hypothetical situation - unknowingly drawing on LEO

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by Doug .38PR

This gives a pretty good argument for NOT hesitating and talking too much. Pull your gun quick and cover him. Get him under control and if he doesn't comply, shoot. stop the situation before it becomes a hostage situation

Doug,

I am assuming that you are taking your position from the point of view that you have already confronted the person holding your brother at gun point. I guess that leaves you few options. My point of view is maybe you should consider observing for just a moment before deciding to confront the subject. The subject does not know if you are related or if you even know each other at all (unless you are twins and dress alike ) Like we both agreed, the differences are pretty clear between the way a LEO would act and the way a bad guy would act. It is much better to acertain the situation rather than acting without thinking.

Are you willing to shoot without confronting the unknown subject, assuming you are firing from a position of cover and have a reasonably good shot? So far the unknow subject has not shot your brother. If he was planning to do so, your brother would probably be a bloody heap on the floor. In that case, blast away. Most robbers don't want to shoot someone and end up with a murder rap. (I also know that some coked up SOBs don't give a crap and would just a soon shoot their own mother if they didn't cough up the dough for their next fix) It is always better to have more information than to show your hand too early. Your pocket aces may get trumped by lowly trip 2s (sorry, I just played poker yesterday so I'm still in poker mode )

[jcoiii]

This has been mentioned,but to reiterate...

If this guy was going to shoot your family member, they'd probably already be shot, in which case I'd go with the assumption that it was probably not LEO.

[OneInTheChamber]

I'd yell at him from a distance (say 20-30 feet), in a position over cover, with my gun out, but out of sight too (behind cover). You'll be able to tell by his reaction and tone whether he is legit or not. Chances are he's legit.

If you draw on a cop it's not going to be good. He's not going to put down his gun. If anything he'll order you to put yours down. If you don't, you will go to jail for it; or worse.

It is a bad situation at best. I don't think an off duty LEO is going to be holding him with a gun up against his chest like a BG would. I think an LEO is much more likely to take him to the ground, and put him in a hold/cuffs. Also look at how your brother is acting. Is he scared? Or does he look like he is trying to explain things to a cop? That will be a big factor on how you act.

[Blackwater OPS]

#1 I walk around the corner and see my Mother/Wife (I know thread said brother, but I don't have one) held at GP by a non-uniformed person with no ID visible. -Target gets engaged ASAP, head shots.

#2 I am off duty, and someone's life is in danger(only time I would do it), so I have drawn my weapon on a suspect. Another suspect shows up and is exibiting a firearm.
Second suspect gets engaged ASAP, centermass, then I attept to secure first suspect, if he has a weapon out at that time, suspect gets engaged ASAP, centermass.

#3 I am on duty, but plain clothes. The only experience I have with this is counter-terror and PSD(working with the secret service or Diplomatic Security) so, if I have drawn my weapon it is because I have percieved a threat or #2 applies. Another suspect shows up and is exibiting a firearm.
First suspect gets 1 HS, second gets engaged centermass.

So, based on my training, exp. and general thoughts on staying alive, thats how I would respond. It may not be perfect and it's open to review, but that is my take.

[stephen426]

Sorry to say Blackwater OPS but you must have a get out of jail free card that we don't. Maybe you are responding the way you did because you substituted your mother or your wife in place of your brother. Women rarely commit crimes where they would need to be held a gun point (compared to guys that is). Lets say it was a good male friend of yours rather than your wife or sister. You don't believe that they are capable of doing anything wrong but there is always the case of mistaken identity. You also mentioned that you would engage the target ASAP. Like I said, engage your eyes and your brain before you engage your target. I don't have diplomatic immunity or any other get out of jail card. I prefer to assess the situation first before becoming some big man's piece of booty in the big house. If the assessment is that the threat is indeed a bad guy, I'd pop him in the melon in a heartbeat.

[Chris Phelps]

I have definitly drawn the conclusion that the current LEO's should NOT be in the position they are in.


OK... I will put myself in the position of the LEO. I am holding a percieved BG at gunpoint, when a voice from behind says "drop your weapon!"

I identify myself as an officer. The voice behind me asks for ID. Instantly I would know this is a reasonable person and not someone who wants to kill me. Think about it... if they knew what was going on, and they were another BG, they would scream something along the lines of "fk you pig!"

I would not instantly assume I was going to die... this is assanine. People who want to shoot you do not try to get your weapon out of your hand. What kind of BS are you LEO's spewing out about?

