The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 15, 2010, 08:55 PM   #1
sonrider657
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2010
Posts: 100
Chapman's Stance

Although not normally considered a tactical publication, Backwoods Home Magazine always has excellent gun articles by Massad Ayoob.

In the current issue (July/August 2010), Mas describes "Chapman's Stance" as developed by the late Ray Chapman whereby one uses the same basic shooting stance for rifle, shotgun, and pistol.

Anyone shoot this way?
sonrider657 is offline  
Old July 15, 2010, 09:04 PM   #2
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,061
Kind of, I guess I do. I like balance. I stand up straight with equal weight on both legs. Rifle, pistol and shotgun. Not considered the norm for combat shooting, but works for me.

One thing you should consider about Chapman's or anyone else' stance, YOU AIN'T THEM. All people are different, regardless what any instructor tells you, you have to adapt a stance that fits you.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old July 19, 2010, 08:45 PM   #3
TylerD45ACP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2010
Posts: 1,654
I shoot weaver but everyone is different. Figure out what works for you Kraig is right. You may have to modify it a bit but once youv'e got it don't let it change a bit. I got a great stance going after years of practice I automatically go into, it works and I'm not changing it.
TylerD45ACP is offline  
Old July 20, 2010, 05:54 AM   #4
Murdock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2008
Location: Down East Maine
Posts: 431
Chapman was my preferred stance for years.

Lately I seem to be keeping both arms bent a bit more at the elbows, dunno why. I also seem to shift into isosceles more when I'm trying to go fast, especially up close. I guess I don't really think much about it any more, and just think about the sights and trigger. Any stance that gets me there and then back on target for repeat shots is OK.

The concept of "universal sports stance" is worth paying attention to, I believe. This means knees slightly flexed, weight a bit forward over the toes, elbows slightly bent and hands in front of you, and able to shift in any direction quickly. Karate, skeet, soccer or tennis, it's all the same and quite natural. Mind you, I don't start in that stance, but shift into it as things get going. Any any handgun grip and stance that grafts onto that and works for you is the way to go.
__________________
The United States Marine Corps: Providing the enemies of America the opportunity to die for their countries since 1775. Semper fi.

Last edited by Murdock; July 20, 2010 at 06:01 AM.
Murdock is offline  
Old July 20, 2010, 08:55 AM   #5
ISC
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,982
Never heard of it. I was brought up shooting weaver and it is still my instinctive stance, but I am developing the muscle memory to shoot isoceles. The problem is that I shoot as a civilian much more than I do as a soldier and unless you're wearing body armor Weaver is far superior in terms of presenting a smaller cross section to your oponent and multidirectional stability.

Like I said, I never even heard of Chapman, but the picture I have in my mind makes me wonder if it might make a shooter more susceptible to limp wristing or the semiauto long gun equivilent.
ISC is offline  
Old July 20, 2010, 09:34 AM   #6
pax
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: In a state of flux
Posts: 7,520
ISC ~

Less so, actually.

Photos of different stances here: www.corneredcat.com/Basics/stance.aspx

Chapman's most significant weakness, IMO, is that it doesn't work well for people who are cross-dominant. A left eyed, right handed shooter using a Chapman stance pretty much has to blind himself in order to get his dominant eye behind the sights in Chapman. (Weaver is slightly better, as far as that goes. Only Isosceles deals well with the cross dominant shooter.)

Chapman's strengths include excellent recoil control & recovery, esp for people with less upper body strength; an easily consistent shooting position with good felt indexes; and a very solid shooting platform including the wrist solidity you were concerned about.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old July 20, 2010, 09:40 AM   #7
ISC
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,982
Well apparently the way I've been shooting for the last 20 years is called the Chapman stance.
ISC is offline  
Old July 20, 2010, 10:47 AM   #8
booker_t
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2009
Posts: 797
Quote:
TylerD; You may have to modify it a bit but once youv'e got it don't let it change a bit.
I have to disagree with you Tyler, strongly. Stance is something that, quite frankly, doesn't really matter that much unless you are exclusively involved in precision target shooting (Olympic style shooting, for example).

In any dynamic shooting, stance and grip are continually being modified, even if only slightly. What should remain constant is front sight tracking, and that is accomplished through trigger manipulation and focus (focus through observation, not to be confused with concentration). Your objective should be to produce consistent trigger manipulation and front sight tracking regardless of stance or position/movement.

