The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 11, 2021, 01:28 PM   #1
BondoBob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2020
Posts: 163
44 Magnum / regular primers ok?

I need to make up some 44 Magnums with 700x. I have been using Trailboss with regular (non-magnum) primers and they worked fine. But the loads are too tame.

Will 700x or ignite properly with regular large pistol primers? Or will I really need to get Magnum large pistol primers? I had heard that if the case fill is adequate you can get by with regular primers. Is that true?
BondoBob is offline  
Old January 11, 2021, 02:23 PM   #2
zeke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 1999
Location: NW Wi
Posts: 1,665
I use regular Fed large pistol primers with medium to fast rate powders in 44 mag no problem, unless you try too light a load. Pretty sure you only need mag primers with most the slowest powders, and a sometimes a heavy crimp can help with the faster powders in large cases.
zeke is offline  
Old January 11, 2021, 03:17 PM   #3
rc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,742
I think magnum primers are mainly needed for very slow pistol powders. You should be fine with regular primers with 700x or Blue Dot or Unique. 800x is a larger flake slower burning powder that doesn't meter as well but is better for magnum loads and can also be lit with standard primer.
rc is offline  
Old January 11, 2021, 04:44 PM   #4
totaldla
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2009
Location: SW Idaho
Posts: 1,280
700x is a fast shotgun/pistol powder and as such will make dandy plinking loads using standard primers.
totaldla is offline  
Old January 11, 2021, 06:49 PM   #5
Shadow9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 3,947
It is not a good idea.

here is a test in 9mm, of small pistol, small pistol magnum, and small rifle. pressures were nearly identical. As I understand it, generally, only difference is primer cup thickness with magnums being thicker to help withstand the higher pressures. using a standard primer with a full power load could result in a primer rupture...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGVR...ature=emb_logo
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.
Shadow9mm is offline  
Old January 11, 2021, 07:34 PM   #6
sparkyv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2, 2015
Location: Deepinnaheartta,Texas
Posts: 318
You are GTG with LPP using 700x or Trailboss BondoBob.
__________________
μολὼν λαβέ
NRA Life Member
sparkyv is offline  
Old January 11, 2021, 08:11 PM   #7
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,677
Quote:
But the loads are too tame.
700x is a fairly quick powder suited for producing light to mid range loads in .44 Magnum. It is NOT suited for heavy magnum loads. Standard primers are fine. Magnum primers are a waste of magnum primers.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old January 11, 2021, 08:14 PM   #8
cdoc42
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,674
"But the loads are too tame."

You need to change powders - H110 comes to mind -and re-test your assessment of "tame."
cdoc42 is offline  
Old January 11, 2021, 08:48 PM   #9
rclark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2009
Location: Butte, MT
Posts: 2,614
Given that 700x is ranked 15, while trail boss is ranked 27 on one burn chart I was just looking at..... Your going backwards. You need at least a medium burn powder like Unique (rank 45) or True Blue (58), or Power Pistol (49) to up your 'power'. No magnum primer needed for any of these powders. If you want to experience max recoil, then 2400 (76, standard primer), H110/W296 (87 Magnum primer needed) will get you there. I find shooting 10g of Unique under 240g SWC a good combination. 8.5g of Unique under the 240g SWC will duplicate the 'Skeeter' .44 Special Load which is quite a bit more than your Trail Boss loads. I am not into elbow/wrist/knuckle hurting territory, so I stay away from 'max loads'. I like to enjoy my outings...


FYI, which primer used is never about the cartridge.... it is the powder being used. There is only handful of powders where a magnum primer 'should' be used.
__________________
A clinger and deplorable, MAGA, and life NRA member. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Single Action .45 Colt (Sometimes colloquially referred to by its alias as the .45 'Long' Colt or .45LC). Don't leave home without it. That said, the .44Spec is right up their too... but the .45 Colt is still the king.

Last edited by rclark; January 11, 2021 at 09:00 PM.
rclark is offline  
Old January 11, 2021, 09:07 PM   #10
BondoBob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2020
Posts: 163
Thanks for all the great info. According to that video we can use magnum and small rifle primers in place of small. That should help with the primer shortage.
BondoBob is offline  
Old January 12, 2021, 01:29 AM   #11
cdoc42
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,674
^^Yes, but in the .44 mag you'll not be using SR, SRM or SR primers. You'll need Large Pistol or Large Pistol Mag, depending on the powder used.
cdoc42 is offline  
Old January 12, 2021, 11:44 AM   #12
Bayou
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2016
Location: SE Louisiana
Posts: 300
The use of 700 x in 44 mag will probably make nice plinking loads at lower velocities. The powder is much too fast for true magnum velocities.

700-x is my go to plinking powder for pistols. I routinely load LPP 45 acp loads with 700 x. So, to answer your question as to whether LPP will ignite 700 x, the answer is definitely "yes".

Bayou
__________________

Bayou
NRA Life Member
"Keep Calm and Reload"
Bayou is offline  
Old January 12, 2021, 11:48 AM   #13
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,022
While that video is suggestive, this topic can be complex. First, different primer makers don't use the same strategies in making magnum vs. standard primers. Some just use larger quantities of the same priming mix in both while others use a standard priming mix quantity with added fuel substances to increase gas output. As a result, the testing done with one brand and size of primer can't be counted on to be universally applicable. Second, you don't want to extrapolate from 9mm to any other cartridge. A very common event in short pistol cases is the primer unseating the bullet ahead of the powder burn getting well underway, resulting in more burning space. QuickLOAD's author points out that magnum primers can actually get lower velocities in some instances. Bullet unseating is a common cause of that in small cases (talk to anyone who has tried various primers in the 22 Hornet for a strong illustration of this issue). In the larger powder space of a 44 Mag, or other long pistol cartridges, that is not normally something that happens.