In all seriousness... inspired by current LEO posts here... I would shoot you without hesitation in this situation. Its obvious you dont feel anyone should walk out of this alive... Not if someone has the NERVE to think you might be a BG. I really don't understand your logic, and there is definitly no way I would stake my life or my brothers on the possibility that you would have more common sense when actually put in this situation than what you have sitting behind a computer screen with all the time in the world to play the situation out in your head.

Just because I ordered your firearm down does NOT mean I am uncompliant. What it DOES mean is "hey, I dont want anyone to get shot, but you are an unknown person with a firearm pointed at a loved one." I'd like to believe that every cop in the nation would understand this and simply ID themselves and tell me to drop my weapon, which I would gladly do after they have been ID'd. But, I guess with all the Barney Fife's running this country, its easier to kill you and let the judge sort it out.


One last thing though... ask your wife/parents/kids how they would feel about your actions in this situation. I'd hate to be the one to tell them you died needlessly because you didnt feel the need to ID yourself.

[superpelly]

I'm surrounded by idiots!! from the Lion King movie.

[armedandsafe]

Brother, sister or grandson, he's going on the ground with the gunholder. Brother is going on the ground first, because he's unarmed and already stopped. LEO is going on the ground because I have the advantage, assuming I'm not already in the line of fire.

Putting them both on the ground should ease the mind of the LEO at least a little bit.

I did draw on two plainclothes officer once and came out on top and ok, because I had the advantage of cover, surprise and their guns were empty. (Long story, but funny NOW.) I drew on another plainschothes cop and ended up helping him out of a dicey situation, because I recognised him after I moved around to his side.

The scene will play out in as many different ways as there are plainsclothes oficers, because each one is going to react differently. That is an opinion and might be worth about the paper it is printed on.

Pops

[shooter_john]

Wow- I have dinner and visit with my wife for a while and now I have become Rambo!
I don't know anyone at TFL personally, and will not dare talk to you like your an idiot or make statements about your level of competence in your profession like a couple of people here have done, but there seems to be a great lack of knowledge in how LEO's are trained in some of the replies to this topic.
To think that you are going to give orders to a police offer who is involved in a situation and make him do what you want is quite... Rambo-esque?
I'm gald to see that there are some logical thinkers in the bunch who would choose to observe the situation and then get involved if necessary rather than just shooting a police officer. If you pay attention to what is going on, I don't think it could take more than a couple of seconds to determine a legit LEO from BG.
Unfortunately, it is a little harder to trust people anymore, so LEO's and even more so RESPONSIBLE armed citizen's must be on their toe's more than ever. Know what you're getting into before you open fire on someone who has ID'ed themself as LEO and appears that they are legit. That being said, I would hope that said LEO is acting professionally and as courteously as you/ the person he is dealing with will let them.

To: Bruchi
That is a seriously bad situation, but if it played out just like you said it did, then I think that I would be fairly confident that I was indeed dealing with a fellow LEO. If he wasn't, we would would've probaly gotten into a gunfight before any of that conversation took place.

And finally...
One of you RAMBO's reply to a Police Officer's order or Verbal ID with 'We'll see about that!' and then let me know how that goes for you!

[shooter_john]

Ok- Sidenote from me, AKA Barney Rambo Fyfe. I apologize for assuming intelligence- but If I had to get involved in an off duty situation, I would ID myself both verbally and with my badge and ID before I even drew my weapon if at all possible.
That way when the crazed brother/ bad guy/ itchin to kill somebody Rambo guy comes running around the corner with a gun pointed at me, Me and all of the other witnesses (we're at Walmart right?) can tell the grand jury 'He yelled Police drop the weapon' and he had a badge and ID visible, but the guy did not comply, and that is when the officer shot him.

[Blackwater OPS]

'He yelled Police drop the weapon' and he had a badge and ID visible,

This is SOP, I assumed folks would realize any legit LEO would do this, and I did not include it in my post. Obviously we are not just going to draw our weapons and start pointing them at people with no explaination. I would not do that even if in uniform and having just exited my marked patrol car with fancy flashing lights and everything.

Putting them both on the ground should ease the mind of the LEO at least a little bit.

Keep dreaming.

I'm surrounded by idiots!! from the lion king.

No comment.

I find it interesting that the people who seem most like "wannabe cops" are the first ones to starting bashing LEOs for whatever reason.

[#18indycolts]

whatever BAD things happen because of this seems warranted. The guy gets shot even if he's a cop...sorry for him. You get shot and he is a real cop, sorry for you. I wanna think cops are smarter than to get into a situation like this. But, I'm sorry to say (and yes, I have many a cop friend) some cops, like anyone else are prone to being human and making mistakes.

[SrtDog]

I'm a cop for 10 years now.