As our bodies change, with every round that we shoot, we should be observing and learning. That means our "technique" is constantly evolving. What works for the new shooter won't necessary work when they are ready to shoot IPSC. Likewise when they are suited up to raid a drug house, those IPSC fundamentals won't necessarily all translate. Even if you aren't going from application to application, if all you do is IPSC, you should be open minded and flexible to allow your stance to change otherwise you will always limit your performance.

And these ideas aren't all my own, I have borrowed them from the greats. If you listen and watch some of the better shooters of our time (Brian Enos, Rob Leatham, Todd Jarrett, etc.) you will find these same ideas being consistently repeated. Open yourself up and allow your shooting to grow the way it naturally is inclined to do.

Last edited by booker_t; July 20, 2010 at 11:25 AM.
booker_t is offline  
Old July 20, 2010, 12:40 PM   #9
Murdock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2008
Location: Down East Maine
Posts: 431
Quote:
In any dynamic shooting, stance and grip are continually being modified, even if only slightly. What should remain constant is front sight tracking, and that is accomplished through trigger manipulation and focus (focus through observation, not to be confused with concentration). Your objective should be to produce consistent trigger manipulation and front sight tracking regardless of stance or position/movement.
+1

That's pretty much the whole enchilada.
__________________
The United States Marine Corps: Providing the enemies of America the opportunity to die for their countries since 1775. Semper fi.
Murdock is offline  
Old July 20, 2010, 12:49 PM   #10
TylerD45ACP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2010
Posts: 1,654
Interesting Booker definitley taking that into account because it makes a he** of a lot of sense. I meant find a stance (weaver) and stick to that one so you don't confuse yourself with thinking about stances in a time saving situation. Like I said modify it, like my weaver is different in different positions, but its what comes most natural. Trigger manipulation and Sight Alignment are definitley more important than stance. My post was kind of close minded though. Side Note: If you know of any good self defense books to read about shooters, shootings, anything like that. I am always interested in the most knowledge possible.
TylerD45ACP is offline  
Old July 20, 2010, 01:07 PM   #11
booker_t
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2009
Posts: 797
Tyler, I agree with you 100% on that one, being comfortable with some basic elements of stance and grip are certainly important, especially for the beginner, if for no other reason than safety, but also to provide a sound foundation to work from. This is why I suggest that new shooters who are interested in developing their shooting spend a little money to get training from a quality instructor.

One point of clarification.. sight alignment and front sight tracking are distinct things. I believe (some agree, some do not) that even (active) sight alignment isn't ultimately all that important for dynamic pistol shooting. With practice and a solid index, by visualizing the front sight, your sight alignment has taken care of itself because of a well-developed index. On the other hand, visualizing the front sight's movement immediately following the trigger break is absolutely vital to placing rapid follow-up shots. And the motion of the sight is irrelevant; it can go straight up, it can go to 2 o'clock, it can do a figure 4, but find what it does and watch it intently (the value of both eyes open). If it doesn't do what you expect it to do, then it's telling you what's wrong with your shooting while you're shooting, so you can correct for the next break. "Heady" stuff I know, but worth putting out there.

As the shooter matures from beginner to intermediate (which usually happens pretty quickly), I think there is benefit in not being hung up on techniques or equipment, as people are prone to do in whatever field they are in (photography, fitness, shooting pool, golf, etc.). Perhaps the only area where people don't think better equipment or supplements or "pro secrets" will actually make them better is chess. hah What I'm driving at is, work on the shooter. Shooting isn't a very difficult task, allowing your body to naturally perform without becoming tense from excessive thought is the largest hurdle.

Some resources that immediately come to mind (as I've read or looked at them recently) are:

Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals, Brian Enos
http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Shoo...9648679&sr=8-2

Or http://www.brianenos.com/store/books.html, he has a number of excellent books available. I would consider him my go-to author for pistolcraft.

Surgical Speed Shooting: How To Achieve High-Speed Marksmanship In A Gunfight, Andy Stafford
http://www.amazon.com/Surgical-Speed...9648722&sr=1-1

T.A.P.S. Tactical Application of Practical Shooting: Recognize the void in your tactical training, Patrick McNamara
http://www.amazon.com/P-S-Tactical-A...=1CL07PD0KL43J

Tactical Pistol Shooting: Your Guide to Tactics & Techniques that Work, Eric Lawrence
http://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Pisto...9648953&sr=1-1

The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, Massad Ayoob
http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-Boo.../ref=pd_cp_b_1

The Gun Digest Book Of Concealed Carry, Massad Ayoob
http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-Boo.../ref=pd_cp_b_2

Stressfire, Vol. 1 (Gunfighting for Police: Advanced Tactics and Techniques), Massad Ayoob
http://www.amazon.com/Stressfire-Vol...u-wl_list-recs

..and no I don't get paid by Amazon.com, but I wish I did! Happy shooting & be safe.

