake." personally I agree with that but for a tactical rifle, the .223 (limited) .308/7.62 NATO. .300 Win. mag., .338 Lapua mag. and the mighty Browning .50 BMG just might be better chpoices tactically. I'm not even sure they use the 30-06 as a tactical cartridge anymore but freely admit I could be wrong. It sure doesn't seem to get the press of the others which is why my thought run in that direction. As a hunting proposition, it depends. If limited to one rifle, probaly go with the 30-06. Sure would hate to give up my .35 Whelen though. Paul B.
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