#1. I am a staunch advocate for gun rights.
#2. Especially while on duty, I am NEVER putting my gun down.
#3. If someone points a gun at me (like in the Wal-Mart scenario), I'm telling them one time that I'm a cop, and to point it somewhere else. Thats happening while I'm finding cover, and forgetting about that skel I had. After that, someone's getting shot.
#4. If you're off duty, and carrying without a badge, you're wrong.
#5. You shoot a cop, especially one who you know is a cop, you get the needle.

CC is fine. When you start pointing your gun at the police, odds are you're at the very least getting arrested. But the reality of it is you're going to probably be paying some major heath insurance deductables in the very near future.

And if someone really thinks that they can order a cop to drop his weapon, ya been watching too many movies. I would like everyone to ask their cop friends to see if they would drop their weapon if some joe nobody pointed a gun at them while they were arresting someone. When ya do, send me a private message and tell me how long they laughed.

And blackwater, you would without doubt get the needle for shootin a cop who was executing an arrest. Ignorance is never an excuse. Just because you dont know something is illegal does not give you an excuse to commit a crime. (i.e. "I didnt know he was a cop") We're not talking about a Wal-Mart in Iraq, or the wild wild west. Think then act.

Ya'll can flame me if ya want, but I'm just callin it like I see it.

[#18indycolts]

srtdog-very well said!

[Sir William]

I once made a felony arrest while off duty. I was wearing Umbros and a t-shirt. I had my badge and ID card with photo on me as required. My thought is simple, why rush into anything? If the IDd LEO is NOT an active shooter, why make them nervous? Back off, back down and back to cover. Call 911 and explain the situation. Stay on the phone with the TCO. Ask them to have one (or all) responding units to run hot with lights and siren. If you and your brother are calm, the LEO is calm and the coroner collects no body. YOU are entitled to an autopsy for stupidity. Slow down and move to cover, establish 911 contact and simply let things unfold, making things happen is usually bad or fatal. Relax and get the facts.

[Powderman]

1) He is in plain clothes, you don't know who he is, get him disarmed and under control.

Like Erick said, this is NOT going to happen.

We are trained to NEVER surrender your weapon, under any circumstances. Think about it.

If I am holding someone at gunpoint--let's say, a hostage situation--and BG says, "Drop the weapon or I'll kill him/her", the only thing I am accomplishing by dropping my weapon is to give the BG two hostages. Moreover, I have almost certainly thrown my life away, as well as the hostage's.

This is what I would do, if I had someone at gunpoint--off duty--and someone came around a corner with a gun pointed...

BANG!

Here's a test, to be done with a friend with two cap pistols.

Simulate holding someone at gunpoint. Have your friend come around a corner.

Now, as fast as you can, flip your hand to the side, and crank off a round. Don't aim, just do it.

I can almost guarantee that you will get your round or rounds off before the second party can even pull the trigger.

So, what do you do?

BACK OFF. This is what cell phones are for.

Chances are, the LEO has his or her badge in plain view. You just might not see it. Call 911, ask for a priority response.

If the person is a real cop, they will appreciate your response.

If it is a BG, they'll find that their life just got real exciting.

Do NOT show yourself. Do NOT challenge the person. Do NOT surrender your cover.

And keep your sidearm holstered.

[RsqVet]

Doug --- It disgusts me to see you insult and impune the integraty of anyone here, twice as much for a cop that you have not even met or know.

Cops of course are trained to dominate a situation --- that is their JOB -- go into harms way, stop what is happening, take the stories and sort it all out -- to do this they HAVE to take controll, to protect everyone, first and formost themselves, they want to go home at the end of the day. Your compleate and utter failure to understand this is shocking though perhaps is should not be commming from a person who recently wanted to re-write the rules of gun handleing to include putting your finger in the trigger guard!

I personally think that the scenario is a good one and mirriors one of the more difficult ones presents in several classes I have taken.

A few important points :

1. A real LEO should be no danger and is already having a very, very bad day as if it was a UC bust or something there would be more than one of them so you are walking in on an already volitle situation.

2. Something pretty bad must have already gone down for any LEO to have a suspect held at gunpoint --- this is not going to be an first response to say a fleeing shop lifter, a public domestic dispute or argument that an off duty might find themsleves involved with.

3. Most fake LEO crimes occur in places where there will be no witnesses and little chance of the summoning of the real cops, not a Wal Mart parking lot.