Last edited by booker_t; July 20, 2010 at 01:30 PM.
booker_t is offline  
Old July 20, 2010, 01:29 PM   #12
TylerD45ACP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2010
Posts: 1,654
COOL. Thanks for all those books references I got a coulpe of Ayoob's already . I have been shooting for a while, 14 years now and started young, With my SW1911 45ACP at 30 ft. I regularly shoot 1.0-2.0" groups with a decent rate of fire. So I have defintley grown as a shooter but I still have a he** of a lot more growing to do, including my firearm collection
TylerD45ACP is offline  
Old July 20, 2010, 03:29 PM   #13
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
There's a couple more ways that haven't been mentioned yet.

One has the gun arm bent and the support arm straight,
Kind of backasswards from what is mostly taught.
It helps control recoil and point the gun very well.

Another is the close quarter version of the isosceles.
The gun is held close to the chest, in front of the face.
The elbows are bent a lot more than the regular isosceles, just about touching the ribs.

Which to use, when to use it?
Life is so confusing.
g.willikers is offline  
Old July 24, 2010, 02:37 PM   #14
27Veer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2009
Location: Las Cruces
Posts: 117
One of my instructors says ChapmanHold, as he does Weaver Hold, and Iso Hold The stance can be anything as solid as possible but should be a good crouched fighters stance.
27Veer is offline  
Old July 25, 2010, 07:38 PM   #15
m&p45acp10+1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 3,930
I personaly shoot from several stances. When shooting steel plates at 15 yards with my .41 mag I find my self in a weaver stance. Fast combat style shooting is usualy isoc., when shooting carbines it would be the Chapman. I do what works for me, it might not work for you. I consider what works best for me by how costantly I hit what I am shooting at.
__________________
No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.
m&p45acp10+1 is offline  
Old July 25, 2010, 08:22 PM   #16
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
I tend to shoot that way. It's a good confrontational position for lots of things, from boxing to rifle and pistol shooting. How else would you shoot a rifle other than foot back similar to Chapman pistol?

On the other hand, I never tried to position my self precisely in accordance with someone's personal technique.

I did what came natural, and I'm willing to bet that most of us have, also.

One day, years ago, I read that the shooting position I'd been using all along was known as the "Chapman" position, which is a variation of the "Weaver" stance. I suspect that my position is actually a slight modification of the Chapman.

Chapman did what was natural for him and may be natural for the rest of us as well.

Speaking for myself, it's the Isosceles that requires learning an unnatural technique

Last edited by Nnobby45; July 25, 2010 at 08:34 PM.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old July 27, 2010, 06:02 AM   #17
Jeff22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2004
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 715
Shooting Stances -- Definitions from LFI

THE TRADITIONAL WEAVER STANCE
(1.) Body bladed about 45 degrees in relation to the target (boxer stance)
(2.) Legs are locked at the knees.
(3.) Firing arm is slightly bent at the elbow (pre-lock).
(4.) Support arm elbow is sharply bent and pointing down at the lead foot.
(5.) Firing hand pushes out.
(6.) Support hand pulls in
(7.) Because the bent arms may lower the position of the gun, the head may have to be tilted to the side to achieve proper sight alignment.

The advantage of the traditional Weaver Stance is that the bent arms and isometric tension of the pushing and pulling muscles create a shock absorber effect that significantly reduces felt recoil and snaps the gun rapidly back on target. Since the gun is closer to the body, it feels lighter and in fact exerts less leverage weight on bent arms than it would on fully extended, locked out arms.

The disadvantages are that the stance is uncomfortable for many people. Shooters with shorter arms, greater upper body mass, or women with big bosoms (!) find it difficult to blade in relation to the target and reach across their chest. Sometimes the strong arm will over-power the weak arm, sending
bullets high to the left side for the right handed shooter. More often, the shooter may not lock the elbow of the support arm down enough, which results in the stance becoming unlocked and causes shots to drift low right for the right handed shooter.