While it is very unlikely you would damage a gun with a primer swap, take them like any other variation in a load, reduce charge and work back up. Having a chronograph is really useful for this as you can normally just work back up to the same average velocity you got from the other primer.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is offline  
Old January 12, 2021, 12:59 PM   #14
hdbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Posts: 297
I use Winchester Large Pistol Primers, made for both standard and magnum loads. hdbiker
hdbiker is offline  
Old January 12, 2021, 01:20 PM   #15
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,486
Elmer Keith had fewer choices and was mostly a Hercules loader, Bullseye, Unique, and 2400 as indicated by caliber and desired velocity. He did not, would not, use Magnum primers even for 2400.

As I have said, I saw no difference in velocity by primer in my usual 9mm load; except that Remington 1 1/2 was a LITTLE faster than the other six types and brands.

We are warned not to use large rifle primers in handgun ammunition; that they are taller than large pistol primers and the resulting high primers will risk slam fire in an automatic and drag on cylinder rotation in a revolver. And not fire at all due to thick cups.

I tried that, too. I applied a rifle primer pocket uniformer to some .45 ACP brass, seated WLR in half, FedLR in the others. They seated flush and all fired in my Caspian 1911 with 19 lb mainspring. A lot of labor but if that was all you had and you wanted to shoot some, it would be worth a look. Unlike 9mm, I had seen a difference between standard and magnum large pistol primers, so I would load well down if pushed to such measures.
Jim Watson is online now  
Old January 12, 2021, 03:00 PM   #16
Longshot4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2014
Posts: 868
Elmer Keath was a tough guy when it came to extra heavy pistol loads back 50> long years ago. I would not be starting off with his loads for a beginner.

Make sure you go over all your cases well for size shape and length. I suggest picking up primer pocket uniformed so your primers seat fully... Length is important for a consistent roll crimp. H-110 works well for me in my 10 1/2" Ruger Blackhawk and Ruger 77/44 bolt gun. Bullets from 200gr. to 240gr. work well also for the above weapons. Use 44 Mag. Data from several manuals. I suggest primers from Rem. Win. CCI in Large pistol or Mag. as the manuals suggest. For plinking if you can find some copper plated lead bullets are my favorite.

Of course work up your loads.
Longshot4 is offline  
Old January 15, 2021, 01:50 PM   #17
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,022
I forgot to mention, which primer you choose is usually the one that gives you the most consistent velocity. That's based on the assumption consistent velocity is reporting consistent ignition. You don't normally need to worry about consistent velocity for the purposes of bullet drop difference at handgun ranges, but inconsistent ignition can be accompanied by small delays that have the same effect as lock-time variations, tending to open groups up by allowing the muzzle more or less time to move before the bullet gets out. In theory, if you have absolutely perfect trigger control and follow-through and a perfectly stable position, that doesn't matter. But how often do we get perfect in the real world?
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is offline  
Old January 15, 2021, 07:40 PM   #18
cdoc42
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,674
"But how often do we get perfect in the real world?"

I would have to opine, every time I hit the target in an appropriate spot, regardless of group size.
cdoc42 is offline  
Old January 15, 2021, 09:01 PM   #19
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,022
I suppose, at that moment, whether it is perfect shooting or perfect luck doesn't much matter.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is offline  
Old January 17, 2021, 10:09 PM   #20
Swampduck
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2017
Posts: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdbiker View Post
I use Winchester Large Pistol Primers, made for both standard and magnum loads. hdbiker

This. And there are better powders than the 700x and 800x powders for 44 mag. They work. But tend to not only drop a bit poorly- they also tend to fly around and make more of a mess while loading IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Swampduck is offline  
Old January 18, 2021, 01:34 AM   #21
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,677
Quote:
which primer you choose is usually the one that gives you the most consistent velocity.
For some of us (BEFORE there was a shortage) which primer we chose was more a matter of which brand was suitable and on the shelf, and if there was a price difference.

In the 70s when I started loading, I lived in NY and used mostly Rem or Win primers, because they were everywhere.

In the 80s I moved to the west and since then have mostly used CCI, again, for the same reason. I've mostly stuck with those, because I could, and because changing to something else meant dropping down a bit and working the load back up for safety and why bother doing that (and "wasting" bullets) when I already had tested proven loads as long as I stuck with the same primer and other components.

For the .44 Magnum, I use magnum primers for magnum loads (2400, W296 mostly) and standard primers for everything else (Unique mostly). I used to chronograph loads, now I don't bother. Several years of testing showed me that what I get is close enough to what's in the books for practical use, and differences from the book numbers are within the range of differences between individual guns.

I have a S&W M29-2, a Ruger Super Blackhawk, Desert Eagle, and a 10" T/C Contender barrel in .44 Magnum. In the past I've also had a Ruger Vaquero, a Marlin Carbine and an LAR Grizzly in .44 Mag, but let them go over the years as excess to needs...(ja, seems dumb today, but made sense then...)

Keith proved you don't need magnum primers to light off large charges (20+gr) of 2400, but since the books recommend them and I have them I use them. I always use magnum primers for W296, H110.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08941 seconds with 8 queries