4. In the intal response to a situation like this the best inital response of seeking cover, calling 911 and further evaluating is probibly nearly always the best bet -- you are there to track, montor and interveave as needed, you can always draw, and proceed but it's hard to pull a slug back, plus if this is as bad of a situation as you think some cover and tactical advantage of suprise is going to offten help with a good resolution, not hurt it --- sure I am the first to say if you are in the near vicinity of an armed robbery and have a clean shot take it, don't wait to find out if they plan to leave no witnesses, however this ain't that situation, it needs to be figure out way more before you are weapons free.

5. From all the LEO's I have hung with I would say it's very plausable that a badge might not be immediatly evident as a shield on a neck chain, belt or handing from a hip pack just is not going to be that visable except front on which is unlikely the view you will be getting.

That being said there ain't an easy resposne to this and some subjective factors are gona come in (is the supposed LEO holding a hi-point) however it merits prudance more than immediate action

[Chris Phelps]

OK... shooter john and I cleared up our part VIA private message. It appears I am getting lumped in as one of the 'uncooperative' types.

This is EXACTLY how I see it going...

First off... the scenerio started with you walking around the corner to an already drawn weapon. Regardless of weather or not the officer Id's himself to your brother... you were NOT there to hear it.

With that in mind... here goes..


Me: Drop your weapon!!

Them: I am a police officer....

Me: (after lowering weapon) Do you have ID?

Them: *shows me ID*

Me: *reholster and opologize. follow police commands from this point out*



I am not ready to just simply shoot anyone, but to stumble around someone holding my brother, an upstanding citizen, at gun point is definitly going to warrent a reaction other than just standing there and possibly watching my brother get executed.

However... I really feel that if the LEO acts like a professional than everything will turn out OK. I would never respond with "we'll see" or attempt to command someone who has said they were LEO. That would be silly on my part, and definitly a good way to start a gun fight.


The miscommunication, I think, came from people attempting to lump everyone into two catagories. What I was seeing was this...


Me: Drop your weapon!
LEO: *turns and opens fire*


Think about that for just a second. If you believed this was how it was going to happen, would you decide to simply engage without saying a word?




Shooter John... thanks for the PM. I feel a lot better now, knowing you are a true professional, and not someone who is just going to open fire on me.

[bruchi]

Ok I missed the part where we are at a brightly lit Walmart's and there are all this witnesses around and the LEO has already indentified himself, in that situation I keep my gun covert as I am licensed to do and I am calling a lawyer on the cell phone and assuring my brother that everyting is going to be ok, to cooperate with the LEO. Again, handcuffs can be latter taken off.

As I understood this it was more a scenario where you turned around a corner, perhaps at night, maybe even in a dicey part of town, lets say into some deserted parking lot, alley, etc. and some guy in plain clothes was holding your brother at gunpoint, this does not mean necessarily with the gun against my brother's skin, it can be just trained on him, and this person has no visible id making it clear he was a LEO.

That changes things dramatically.

Also I never ask the LEO to drop his weapon, rather to holster it and cuff my brother, perhaps still not a perfect scenario for a LEO trained to never give up his gun and stay in control of the situation but face it, NO ONE that has someone behind him with a gun pointed at him is in control of anything, maybe that's where the Rambo comments come from. This is a battle you already lost, face it. Make the better of it.

To the LEOS here please remember that as I see this scenario. I have you at gunpoint and your back is turned to me, your weapon trained away from me, mine on you. Maybe I have tiny 38 and never shot a gun before or maybe I hae a very reliable 45 with Glassers and I am a well trained and experienced on leave seal, ranger, etc. with a lot of actual battle time under my belt.

Hoping to reach a "happy medium" and what I would consider if I placed myself in the shoes of the LEO a better option than getting shot I would show him that I have a permit for a gun, that I do not have any intention in shooting him but want to protect my brother from an unknown treath, that under the circustances I can't tell just by looking at him he is indeed a LEO, that I do have the drop on him but will let him holster his weapon, cuff my brother and call for backup.

Not a Ramboesque out for a trained LEO but I would think more reasonable than getting blown away for "must follow the book" mentality.

[Derius_T]

There are bad comments and reactions on both sides. This is what we trained for as a nightmare or no win scenario. The thing that disturbs me the most, are the leos on this forum who intimate that they would instantly turn and shoot you. I was trained to always comply with an ID'd LEO, and would want to do so. But if I calmly ask a man or his ID, and he responds only by whirling around and trying to shoot me immediately, I instantly think he is a bad guy and plug him. After all, why in the hell would a real leo whirl and shoot after simply being asked for ID? That is the kind of thing desperate criminals do, and desperate criminals get shot.