THE CHAPMAN MODIFIED WEAVER STANCE
1.) Body slightly bladed in relation to the target.
2.) Weak side foot forward
3.) Strong side foot back
4.) Weight balanced slightly on the lead foot.
5.) Center of gravity slightly forward.
6.) The foot position should be like driving a punch -- the forward leg bears the weight and the rear leg is the drive leg.
7.) Elbow of the strong arm is locked.
8.) Elbow of the support arm is bent down and aimed at the lead foot
9.) Lead shoulder over the lead knee
!0.) Isometric Tension -- strong hand pushes out and weak hand pulls back.
11.) Bring the head down to the sights. If you bring the gun UP to your eye,
you may shoot HIGH.
12.) Cheekweld the side of your jaw on the strong side upper arm, just like
cheeking a rifle stock. This consistently positions your eyes in relation
to the sights, every time.
13.) Wide stance -- pyramidal base

(this position is my personal favorite by far. I find that bringing my head down to the sights, establishing a cheek weld with the upper arm on my strong side, and keeping the center of gravity forward works very well when firing multiple rapid shots or when
engaging multiple targets. )

MODIFIED ISOCELES POSITION (aka the "turret" )
(1.) Wide stance -- pyramidal base
(2.) Weak side foot forward
(3.) Strong side foot back
(4.) Weight on the lead foot/shoulders forward of the feet
(5.) Center of gravity slightly forward
(6.) Arms locked out
(7.) Slight crouch -- kneels unlocked
(8.) Lean into the gun

With the torso bent slightly at the waist and the gun straight out ahead in both hands, the body is balanced by the flexed knees, which automatically compensate for balance by lowering the center of gravity for the body in the pelvis. This technique can be made even stronger by taking a step toward the target with the weak foot and bending the lead knee, applying the weight forward. Think of it as leaning into the gun.

The body is now poised to move instantly forward or back, or side to side, and a considerable portion of upper body weight, coupled with the muscular tension of the locked arms, helps snap the handgun down in recoil.

(this position is essentially Isoceles from the waist up and Weaver from the waist down, and seems to be the most comfortable for many people)
__________________
You can only learn from experience if you pay attention!
Jeff22 is offline  
Old July 27, 2010, 09:30 AM   #18
FoxtrotRomeo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2010
Posts: 487
Yup I use different stances depending on the firearm I'm using. My AR? I don't care felt recoil is next to nothing so I just fire the rounds in whatever position I want. Tantal? Same thing. My WASR? Since I replaced the recoil spring with an extra pressure spring then I generally do the same.

My pistols are a lil different. Lack of a stock makes recoil less forgiving sometimes.

My XD-40 Service, 1911 and Desert Eagle I take a decently wide stance go weaver and pivot from target to target using my waist to minimize arm and hand movement in my sights. The 1911 and XD I know I can negotiate scanning cover with one hand on the pistol only if I have to but I'd better have two hands on the DE before I pull the trigger (Common sense on that one right?)

My 460V? I can do what I want with that one just the same if I get the right load. My SD load for such a thing is not full blown .460 rounds or .454 rounds (Which would list me in the crazy and stupid section when I have to room enter and clear my own house.) Chances are I'd want reloads (Shame I can't reload) for that pistol. 255 grain with performance similar to a .44 magnum. Reason is, sucker is so heavy that it absorbs a lot of recoil so I get to pack nastier and not worry about slowing down on a follow up shot if I need it.

If I'm goofin at the range with full blown .460 loads then a good wide stance and a modified grip is in order so I don't bruise the finger on my left hand with the downward pressure from the trigger guard. Locked elbow is also helpful along with leaning into it. Anything to redirect the recoil as straight back as you can will help with those rounds. I imagine the .500 S&W would be sorta the same.


My in house SD preference my 870? Wide Stance, Hunch over and lean into that one. If I lean into it like that I noticed I can unload at a pretty impressive rate for a pump if I have to but only for a few seconds (My arm gets worn out lol).
FoxtrotRomeo is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 09:58 AM   #19
Kmar40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 668
Quote:
The problem is that I shoot as a civilian much more than I do as a soldier and unless you're wearing body armor Weaver is far superior in terms of presenting a smaller cross section to your oponent and multidirectional stability.
I don't like your theory. Why? Because blading off or shooting the old military way (sideways) to present a smaller target is likely to get you killed.

Hunters wait, wait, wait for that broadside target, the chance to drop both lungs and end the game then and there.

You can take a torso shot and even live without one lung. Plenty of people do. Your combat lifesavers have the equipment and training to manage one dropped lung. You can even survive a heart shot if your medic is close by and can treat tamponade. But a broadside shot to both lungs will drop you in your tracks just as surely as it drops a deer. It is a game-ender.

Integrate movement--primarily lateral movement-- into your training and get good at putting rounds on target while doing it. Remember that the BEST cover is well-aimed fire.
Kmar40 is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 01:01 PM   #20
TylerD45ACP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2010
Posts: 1,654
You are absolutley right about a broad shot to both lungs being the ENDGAME. You are done for, both popped with one shot. Yes people can survive heart shots as well, the human body is a lot tougher than most people give it credit for. Especially when you add deliberation. I don't think he meant really broadside though. The weaver just allows to reduce profile a bit. My brother and I practice CQB with gas airsoft pistols (closest thing we can get to SIMS and use regularly). People may think its goofy but it helps to make it muscle memory.
TylerD45ACP is offline  
Old July 31, 2010, 10:56 PM   #21
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 2,199
TylerD45ACP, I think airsoft pistol FOF training is a very good thing. They are the most realistic thing most of us can afford. At a few yards, they are accurate enough to simulate a real firearm.
raimius is offline  
Old August 1, 2010, 05:33 PM   #22
TylerD45ACP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2010
Posts: 1,654
Yea, it seems like a practical way to get in some experience. Im glad to hear that other people thought of that as a inexpensive means of training as well. Like you said affordable too, so I think they work.
TylerD45ACP is offline  
Old August 1, 2010, 06:07 PM   #23
Shane Tuttle
Staff
 
Join Date: November 28, 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 9,442
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmar40
I don't like your theory. Why? Because blading off or shooting the old military way (sideways) to present a smaller target is likely to get you killed.
Hunters wait, wait, wait for that broadside target, the chance to drop both lungs and end the game then and there.
You can take a torso shot and even live without one lung. Plenty of people do. Your combat lifesavers have the equipment and training to manage one dropped lung. You can even survive a heart shot if your medic is close by and can treat tamponade. But a broadside shot to both lungs will drop you in your tracks just as surely as it drops a deer. It is a game-ender.
Animal game's body structure is different from humans. If you're trying to shoot at a person at a bladed angle, the lungs are protected to a better degree than, say, a deer. A person's shoulder/arm is covering quite a bit of the arm, providing quite a bit of meat to penetrate before even getting to the first lung. On top of that, trying to make it to the other lung to rely on a sure kill on a person isn't nearly as likely as a wound to the heart. Probability rate of succeeding a double lung shot compared to a single heart shot and the person being killed due to stance is just not in the cards. CAN a medic keep you alive until you're on the operating table to be patched up? I would say it's possible, but not nearly as likely of a survival rate as stated above.
__________________
If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language.

Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting
Shane Tuttle is offline  
Old August 1, 2010, 08:02 PM   #24
Kmar40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 668
We'll your opinion is your opinion. I used to shoot Weaver but never really Chapman.

The theory regarding not purposefully offering a broadside target is what is being taught by all the other federal law enforcement instructors. And, yes, many of us are investigators who do not routinely wear body armor. It's a topic which was well discussed and researched.

A thorax shot which fully traverses is relatively easy. The lungs are mostly air. A pistol round with the FBI spec 12+" of penetration will easily break the humerus then cross the thorax, dropping both lungs in the meantime. And the game is over.

Admittedly, not all bad guys carry service pistols with good ammo. But you won't know that in advance. Stack the odds in your favor as much as possible. Don't offer them your flank.

Last edited by Kmar40; August 1, 2010 at 08:30 PM.
Kmar40 is offline  
Old August 2, 2010, 05:32 PM   #25
TylerD45ACP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2010
Posts: 1,654
^+1 NEVER underestimate your opponent. True, they will probably be carrying a Jennings 22, or a Lorcin 9mm, Hi-Point...you get the picture. However, think that they are carring a serious self defense (offence for BG) pistol and they know how to use it well, as well as it being loaded with premium SD rounds. You never know whats going to happen and chances are in a SD situation it's going to happen fast and unexpected outcomes are going to happen, no matter how prepared. Tuttle I agree we are very different than animals, our arms protect us like you said. I think Kmar meant it as just a sort of quick reference to why he shoots as he does. I think comparing it to the deer was his closest way to describe why he doesn't like it.
TylerD45ACP is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08186 seconds with 10 queries