Leos have to learn that in this day and age they work among a largely armed populous, who happen to be good guys, and need to drop the "I am god and you will do what I say" attitude. No upstanding citizen wants to shoot ANYONE really, let alone a LEO. But to immediately whirl to shoot when asked for ID FAIRLY SCREAMS Bad Guy to me, and may sadly result in a very bad day for someone.....

[okiejack]

Hypothetically in a few blinks of an eye! Meanwhile I limp out of WalMart trying to remember what my wife sent me to buy. I round the corner not noticing the people with drawn weapons. As I near the standoff my cell phone vibrates. I hear people yealing too but I can't understand what they are saying. (Since I'm pretty well deaf.) I go for my cell phone in my jacket pocket. The suspected badguy (whose really an undercover FBI agent) shouts, does a roll to the right while drawing his weapon and shoots all three of us.

I really enjoyed reading this thread and got to looking at it from my unarmed personal point of view.

[stephen426]

Chris Phelps,

Think about the phase you used upon first confronting the unknown subject with a gun on your brother...

Originally Posted by Chris Phelps

Me: Drop your weapon!!

How do you think the officer will respond to that command? Should he assume you are just a law abiding citizen trying to help out your fellow citizen or do you think he might feel you are an accomplice. Do you really expect him to calmly respond that he is a LEO if he feels you might be an accomplice? I'm not saying he should start blasting right away, but he would most probably turn his weapon on you , announce that he is a LEO and give you a few quick seconds to drop you weapon and get on the floor. If you fail to do so, I would not fault the officer for shooting you. There is nothing Ramboesque about this reaction. You are pointing a gun an a law enforcement officer and for all he knows, you are an accomplice to the man he is arresting.

Think about the situation. The officer should already be tense from making an arrest at gun point. If he doesn't have any apparent back up, do you really expect him to comply with your demands, much less give up his gun and show you ID? The idea is ridiculous. Now if you announce that you are a police officer and that he should drop his weapon, that is another story altogether.

[stephen426]

Derius_T,

You have to take position here. Are you speaking from the point of view that you have already drawn on the armed subject or are you asking for identification before you draw. These are 2 very different situations and warrent very different responses from the armed subject. If you have not drawn, I would expect a reply such as "This is police business. Move on." I would see no problem for the officer to then flash you his badge.

If you are pointing a gun at him, I don't care how calmly you ask for ID. He will most likely announce he is a LEO and order you to drop your weapon and "assume the position" on the ground. Failure to comply and he will most likely shoot.

Here comes the biggest issue. Do you believe the armed subject and do you comply or do you demand that he drop his weapon until his identity can be acertained by calling 911. I don't think this is realistic either.

[Mikeyboy]

We have been going around and around on this one....can we all at least agree that;

1) a LEO will not surrender his/her weapon to an armed civilian during an arrest.

2) If an armed civilian is pointing their weapon at a person claiming to be LEO, they should give him/her a chance to present ID.

3) This situation will be rare because when X sees Y's gun, and Y sees X's guns everyone will start shooting and we are still not sure if Z is guilty of a crime.

[Chris Phelps]

Senior Member

Join Date: 10-31-2005
Posts: 540

We have been going around and around on this one....can we all at least agree that;

1) a LEO will not surrender his/her weapon to an armed civilian during an arrest.

2) If an armed civilian is pointing their weapon at a person claiming to be LEO, they should give him/her a chance to present ID.

3) This situation will be rare because when X sees Y's gun, and Y sees X's guns everyone will start shooting and we are still not sure if Z is guilty of a crime.

Ahh but in this situation... X will see Y's gun... but Y wont know who is behind him.

How do you think the officer will respond to that command? Should he assume you are just a law abiding citizen trying to help out your fellow citizen or do you think he might feel you are an accomplice. Do you really expect him to calmly respond that he is a LEO if he feels you might be an accomplice?

I think he should assume everyone is a bad guy... but realize that there is an armed person behind him and not make any sudden movements.

If I was in his shoes and someone commanded me to drop my weapon I would most likely either A) Announce that I was LEO while not moving, then wait for a response... or I would B) seek cover and then proceed to identify myself. I would not turn around for any reason... this is a good way to get shot. Once I have found cover and identified myself, I would respnd as I see fit, depending on their response.


As a Civilian, I feel that I would not be in the wrong for taking these actions. I would definitly lower my weapon upon verbal confirmation of ID, and upon seeing a badge or ID, either holster my weapon or set it on the ground depending on what the officer's directions were. I wouldnt worry much about fake badges if this was during the day with witnesses around.

This is definitly a bad situation, but a LEO who turns his gun on me is only going to make it worse. After all... do you think LEO's are the only ones who feel threatened by fast movements?